It also depends on what you mean by operations. Operations can mean what methods you use to authorize trains to move on the main track or it can mean how you route the individual cars on the layout.
Kalmbach offers several books on various operations. There is the railroad industrial and operations SIG group on Yahoo groups. It is my experience that railroad operations are rarely discussed on any of the lists other than the OpSig Yahoo group.
The major N American methods of controlling main track authority are timetable, train orders, double track, CTC (centralized traffic control), track warrants or DTC (direct traffic control). Each of these methods have their own benefits and challenges. many modelers use a "mother may I" verbal method to tell trains where and when to go. A lot of the methods are condensed or simplified for model RR use.
For car forwarding, routing the cars, the goal is to simulate the patterns cars would move over the portion of the railroad you model. Typically there are 3 methods of doing this, some sort of marker on the cars, a "car card and waybill" or a list system. Each has its benefits. Some methods are supported with computer software, some are totally manual systems.
Each choice is era dependent and there are multiple variations of how detailed you want to get. Some people use a car card system and don't even worry about car numbers. Some people have all the prototype waybill information down to the weights. Your choice.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
vipertodd wrote:Any suggestions on the best way to provide fairly realistic operation to a railroad?
Why not start by showing us a plan of your layout?
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Quick, Henry, the hammer! Got to get the lid on this can of worms!!!
Without being the least bit facetious, I can say:
Ever since Doug Smith first wrote about car card/waybill operation back in 1960, there have been a plethora of car routing systems designed and described (including coded thumbtacks stuck in holes in car roofs.) I am NOT going to describe mine, which includes such niceties as an individual schedule card for each specific train as part of the card deck for that train.
What I would strongly suggest to the beginner is - KEEP IT SIMPLE! Bells, whistles, frills and complications can be added as the skill level increases and the need manifests itself.
The obvious question; Does anybody actually do what I described above? Guilty as charged!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - operating the prototype's timetable 24/30)
Operations Special Interest Group ... useful quarterly magazine, low dues
OpSIG forum on YahooGroups
Gateway NMRA ops links
My own modest Introduction to Ops pages
A thread from this site discussing the above link
Another item from my site describing fun operations for the solo operator
Tony Koester's Kalmbach book Realistic Model Railroad Operation is a good beginning reference, well worth the price, IMHO
General advice would be to start small with the basics, then add complexity and challenge over time. That reduces the MTTF ("Mean Time to Fun")
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I have a point to point RR and it is 8' x 12' with about 50" of mainline and a large yard at one point and a smaller yard with a large industrial area and coal mine at the other point. Does this help?
And which operation are you interested, how to coordinate and direct the movements of trains over the main track or how to direct or coordinate the movement of cars between destinations.
How are you going to get three trains across a single track main over a mountain with just one helper availible?
Those kinds of questions makes Dispatchers. Is it a first class train? Or a second section? How about a MAIN train? Gives a Dispatcher a headache. Heck how about all at once? =)
vipertodd wrote:I have a point to point RR and it is 8' x 12' with about 50" of mainline and a large yard at one point and a smaller yard with a large industrial area and coal mine at the other point.
I hope that is a misstype and the mainline is more than 50 inches long. In this scenario, I don't see any purpose at all for the second small yard. Is there anyway you could pretend the small yard is more industries?
I suppose that the large yard could be used for pre-made trains that arrive to the small yard. The small yard makes up trains to go to the industries. Cars from the industries are brought to the small yard, classified into trains and sent back to the large yard.
For this operation I would think that a simple card operating system would work.
vipertodd wrote: I have a point to point RR and it is 8' x 12' with about 50" of mainline and a large yard at one point and a smaller yard with a large industrial area and coal mine at the other point. Does this help?
Did you have a chance to read any of the links I posted? An hour or two spent with that material might give you some basic ideas. From that you could come up with specific questions. I think you'll find folks are better able to help you if your question is more defined.
Another thing that would help others help you is a simple sketch of your layout.
vipertodd wrote:I guess both. I want to be able to direct freight from industry to industry as well as train movements from yard to yard. Does that make since?
Take each one separately.
