Layout suggestions needed: Calling all experts or creatives Take a shot

[Anonymous]

Hi,, I'm building my first layout in 30 years and my first that is not an HO on a 4x8.

Because of space restrictions it is N scale and a wall mounted shelf type layout. I completed the Basic Benchwork this weekend, and have a loop of unitrack up to get my Running trains Fix. All is well, I plan on adding a 2" foam base, and then using Woodland Scenics Risers etc.

Here is What I basically Have:

http://www.saycheesephoto.com/model_trains/basiclayout

My goal is an Anthracite Region RR based on the Reading. A coal hauler. I want to be able to continously run 2 trains to amuse myself and visitors, but also have switching and real operation when that gets boring. I would like to have the two loops or whatever on two different levels, by that I mean seperated by 1-3 ". In my home area the Reading and Pennsy ran along the creek seperated by about 20-30 vertical feet. The Reading was right along the creek, the Pennsy took the high road. I want two coal mines, a small company town, the feeling of Mine country appalachia style. Tunnels and trestles would be great. The layout height is 50". I like the Basic loop I have but it's just a starting point, I'm open to all suggestions. I will be using Unitrack. I was able to have trains running in about 20 minutes, no derailments, I like that. It is basically 10 long by 24" wide, but the far left end cuts down to 22" wide because It has to clear a window. There is a small "L" 15.25" by 24". I also made a small dogbone on the far left to increase the radius to 13 5/8". The max width at that dogbone is 33". I have thought about adding a yard off of the "L" but It needs to be removable because there is a closet door right off the "L". All dimensions are caused by restraints in the room.
Since it is mine country, and I really don't know what I'm doing I'm open to a 3% grade to get to the mine spurs. So please fire away. Control will be Cab control with Blocks, Don't have the $$$ for DCC right now.

Thanks, Dave

[Anonymous]

Hi Dave,

That sounds like a lot of stuff, even in N, for only 10 feet of shelf, plus a bit. Maybe you want to cut it down to one mine, and one destination industry, with the mountains and town in between.

Having a yard or some other staging for the trains might be useful in terms of setting up the trains to run when you want to "operate" versus just running around the loop.

Your link does not work properly for me - all I get is garbled text. I am using Win 2000, Netscape 7.1, and a high-speed connection... Would be useful to see what you have in mind...

Lastly, DCC is more affordable than you think. By the time you buy all the electronic supplies (switches, wire, 2 or more power packs) and so on, and wire all the blocks into the layout, you will have spent as much as a good starter DCC system like Atlas Commander (made by Lenz) or Digitrax Zephyr. Both these systems can be found in Canada for just over CAN$200, so they must be well under US$200 by now. To get two top quality powerpacks, you are looking at about that anyway (according to MR ads).

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Andrew thanks for the feedback. The link works for me Just checked it. Win2000 and IE5.5 As far as DCC I already have (2) MRC TECH II power packs and a better Spectrum Power pack. Bought them all for $15 or less, so I'm set there. None of my engines are currently DCC equipped, though 2-3 are DCC ready need the decoder installed. I will GO DCC later I'm sure. I hope to actually post a photo tonight to go with the diagram.

Thanks again. Dave

[Anonymous]

Hi Dave,

IE was the fix. Netscape not looking at your picture correctly for some reason.

The bridge is a cool idea across that corner. Just make sure that you can reach (or otherwise obtain access) into that upper right corner - it is a long way from the aisle.

My first thoughts would be to put the mountains and mine to the right, where you can take full advantage to create an awesome setting for the bridge. The town/industrial area can go to the left. That way too, you maintain a bit of access to that window, and you can make the mountains higher without blocking the light.

Keep at it with the paper and pencil, and maybe something will suggest itself to you. Put down the areas needed or even footprints of the buildings you want, and go from there. You might check out the Walthers web site to see what sort of buildings and other structures are available that you could use.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

I am thinking of your freight pattern from the mines on down. I think if you position your mine (One big mine may be easier than two small hard to get to mines?) in such a way that your traffic will go from one end to the other of the layout using Masonjar's ideas as scenery.

