Group,
Just started planning my layout. The room is 24x31 I made up a plan in RTS Freeware from Atlas. Here is a bitmap image of the layout. What do you think?
Sam
For the yard on the left, I would make it a parallelogram(?) in shape. So I would change the bottom ladder so the main exits on the right and the ladder goes up and to the left, and pull it down or stretch it as much as you can toward the bottom. That way all of your yard tracks would be about the same length.
It also looks like there might be an access problem in the roundhouse area and the two yards(?) there. (actually the space between them) Looks like it is quite a reach there even though there is access on both sides
For more comments, you may want to post some of the switching areas by themselves so they can be seen better.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
That is my kind of layout, but it won't find favour with many who might answer you. It would be characterized as a railfanning type of layout with little operational value other than your passing siding on the right and the yard, plus the service area. Unless I am misreading it entirely. But I like it.
The only thing not clear to me is accessibility; how will you get from place to place...ducking and scooting between bench components? Also, it appears to me that your aisles are a bit thin.
First - Where is the entrance door, and does it swing into the space?
Without looking at the track plan (about which I cannot comment without a detailed knowledge of your prototype and intended operations) the aisles caught my eye instantly. Unless you have staircase access the duckunder aspect will get old quickly - as in right now if you are (or ever become) an arthritic old coot with very limited flexibility.
Since you have the space, your planning should begin with the 1:1 scale people. Short reaches and no duckunders will make (Great) Granpaw a happy camper, and aren't that restrictive to track planning. Designing that way also makes executing the design a lot easier.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - with walk-in aisleways in a double garage)
The entrance will be on the lower left with a lift out or a drop portion of the layout. I plan on having several more sidings for other industries. Yes I am concerned about the reach for the turntable area bit I gotta have it. I am modeling a place called Lawrence Junction that is near New Castle PA my grandfather worked in that yard/ roundhouse. It wa a PRR line and there is numerous other possibilities to interchange with the NYC and the P&LE. This is my first draft of the layout so I wanted to get some input before I start building. I am plannning on having the layout height pretty high to keep things more at eye level.
I would have to say you have oriented tha layout towards running trains as opposed to prototypical operation or switching.
You will regret having two separated aisles.
The staging yard (assuming that is what is its on the left) needs to have its shape changed or neds to be flipped so the ladders break away from the aisle and then move the ladders to exit the curves on either end.
The yard near the turntable isn't really usefull. the tracks are too short, there isn't a run around and no switching lead.
The turntable feeding off two sides of the loop isn't very prototypical. Its also in the middle of the widest benchwork which means access will be a bear.
Without anymore information, I can't really see a clarity of purpose or operation (then again having a colored background and the fine grid make it difficult to see details of the plan.)
If you are wanting to just run trains then i suggest a couple true double track loops that share a staging yard. Go with DCC and you can hands free orbit numerous long trains. If you were planning prototypical operations you need to define where and what you want to do because its not clear and doesn't look like it will do it.
I suggest developing a list of "givens and druthers", that is a list of the things you want, the locale the minimum radius, the standard radius, switch sizes, era, etc.etc. and use that list to design off of.
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I suggest you build a much less ambitious layout. You will likely save a lot of money and grief if you do. After you've gained additional knowledge about railroads, layout design, and experience in layout contruction and operations, you will be in a better position to conceive and build a satisfying layout occupying your large space. Most of us mortals need to construct at least a couple or more "learning" layouts before reaching a level of basic competence.
Mark
Yea, I totally didn't see the two separate isle ways. Bad idea.
I know the last thing that you want to hear is - start over. However, let me offer a couple of suggestions.
The bench work should be 18 to 24 inches wide so that you can reach everything comfortably. Make the bench work in the shape of an 'E' with the openings facing down. Design the mainline in the form of a dog bone. Use a two track mainline with a single track return loop at each end (you could also double track it and use crossovers) of the 'E' (left and right) On these return-loop ends, the bench work will have to be wider, and you might have to provide a center access from underneath. The center leg of the 'E' can be a peninsula four feet wide with a scenery divider down the center starting at the upper wall and coming about half way down. On the end of the center peninsula, put the turntable and roundhouse. That way you have a lot of room for it but have the access that you need too.