For moving the cars there are basically three types of systems. Those that put some sort of marker on a car, those that uses a "car card" and those that use lists. The basic intent of all three is to assign a destination to each car. Car cards are probably the most popular method. Each car on your railroad has a car card. MicroMark sells packets of car cards or you can make them from heavy paper (67-110 lb stock) Take a piece about 2" wide and 5 " long and then fold the bottom 1 1/2 inches over and secure it on the sides to form a pocket. Many people use a word processor or spreadsheet program to print car initials and numbers and the car type on the top of the car card instead of hand writing it.
For each shipment you have a "waybill". A small card about 1 1/2 in wide and 3 in tall. There are four places you can write destinations on the waybill, two sides and a top and bottom half. A waybill is placed in the pocket of a car card and that gives the car a destination. By writing different destinations on the 4 positions and by turning the waybill over and upside down you can put up to 4 successive destinations or "moves" on a waybill. Think of your destinations like you address an envelope. Don't make each step in the journey a destination or move, make the final step the destination.
The nice thing about car cards and Wabills (CC&WB) is that there are many many ways to organize the moves and almost any level of detail is possible, from very basic to very detailed. Plus the good news is that if you make the cards yourself, it can be done very economically.
The next thing you have to do is decide what trains you want to run. There are 3 basic types of freight trains. Through freights carry cars between yards and junctions. They set out "blocks" of cars, that is groups of cars going in the same general direction. they generally do NOT switch industries. The next set of freight trains are local jobs, they spot and pull cars from industries. The last type of train is a switcher. They process trains, that is they disassemble trains, sort the cars and then reassemble them into new trains. Sometimes people call locals "switchers" so the line can be blurry, but if you conceptualize them as those three types it will help you organize your operations.
Normally on a real railroad a local moves a car from an industry to a yard, the switcher switches the local and makes a through freight, the through freight carries the car to another yard where another switcher moves it to a different local and it is spotted at the destination industry.
Real railroads have a "transportation plan" which are the schedules or lists of the trains they will operate. You can make a list of the trains you will operate also. It can be very detailed, down the the times it is supposed to be at each station and what type of engines it has or it can be very basic , just listing where the train starts, where it stops, what order it operates in the session and what job it does.
As far as main track authorities go, there is a whole range of options. The person who directs traffic on the main track between yards is the dispatcher. Everything from basic verbal systems (sometimes knicknamed "mother may I") where the dispatcher just tells each train where to go and when to full centralized traffic control signal systems to complete timetable and train order systems with colck, operators to copy orders, timetables, rule books and paperwork. You can also adopt any of the more modern systems such as track warrants or direct traffic control (DTC) that are simpler verbal directives (but weren't used by real railroads until the 1970's and 1980's).
Lots of options. Read all the links you can. Read all the books you can. Don't be afraid to try one and expect for your methods to evolve.
cuyama wrote: OpSIG forum on YahooGroupsGateway NMRA ops linksMy own modest Introduction to Ops pagesA thread from this site discussing the above linkAnother item from my site describing fun operations for the solo operatorTony Koester's Kalmbach book Realistic Model Railroad Operation is a good beginning reference, well worth the price, IMHOByron
Hi Byron --
Have read the stuff above (well - only a few posts in the Yahoogroups forums), but still feel like I need a little advice on how to adapt this to my layout.
You write "First step, decide (roughly) how many cars on average you wish to appear at each industry each session".
I am still a little confused about this step. I figure that a session for phase 1 of the layout (see figurer below) is pretty much going to be one train in, one train out, since I won't have any real staging for phase 1.
An arriving switching train will have to be staged on the mainline at the front of the layout just having arrived from the yard before the start of the session, and the session will end with the switcher ready to bring out the cars to be brought back to the yard.
An arriving or departing train can max have 9 cars if I am going to be able to switch cars in or out of the industries:
The absolute max capacity of the various destination tracks, using 40' RR cars is a total of 14 car spots at the industries, like this:
In addition, the two industrial yard tracks on the left have 6 spots, which can be used for temporary storage while picking up cars from the industries or setting out cars for the industries. Or for a _couple_ of cars set out off spot.
Btw - I am planning for some staging - in phase 2. Like this:
Each of the 4 staging tracks for phase 2 will have a capacity of 7 cars (or 6 cars and one engine).
But how would you start planning to set up a system of 4-way car & waybill cards for phase 1 here ?
