Harvey,
I would re-design the staging area so that there are no buried turnouts or at least so the turnouts are on the edge of an access area and are somewhat reachable. While hand laid and fast tracks turnouts are very good, even these turnouts may eventually need maintenance (points coming unsoldered from the throw bar, for example) and having them even marginally accessible will help out when the time comes.
IMHO, No doubt that hand laid switches (or fast tracks jig produced) are the best in terms of reliability. However, other posters are somewhat minimizing the time it takes to hand lay switches, even when using the fast tracks jigs. The jigs produce excellent turnouts but do require a certain amount of skill and patience. I have scratch built some turnouts (and other track work) and would definitely buy a fast tracks jig if I were starting to lay track again on my layout, but I would do so with a clear understanding of what is involved in regards to time spent in this area.
I feel that hand laying where no one will see it is overkill. There are so many things to do when building a layout that I think I would rather spend time on other aspects of modeling. I think that one can get excellent reliability without having to hand lay, especiailly if looks aren't a factor. Even hand laying guru Tony Koester has Peco code 100 Turnouts and Atlas flex in his staging.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Guy,
You did a fine job of summing up my original question: what to do for hidden turnouts. However, that said, I also enjoyed all of the discussions about the look, reliability and "ease" of handlaying turnouts. So much so that I will likely try a little handlaying of my own; at least on some up-front trackage. But one benefit no one mentioned about installing store-bought turnouts in hidden staging yards is that you aren't forced to do tedious turnout troubleshooting and repairs while on your knees under your layout. If you have a problem turnout, just pull the bad one out and replace it entirely with another one. You can't do that with handlaid turnouts.
But I can't understand the claims that building a Fasttrack turnout is cheaper than store-bought. I looked up the Fasttracks website and was shocked to find that ONE jig costs about $170 (in HO.) Don't get me wrong, the jig appears to be well crafted and will likely last a lifetime of tracklaying but that's $170 for EACH type and size of turnout. Granted, each jig will build both right and left hand turnouts but while one #6 turnout jig will probably build hundreds of #6 right and left turnouts, how many of us have layouts that could get by with just the one frog angle? If you plan on #8 and #10 turnouts on your mainline. that's an additional $340. And if your yard requires three-ways, slips, wyes, curved turnouts, etc with two, three and four frog angles in each type (and those curved turnouts would require a separate jig for each radius combination!), well all of those jigs could easily add up to several thousands of dollars PLUS the rail, printed circuit board ties, etc. WOW! And of those who hailed that the primary benefit of handlaying is that you aren't limited to whatever sizes and shapes of pre-built turnouts that are offered, then I doubt that they could get by with just one, two or even six turnout jigs for their layouts. I know I couldn't.
I can see where being a club member might benefit here. Each member could buy one type/size and they could all then pool their turnout jigs, thereby eventually having one of every size and type available to the membership. But for an individual living far from the closest club, Peco is starting to look pretty good. :-)
There is no question that the jigs are expensive, the break even point for a single jig, at least in n-scale is probably around 30 turnouts, I'll run some numbers later to see if that's right. There is certainly no payback for buying a jig for just a few of one type. I bought 2 jigs, a #5 for most trackwork in my yards, and a #8 double crossover jig (which can be used to make single turnouts, as well) for the mainline. I hope taht the experience I gain from buiding the 70 or 80 switches that way will help me in building my one doubleslip. If I decide I need any other special trackwork I plan to lay it without jigs.
EDIT:
This isn't to say that the jigs are for everyone. It's just describing how I dealth with the cost. So far, about 15 turnouts in (including the double crossover) I'm content.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
A couple of comments on hand-built turnouts, to possibly clarify some of your misgivings.
1. "Tedious troubleshooting on hands and knees under the layout," simply doesn't happen. Those two curved yard throats (hidden staging trackage) I described are laid on two removable sub-frames. When one requires troubleshooting all I have to do is remove four nuts and carry the whole works to the bench. Switch machine failed? Flip the subframe over and work from the top down, with all electrical connections made at clearly labeled stud-and-nut terminals.
2. "Fast track jigs..." Don't use 'em. Never have. I lay my track to drawn centerlines, straight, curved or transition. Each one is fabricated in place, from plain-jane rail. My weapon of choice is a large flat file, and I usually work against a chunk of 2 x 4 clamped to a convenient spot on my benchwork. Except for some #5 turnouts on tangent track, I have no idea what frog number I have assembled. As long as wheels roll through smoothly, what difference does it make? As for tool costs, I'm sure that replacing my long-nose pliers, diagonal cutters and flat file would leave me with change from a $20 bill, and you can't lay any track without them. Likewise, track gauges are necessary even if all of your track comes out of a box. Exotic materials? Sheet balsa for ties, and small experiment boards (perforated PC board) which, sliced up, each provided me with two dozen throwbars. My rail is mostly salvaged from damaged flex track (deeply discounted at a LHS.) Believe it or not, the spikes are the most expensive 'not used for flex track' products.
3. Time. Granted I have been doing this for a while, so I don't make many false moves. For an ordinary turnout, once the site is prepped (tie end lines drawn on the cardstock that acts as a base over my foam roadbed) I can caulk down all my (pre-cut) ties in a matter of a few minutes, lay the stock rails in seconds (one permanent, one temporarily tacked,) shape the frog points and position them in less than 5 minutes, shape and position the wing rails as quickly and solder the frog about twenty minutes in from a standing start - including a power drop for the live frog. Shaping the points, soldering them to their pivot pins (flathead nails in drilled holes clear down to the plywood subgrade) and attaching them to the throwbar (with shaped wire links) will take about a half hour (my points are undercut, and ride up on the bases of un-notched stock rails.) Add guard rails (and stock rail drops) and in an hour the turnout is mechanically complete and ready for electrical hookup. Detail spiking, everything to exact gauge, might take up to thirty more minutes - about the same time it takes me to install and tweak a turnout actuator. Electrical connections and first op test - 150 minutes from a standing start to fully operational and ready for service.
As a bonus, the specific turnout I need is never out of stock!
I'm not one to , and I'm almost terminally lazy. If rolling my own wasn't simple and straightforward I would use commercial products and accept the cost and limitations. Unfortunately, the limitations would make building to my dream design impossible.
Just my based on my personal experience. Feel free to disagree.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Jeff & Chuck, you have both made good points. In fact, ALL of the respondants have made good points. This has been a good thread. I will continue to remain open minded as I pit handlaying vs store-bought for my hidden staging turnouts.
Harvey
My layout has 125 tortoise powered DCC friendly modified Shinohara turnouts. At one time I had 22 Central Valley turnouts installed. My layout focuses on a big yard, the east end of which has it's ladder on an approxiametely 3 degree curve to the right and yard tracks (11) branching off the left. I was led to beleive that Central Valley (CV) components could accomodate this configuration. After repeatedly rebuilding them to the point that very little was left other than the tie strips and frogs I have given up, ripped them completely out and haidlaid the whole works following Tony Koester article in MR 84. I am hooked on handlaid track. The problem with CV turnouts is that the points are made of some kind of soft metal, the throwbar is a plastic peice that pops out sporadically and the frog cannot be built up again if you file to much away. I still have a few left and in straightforward applications they seem OK. I do not think there is any commercial turnout that you can pull out of the box and get top line performance from. For me top line is slow speed steam switching.
Jon Bratt