Start with this basic shape and then work in your main yard, other towns, and industries. This way you have a layout that you can walk in and out of with out any duck-unders, so you can follow a train around the entire mainline. You also have the room that you need for the large engine facilities, plus you get it out in the open where visitors will see it better.
Maybe you could do something similar to what I did:
The layout I'm working on has a double track main with about as long a run as I could fit in the available space (videos in my signature), no duckunders,grades, and staging for four 30 car trains. I s'pose you could call this a railfan's layout, as it's good for watching trains run, but not much in the way of operation, except for engine swaps on the main near the engine terminal. All parts of the layout are within easy reach(except for the part along the east wall just behind the turntable0. Since you have more room than I do, you could probably do better than I did.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
first thing i do when looking at a track plan is start in a yard and follow around where a train would go . your layout gives you all kinds of ways to get from a yard back to the same yard which is something that you won't see often in a real railroad , mostly there's just one way to get from one place to another . i know most of us make it possible to run a train around the layout and come back to where you started but i think one should attempt to make the layout look like point to point like the real thing . unless your thing is to run trains around in circles .
try drawing your plan out as a straight line as if it was on a map , you'll see the connections you have either don't make sense or wouldn't be possible .
ernie
PRRT1MAN wrote: Group,Just started planning my layout. The room is 24x31 I made up a plan in RTS Freeware from Atlas. Here is a bitmap image of the layout. What do you think?Sam
I assume you are using at least two duckunders here. I would suggest that you try to eliminate them if at all possible because they tend to be inconvenient for those who have trouble crawling under them. You might better off making those into two peninsulas bridged by removable bridges.
Irv
Sam,
IMO there are SIX MAJOR problems with your trackplan:
1. duckunder #1
2. duckunder #2
3. aisle 1 physically seperated from aisle 2.
4. aisle 2 physically seperated from aisle 1.
5. very poor/difficult turntable and roundhouse access..just asking for frustration.
6. aisles too narrow..
you can do SO much better with your space! :)
sorry..but IMO thats just not a good plan at all..far too many unnecessary problems, you could eliminate ALL of those problems and have a layout you really enjoy, rather than a layout you end up hating..
keep aisles to 3-feet wide, and sections of layout to 2-feet deep, peninsulas can be 4-feet wide if there is access from 2 or 3 sides, (so every point on the layout is 2-feet or less from an edge)..your turntable/roundhouse area could fit on a peninusla exactly as you have it..but you want access on 3 sides of the peninsula..that could be the "main feature" of the layout, and stick out into the room from the edges..
Scot
PICKY! PICKY! PICKY!
Sam, I see several potential disasters in your layout plan. I presume that your are shoving a 24 X 31 layout into a 24 X 31 room and therefore--except where there is a door and I am sure there is one somewhere--this layout is going to fit flush against all walls. Your grid measures to 3 inches and this configures a 36 inch minimum shelf width.
UNLESS YOUR NAME IS SHAQ OR YAO THAT'S AN AWFUL LONG WAY TO REACH!
A considerable amount of your trackage runs within a foot or so of those room walls and at several locations along this perimeter track you have switchwork; switch=grief! You need to narrow up these outerperimeter shelves to an accessible 24 inches; this will be done by changing the parameters of those inside operating locations increasing the inside platforms by 24 inches which will give you benefits of scenery and structures.
You have one other problem; necessity mandates a duckunder just getting into the layout and I don't care how you cut it a certain amount of ducking is going to be required between those two inside operating pits and sooner or later you are going to begin booting yourself in the rearend for that second pit. I will gee-go-guarantee you that you will never design a layout with two duckunders again.
I suspect you are designing a Horribly Oversized layout; I know people would kill for a 24 X 31 layout space. Your room has outstanding potential for a walk-in layout and my advice would be to go back to the drawing board and design such.