Smile, Stein
Picking the region you are in wherever you are and tracking down the raw materials needed by each industry.
Some cars will go back and forth constantly to the same place for more loads.
Other cars might come in from the opposite coast of the USA or even out of Canada for the needed raw material. When empty, they go back to the yard for re-direction to a shipper that is loading BACK to that car's home rails or nearly so.
Coal Mine.
Power plant.
Step one. Coal car is empty. That waybill should show it consigned to the coal mine.
Step two. Upon arrival at the coal mine, it takes one ops session to "Load"
Step three. The new ops session will show that coal load going to the power plant.
Step four it should arrive at the power plant and be unloaded. Ready for the next ops session back at step one.
The problem is researching an area of the USA to find a suitable shipper/reciever and or invent your own.
I use micromark's card system with the 3 slot boxes marked Spot (Set out), Hold and Pick up. That way the coal car will arrive on one ops session and be set out on the power plant siding. That waybill is moved to the HOLD slot so that tomorrow's crew will leave that car alone while it is being unloaded. At the end of THAT session the waybill is moved to the pickup slot telling the NEXT OPS session crew that the coal car is empty and ready for pickup.
Confused yet?
In the meantime there are additional coal cars floating about the system with thier own cycles feeding the hungry powerplant.
steinjr wrote: I am still a little confused about this step. I figure that a session for phase 1 of the layout (see figurer below) is pretty much going to be one train in, one train out, since I won't have any real staging for phase 1. <snip> An arriving or departing train can max have 9 cars if I am going to be able to switch cars in or out of the industries: But how would you start planning to set up a system of 4-way car & waybill cards for phase 1 here ?
I wouldn't. With as small a layout as you have 4 move waybills would be overly complicated and aren't necessary.
I would create a car card for each car.
I would create a waybill for each SPOT.
The first operating session I would pick a waybill for each of the 9 cars in your train. Then I would spot them.
Before the next session I would remove the waybills from any of the cars that have been "loaded" or "unloaded". I put those waybills with the other non-used waybills. From that collection I would draw 9 new waybills for my train. Every car without a waybill is an outbound, spot the cars with waybills.
Repeat each session. You will never over spot an industry and you will vary which industries get spotted every session.
steinjr You write "First step, decide (roughly) how many cars on average you wish to appear at each industry each session". I am still a little confused about this step. I figure that a session for phase 1 of the layout (see figurer below) is pretty much going to be one train in, one train out, since I won't have any real staging for phase 1.
Actually, in a "closed system" like your small layout, I think Dave H. has it right ... 4-cycle waybills are probably more than you need. His suggestion of single-use waybills is great for a layout like yours.
On my own small switching layout I've used similar simple 1-move waybills, which worked fine. Later, I made a series of three interleaved switchlists just for something different, but the simple waybills as Dave described worked just as well (or better, since there was more variety).
Start small, keep it simple, add challenge as you get some experience.
dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: I am still a little confused about this step. I figure that a session for phase 1 of the layout (see figurer below) is pretty much going to be one train in, one train out, since I won't have any real staging for phase 1. <snip> An arriving or departing train can max have 9 cars if I am going to be able to switch cars in or out of the industries: But how would you start planning to set up a system of 4-way car & waybill cards for phase 1 here ?I wouldn't. With as small a layout as you have 4 move waybills would be overly complicated and aren't necessary.I would create a car card for each car.I would create a waybill for each SPOT.The first operating session I would pick a waybill for each of the 9 cars in your train. Then I would spot them. Before the next session I would remove the waybills from any of the cars that have been "loaded" or "unloaded". I put those waybills with the other non-used waybills. From that collection I would draw 9 new waybills for my train. Every car without a waybill is an outbound, spot the cars with waybills.Repeat each session. You will never over spot an industry and you will vary which industries get spotted every session.Dave H.
Trying to summarize the system you describe in my own words, to see if I understood it correctly:
1) A waybill in this scheme in principle represent a destination (a "single car parking spot") on the layout, not a specific load to be delivered. The waybill might in this operating scheme more accurately be described as a "destination slot card".
If a waybill is in play, then the corresponding single car parking spot on the layout either contains a car (which is loading or unloading), or a car is on its way to be set out at that single car parking spot.