You can have a interchange track somewhere with the "summit" between it and your town. This will provide you with more traffic variety such as reefers (your townsfolk gotta eat) and other cars for the needs of your region.

I too run DC on my HO equiptment. I am beginning to consider converting some to DCC and using a DCC power system such as the digitrax from the beginning because the wiring and associated problems probably will become a problem in the future.

Good Luck!

[Anonymous]

If you want to run two trains at once, maybe put in a second loop and passing tracks? A coal region will be in the mountains, so you can blend different track levels into the scenery, and have different spurs at different elevations. But if you want to keep a "once-through" type of design, then it's going to be real hard to do that in your space with one side of the layout up against the wall.

I agree with Andrew, keep tinkerin', and look at other layouts , even layouts of different sizes, and you might find a piece of one that would work in yours.

---jps

[Anonymous]

One idea I have for your coal hauling theme is to move the moutain towards the center. Then you can place the mine complex on one side and the receiving industry on the other. This will allow you to place a hidden 2 track staging type yard inbetween the industries. One track for the loaded train and the other for the empty train. Pull the loaded train from the hidden track, past the loader and on to the destination point where the loads can be shoved underground and the empties pulled back to the mine. Wash, rinse, repeat as needed. You could extend the mainline a bit by looping the mountain. The hidden tracks could also be used to complete the loop for continous running.

My 2 cents
Jay

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the great ideas. Here are some Pics that may help you see what I'm up against. Hope it helps. Dave

http://www.saycheesephoto.com/model_trains/Layout_Pic.jpg

http://www.saycheesephoto.com/model_trains/Layout_Pic2.jpg

http://www.saycheesephoto.com/model_trains/Layout_Pic3.jpg


I'm sold on the Unitrack because I have a fair amount of it. I bought a pile locally from a guy getting out of N Scale, and I bought another group off of Ebay., and then some new stuff at the LHS. I'm also sold on DC for now. I purchased (2) MRC Tech II power packs for under $15 and a Better Spectrum power pack came with the Unitrack. Also while 3 of my 5 engines are DCC ready they need decoders and the other two would need hacks. Keep those cards and letters coming. Thanks, Dave

[jhugart]

I used Unitrack on the small layout I'm working on for my son. I'd recommend a layer of foam over your shelf and you can glue the track to that. There's a recent Model Railroader book that waxes rhapsodic about the Woodlands Scenics foam system, and I intend to try it for my next project after the current layout is more complete.

I wouldn't get too involved in running two trains at once on a single loop of track. You would need at least three blocks, if not more, to make sure you keep things going right. Given the space, you might be better off working the layout as a diorama of a mine area off a mainline track, with a yard for a coal dump.....there's a book I have at home on Railroading in West Virginia, focusing on coal, that has a lot of good information. I'll try to remember to post that.

Anyway, don't get too ambitious. It can get overwhelming. Good luck!

[jhugart]

The books I had in mind:

Appalachian Coal Minds & Railroads by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. TLC Publishing, Inc. Route 4 - Box 154, Lynchburg, VA 24503-9711 (looks like it was published in 1994). ISBN 1-883089-08-5

Basic Scenery for Model Railroaders: The Complete Photo Guide, by Lou Sassi. Model Railroader Books (Kalmbach). (Published 2002). ISBN 0-89024-422-7

The first book basically shows how the coal industry and the railroads inter-related. Lots of good pictures, even ending with the delivery to home and office. Some maps, at least one building with scale drawings for modelling.

The second book has some good ideas on general landscaping. Having tried some plaster shell, I think I'll do these techniques next. It _is_ true that scenery techniques evolve over time; if you have a shelf-layout, using a lightweight base like foam wouldn't hurt.