A compliment: even as flawed as your design might be you have at least avoided cramming, a noticable shortcoming on many first layouts.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Oh to have that much room. Looks to be the kind of layout I can only dream about. Lots of time watching the trains run. I would agree with some of the comments however as to how far you have to reach, etc. Also I would find a way to avoid duckunders. Great if you're young, not so great when you get up there in years. Good luck. I'd like to see some pictures of construction, etc. when you get to work on it.
Dave in Maine
'there's something happening here, what it is ain't exactly clear' Modeling the Hard Knox Valley Railroad in HO scale http://photos.hardknoxvalley.com/
The one dimension we haven't discussed is vertical - how high is the ceiling?
Reason I ask is, have you ever considered trying the mushroom idea. Not only does it allow comfortable aisleways and short reaches, but, by stacking sceniced layers and accessing them from different sides, there is far more surface available for trackwork and the rest of the visible world. Just Google Model Railroad Mushrooms and a whole new realm of possibilities will open up.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I strongly suggest you get a copy of John Armstrong's book Track Planning for Realistic Operation and read it before building. While this layout appears to offer some fun operation with numerous routes, I think you'll find that the frustrations will quickly outweigh the fun. If you only ever read one book on model railroading, this is the book.
Enjoy
Paul
Sam--
While I like your basic idea, the duck-unders are going to be a MAJOR problem, believe me. My first big (garage layout) had two duck-unders, which were just fine for me at my age back then, but almost prohibitive for several older guys who liked to come over and help me run my trains.
When I tore out the original layout and rebuilt it, I made sure that there were NO duck-unders, only continuous aisles. I couldn't have planned better! Take a look at your plan again, I have a feeling that you could adjust your track to make those two aisles joined up and offer a lot more operating room. And see if you can get that turntable a little closer to a normal reach in case of electrical or derailment problems.
But generally speaking, it looks like (with some adjustments) that you could have a lot of fun operating this railroad.
Just my
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Sorry for not responding to all the comments I have been without power and internt since Sunday eve. I like all the suggestions and appreciate them. That's why I posted. I dont want to make a huge mistake.... I have all the time in the world to re-design since I haven't started yet. I do like the idea of an "E" shape. As for the one comment about the turntable/ roundhouse area and the 2nd line coming from the back of the house. Well I have documentation of the layout of Lawrence Jct and that is it exactly! I will gather some more thoughts and back to the drawing board.
PRRT1MAN wrote: As for the one comment about the turntable/ roundhouse area and the 2nd line coming from the back of the house. Well I have documentation of the layout of Lawrence Jct and that is it exactly! I will gather some more thoughts and back to the drawing board.
If you look at Lawerence Jct on Terraserver:
http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=17&X=1380&Y=11338&W=3&qs=%7clawrence+junction%7cpa%7c
you will see the roundhouse sits in the middle of a very well defined wye track and although you can't see the track out the back, the only place it could go is to one of the north or east wye leg.
On you layout plan the roundhouse does not sit in the middle of a well defined wye. the back connection connects to a through mainline that is not obviously associated with the area around the wye or the roundhouse. That's what I meant by saying that your premise wasn't well defined. I can't tell that the roundhouse is in a wye.
dehusman wrote: PRRT1MAN wrote: As for the one comment about the turntable/ roundhouse area and the 2nd line coming from the back of the house. Well I have documentation of the layout of Lawrence Jct and that is it exactly! I will gather some more thoughts and back to the drawing board.If you look at Lawerence Jct on Terraserver:http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=17&X=1380&Y=11338&W=3&qs=%7clawrence+junction%7cpa%7cyou will see the roundhouse sits in the middle of a very well defined wye track and although you can't see the track out the back, the only place it could go is to one of the north or east wye leg.On you layout plan the roundhouse does not sit in the middle of a well defined wye. the back connection connects to a through mainline that is not obviously associated with the area around the wye or the roundhouse. That's what I meant by saying that your premise wasn't well defined. I can't tell that the roundhouse is in a wye. Dave H.