2) When setting up for a session you first decide (in some way you do not describe) which & how many loaded/unloaded cars presently at industries that are released by the customer prior to the operating session.
You then take the waybill/destination out of the car card for the cars released and put these waybills in the stack of waybills/destinations available for delivery.
That kills two birds with one stone. Now car cards on layout without waybills shows which cars can/must be pulled. And the locations which will be pulled is also available for inbounds, making it possible to both pull a car and spot a car in a given car spot.
3) You then pull some number (a maximum of 9, since that is how many cars will fit on the inbound track) of waybills representing single-car destinations for inbounds.
You then select (in some way not described) what kind of cars you should deliver to these destinations.
4) Ready for operations. Car cards with way cards in "inbound track pile" represents cars to be delivered. Car cards without way cards in "on layout pile" represents cars to be picked up.
Obviously would work. Mmmm. Some modifications I would consider (Guess I am too dumb to do the right thing - start simple and master that before making it more complicated ...)
Grouping some single-car destinations - e.g. create multiple waybills saying "deliver to any available tank farm loading rack position" or "deliver at outermost available position team track" instead of waybills saying "deliver to team track car location 1", "deliver to team track car location 2" and "deliver to team track car location 3".
Could also be modified by having more way cards that read e.g. "team track" than there is available locations on team track - so you once in a while get overspotting/needing to leave cars off spot. I don't mind at all (while playing at being a local switcher crew during my operating session) if industries gets over spotted - ie that some "other person" has ordered more cars than can be spotted at the correct delivery location.
That just creates a welcome extra challenge for my simulation/game - I'll just deliver the cars to an off-spot location (one of the two industry yard tracks at the left end of the layout - which can hold a total of six cars, but also will be needed for temporary storage while swapping outbounds and inbounds) or take the extra car back me on the departing train (if I have room for it).
Either way the cars left on the industry yard tracks can be spotted on the correct destination track or be picked up for the outbound train during the next operating session.
Mmmm - my two main questions are:
1) How do you decide _which_ cars the industries release on any given turn/session ? and
2) How do you decide on a reasonably prototype-like mix of car types to be delivered ?
Smile,Stein
cuyama wrote: steinjr wrote: You write "First step, decide (roughly) how many cars on average you wish to appear at each industry each session". I am still a little confused about this step. I figure that a session for phase 1 of the layout (see figurer below) is pretty much going to be one train in, one train out, since I won't have any real staging for phase 1. Actually, in a "closed system" like your small layout, I think Dave H. has it right ... 4-cycle waybills are probably more than you need. His suggestion of single-use waybills is great for a layout like yours.On my own small switching layout I've used similar simple 1-move waybills, which worked fine. Later, I made a series of three interleaved switchlists just for something different, but the simple waybills as Dave described worked just as well (or better, since there was more variety).Start small, keep it simple, add challenge as you get some experience.Byron
steinjr wrote: You write "First step, decide (roughly) how many cars on average you wish to appear at each industry each session". I am still a little confused about this step. I figure that a session for phase 1 of the layout (see figurer below) is pretty much going to be one train in, one train out, since I won't have any real staging for phase 1.
I really like your San Jose Shelf Switcher (and the Oakland Harbor Belt layout, there is a link from the San Jose layout web page to the OHB layout web page). Very neat!
And a look at the dimensions of your drawings is almost enough to make me reconsider ythe H0 vs N scale issue again. But alas - my eyesight and big clumsy fingers will keep me in the H0 camp
Anyways - I also noted in passing your point about identifying cars by color/label only, not car number, if the number of cars to be switched is pretty small. Good application of KISS principle - don't make it any harder than it needs to be for what you want to accomplish.
You mention having three interleaved switchlists for the SJ layout. I am a little intrigued by the word interleaved (woven together, right ?) in this context. Does that mean that each switch list start from where the previous switch list left the cars ?
You also mention having seasonal switch lists. Does that mean you have a set of three interleaved switch lists for summer, a set of three interleaved switch lists for autumn etc ?
Or am I putting way to much emphasis on the word interleaved now ?
steinjr wrote: Mmmm - my two main questions are: 1) How do you decide _which_ cars the industries release on any given turn/session ?