I'll repeat the idea that you should pick more of a diorama feel, otherwise you'll crowd too much into a small space. Consider it this way: You get this one looking good, you may find that you can add a module for more interest, later.

Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Well, when you're talking small N-scale layouts and a coal-mining theme, you're talking my language! While in college studying architecture, I constructed a 3.5' x 5.5' layout which featured two independent (or linked) mainline loops, a 15-car capacity coal mine, a return loop, a hidden passing siding, seven different bridges, and a large Point-of-Rocks Maryland style junction depot, with a few small industry spurs thrown in. To get to that point, I had to spend the better part of the two months prior to the 6-month co-op assignment, just drafting plan after plan after plan. I came up with many viable options, but fell in love with that one for all its operational potential.

I've tried just one pass at a layout according to the dimensions you give (and the photos), and I've managed to come up with something that comfortably reflects a scene of Reading low by the stream and Pennsy higher up, with plenty of bridges and tunnels and two coal mines, an area for the mine town and a depot on the lower "Reading" main, plus a return loop which doubles as a staging or fiddle track. The only thing is that it is one long loop, rather than two distinct ones, but this is in keeping with your well-intentioned preference for 13-5/8" radius minimum. I have planned it so that in a couple of locations you can use some really broad radius curves, though I don't know exactly what UniTrack components to use; mine is only a pencil sketch. Let me try to describe the concept:

Essentially, imagine taking the around-the-perimeter loop that you have, and elevating the front part of it high enough to clear the lower track, i.e. about 2" or 2.5". Then, imagine reaching back and grabbing the lower rear main and tugging it forward, creating a broad convex sweep up into the center foreground. At the same time, you pu***he high front line towards the back, forming a broad concavity. On the right end, I would locate the 27" diameter loop (with its ascending grade) as far forward as possible, so that it has tangent points essentially where you've shown that bridge cutting across the corner in your photo, and the other tangent close to the middle of the 24" table depth. Doing so allows the lower line to be of a much smoother radius, and affords long enough straight tangents between all the curves in order to place a switch or two. Immediately after descending the right side loop and ending up about 1 foot out from the back wall, add a turnout and begin a passing siding; you should be able to get about 4 feet of clear passing siding along this lower main line. This siding will join back to the main at the rear on the left side, but here I would suggest using a crossover so that the passing siding actually continues on to become the hidden staging and return loop track. Beyond this crossover, the return loop track would descend on a tiighter radius, while the mainline will rise on its 13-5/8" radius; at the front edge of the layout, where your photos show the left dogbone curving back into the straight front benchwork edge, there should be enough vertical clearance gained to duck the staging/return track under the high main. Then, the return track can asecnd again to get back up to where it will join the double-track lower main.

This creates a busy-looking junction on the lower line, a great place to put a depot. There are opprtunities for sidings here, perhaps just a generic team track will do. Getting back to the main line, it continues to climb and curve until it is running at a 45 degree angle to the rear wall, the reverses its curvature to start to form the concave high line. It will bridge over the low line, and at the same time I'd suggest making the bridge long enough to also bridge over the creek you'll be placing aside the lower main line (to its rear). On the left side of this bridge, throw in a switch and create your first coal mine, located essentially in the center of the left-side loops. On the right side of this brisge, you'll add another switch somewhere in amongst the broad radius curvature, which will begin a short branch line which will need to rise just a bit higher, to reach a second coal mine located above the right-side loop. The mine town should be built in the scenic real estate located to the rear of the branch line switch, and perhaps alongside the rising branchline trackage; you may build most of this as flats against a backdrop.

The high main will continue on, but start to descend after this branch line switch. It will bridge over the lower main again and join up with the tangent to the right side loop, just where you've got your bridge showing in the photos, although the lower main is about 8 inches in from the 24" table edge at the point that they cross. Thus, if you want a bridge that starts basically where your bridge does now, it will end up being a nice long one. To make this make sense, you can take the creek that meanders alongside the lower main under that main (via a culvert or ballasted-deck bridge, since the tracks are curved) just in front of and parallel to the higher main. Once the stream has crossed from the back side to the front side of the lower main, you can have it snake in under the higher line to justify that long bridge.