Birds eye view of the area Dave linked to on http://maps.live.com:
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=qtv7jv891kzv&style=b&lvl=1&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=28181740&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
The wye surrounding the roundhouse is visible.
Maybe you could do something like thisto make the roundhouse inside wye more apparent ?
Smile, Stein
PRRT1MAN wrote:Here is a revised version. I still have not re-done the track work but it gives a bit better insight of my intentions and where the door and lift out sections are located plus a narrrower version of the table in some areas.
Still needs a bit more work.
You asked for a critique of what we think about your presnt layout scheme. I assume this is to be an HO scale DCC layout So here are a few suggestions. and a freehand drawing of my 24'x24' layout. With a 24'x30' area you have adequate room for reversing trains with reverse loops and wyes. You may have the desire to just watch your long locos traverse the same track, but after watching the train repeat the same loop about eighty times, it gets sort of dull. Never pass a wye through a roundhouse. I like the double egress from your roundhouse, but it should be a designated track in conjunction with a drop-off, pick-up yard, so that you do not tie up the mainline. Any yard track should be capable of holding at least ten cars (on each parallel tracks, of nearly equal length.) I like to use Y switches, double slip switches and cross overs within the yard, so that the switchers have access to all tracks without ever going on the mainline. Always have a lengthy drill track (or pair of drill tracks) for building 20-30 car consists,so that you never tie up the main line. With the space you have available, you should include lengthy run-arounds or long spurs to service industries and allow priority train to pass a slower non-priority train. I have 18 routes by which 4-6 trains can simultaneously move about my layout
The California head-on crash would never have occured, with "State of the art" signalling. I use double slip switches or cross-overs with long passing tracks, to accomodate priority trains and allow space for waiting freight. Incidentally, where is the access to your layout from another room, and how do you get from one work area to the other? ( Lift outs, hinged up ordrop-downs, or is it a "duck under", that you are planning ? The 24'x24' version of my presnt layout started as a dogbone along the top (where an N scale loop is now) I built this "preplanned "around the room, garage loft layout, (with inside stairway)., in four stages (with dead spurs to allow for preplanned expansion) Although the aisles are narrow, there is easy access and viewing in all areas. I have scenery on Luan ovals over "duck under" access holes, (in hard to reach ares and removable scenery caps on all mountains and hidden behind backdrops). My present DCC HO layout is divided into four power districts, with each district with a shut off switch and under table "short location lights). The 96 electrically controlled switches are divided between the four operators (or one) with probe control on scale district drawings. Build your layout in small "preplanned stages"! Bob
I don't think you're seeing the disadvantages we are; I guarantee you, if you build the layout the way you describe (even in your second plan), you'll end up tearing out parts and fixing them later--which can be avoided by using a btter plan at the outset.
Here's what you need to shoot for:
One continous aisle. No duckunders. Really. We're not kidding nor being unrealistic.
A reasonable reach--and if you're going to build the layout tall, which I applaud, then your reachable distance is shorter than if it were short and you looked down on it. As much you don't believe us now, I can tell you you'll really regret building a section of layout you can't easily access. That turntable will kill you if you put it where you only have partial access, as it is shown.
You have a great space available--take advantage of it and build a design you will actually enjoy.
Your revision has taken care of MOST of your access problems but unless you modify one or both of those operating wells you are still going to have problems in the vicinity of where you have your roundhouse located.
Also, if you persist in insisting on a duckunder layout you might give some consideration to building high benchwork and using some sort of roll-around furniture--stool;office chair; etc--for movement into and between those operating wells. I have no idea how old you are but as I said earlier those duckunders are going to get old very very quickly.
How are you getting into the central isleway, a duckunder or a swing bridge section? As time goes on you will dislike a duckunder. I am 62 and would not design a layout with a duckunder for any amount of money.
Steve Moore
www.kissmethodinc.com