1) How do you decide _which_ cars the industries release on any given turn/session ?
Pick 9. Works just as well as any other method and has the least set up time.
Take all the car cards, put them in a deck, shuffle them and take the top 9. put the remainder back on the layout.
Build a spreadsheet you run once a year that uses a random number generator to pick which spots to pull.
Roll dice.
Spend hours researching each inductry and form a matrix of which inbound commodities in which ratios generate how much of which outbounds in which quantities. Develop lists of how the shipments should be arranged and in what order they should occur based on the duration and frequency of each session, then apply a factor to vary the inbound arrivals of commodity based on the distance they have to travel to get there.
Personally, I would just pick 9. 8-)
The mix of cars is determined by what the industries use. If you don't have a meat processor or a stockyard, you won't see any stockcars.
You can just pick the cars.
You can write which cars apply to which spots on the waybills so when you pick a waybill you have to use one of those car types.
You can develop a spreadsheet that uses random number generators and IF() statements to randomly pick the car types from the options for each spot. You can further adjust those numbers to favor certain car types if you want to slant the mix.
Spend hours researching each inductry and form a matrix of which inbound car types in which ratios generate how much of which outbound car types in which quantities. Develop lists of how the car typess should be arranged and in what order they should occur based on the duration and frequency of each session, then apply a factor to vary the inbound arrivals of commodity based on the distance they have to travel to get there.
Personally I would just pick the cars.
dehusman wrote: steinjr wrote: Mmmm - my two main questions are: 1) How do you decide _which_ cars the industries release on any given turn/session ? Personally, I would just pick 9. 8-)2) How do you decide on a reasonably prototype-like mix of car types to be delivered ?Personally I would just pick the cars.Dave H.
Okay. Here is what I have decided to do, based on the advice I have gotten so far.
1) Loads to pull: First throw a six sided dice. Die roll 1=pull 6 cars, 2=pull 7 cars, 3=8 cars, 4-6=9 cars. Then shuffle the waycards of cars at industries and pick out the chosen number of cards.
Why not pull 9 cards every time ? I want a little variation in the number of cars to set out and pick up - with a small chance of ebbs and flows in the number of cars on the layout over time. I am simulating/playing at being the crew of a local switcher - I want to have deliberate control over how to pull and set out cars, but not over which cars should be pulled or set out.
If I do the same when deciding how many cars to deliver, it should provide a little bit more variation than always 9 out, 9 in, without getting too extremely about details of how long it took to unload various types of cargo, transit times and what not.
2) Types of cars - I'll combine the idea of listing on the waybills the types of cars that can be delivered, and throwing a die to decide which of the possible types it will be (in those cases where several types of cars can be delivered).
Thank you both (Dave and Byron) for your advice.
steinjr wrote: I really like your San Jose Shelf Switcher (and the Oakland Harbor Belt layout, there is a link from the San Jose layout web page to the OHB layout web page). Very neat! And a look at the dimensions of your drawings is almost enough to make me reconsider ythe H0 vs N scale issue again. But alas - my eyesight and big clumsy fingers will keep me in the H0 camp Anyways - I also noted in passing your point about identifying cars by color/label only, not car number, if the number of cars to be switched is pretty small. Good application of KISS principle - don't make it any harder than it needs to be for what you want to accomplish. You mention having three interleaved switchlists for the SJ layout. I am a little intrigued by the word interleaved (woven together, right ?) in this context. Does that mean that each switch list start from where the previous switch list left the cars ? You also mention having seasonal switch lists. Does that mean you have a set of three interleaved switch lists for summer, a set of three interleaved switch lists for autumn etc ? Or am I putting way to much emphasis on the word interleaved now ?
It's been a fun little layout to do something with while I work on the OHB. And I doubt that you are clumsier than I am (in fact, it's hard to imagine anyone clumsier than I am -- and I wear progressive bifocals). I just had to go to N scale to fit what I wanted in the space I have available. If I had a lot more space, I'd probably be in S scale, even though the selection of models is much less than N or HO.
Yes, I'm using the word "interleaved" to indicate that the three switchlists are sequential ... the ending position of one is the starting position of the next. There are only three switchlists at this point, March, July, and September. That seems to be enough variety since I don't operate it that often while working on the larger layout.