Both the left and right-side loops should be in tunnels, especially the right side because of the mine located right above it. On the left side, you'll need access to the crossover which joins the return track to the main, but beyond this you could either have a two track tunnel portal or just a high enough hill as a view block (which I would prefer). The return track needs to get underground in order to pass beneath the rising main in a plausible manner, so there needs to be a mountain in the rear left corner in any case.

Negative points about this design: the staging track is not level, though it slopes downward from either direction to a low point near its middle. Runaway cuts of cars will thus collect at the hidden tunnel portion. To deal with this, an access panel in the front layout fascia can make for easy access, though vertical clearance is still tight. Another negative: almost no level track anywhere, aside from the coal mine spurs themselves. If you carefully layou all of this out, you may get 3% grades to work, but more likely you'll end up iwith 4% grades in places. However, with a 48" passing siding length, you'll be running trains of about ten to a dozen cars at most, with two diesels pulling, so steep grades shouldn't be too much of a problem. Yet another negative: I am unsure of the limitations of UniTrack geometry, so there may be aspects which need revision to conform with what is available. And another negative: some of the bridges need to be on curved track lines, which may require scratchbuilding or kitbashing of available bridge models, especially ones which are part of the UniTrack lineup. Now, I'm one of those modellers who consider this to be a good thing; my little layout I mentioned at first is largely a showcase of customized bridges. And one final note: all these critical gradients mean that you'll have to build a subroadbed which is elevated above the benchwork you've already created. This is actually how I have built my layouts, first creating a level solid surface and then cutting out foam board to elevate the track to varying heights above this. I prefer using 1/2" foamcore which I can cut out with my X-acto, then elevating it with scrap blocks of foamcore, and finally filling under it with expanding foam insulation (weight it down with encyclopedias to prevent warping due to the expanding foam). The table height you have would be the stream bed elevation, in essence.

Sorry I can't provide a graphic with this, but see if you can get this to work. It has scenic integrity and is based on your vignette description, and can be operated either as continuous-run loop or as an out-and-back mine turn, serving two distinct coal mines.

[Anonymous]

Avondale Guy, Thanks for the lengthy and well thought out response. While I'm a photographer and work in a visual field, I did miserably at 3D drawing in Tech school and I'm haveing a hard time visualizing some of this. Could you either scan and post your drawing or snail mail it to me and I'll scan and post it for the good of all.

I've definately thought about tunnels on both ends for the purpose of mines, but I thought would they mine and tunnle through the same MT ? But for a model RR it makes sense.

I look forward to hearing more. This weekend I laid down a base of 1" Pink Foam over my roadbed, and also purchased some woodland scenics 3% risers to play with. I'm making some progress. I've also been given the go ahead to take up 6' more of wall space. I need to span a closet, so it will need to be removable, but this gives me 6' more to get up to the grade.

Thanks to all. I'll post pics when I start laying track. Dave

[CBQ_Guy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhugart

The books I had in mind:

Appalachian Coal Minds & Railroads by Thomas W. Dixon, Jr. TLC Publishing, Inc. Route 4 - Box 154, Lynchburg, VA 24503-9711 (looks like it was published in 1994). ISBN 1-883089-08-5

The first book basically shows how the coal industry and the railroads inter-related. Lots of good pictures, even ending with the delivery to home and office. Some maps, at least one building with scale drawings for modelling.

Good luck!

Dave,

There is also a video available on Appalachian Coal Mining and Railroading from Green Frog Productions. And it's on sale, I see. Only 15 bucks! Check out:

http://ss02.lynk-systems.com/greenfrog/html/product62.html

Enjoy!