Why "scale" can be such a difficult concept...

[jerryl]

Yes, I've seen these cards, but my card has 20.3, HO & inches on one card & it didn't cost anything.    Jerry

[Rastun]

   I made up a card that fits in my wallet. The card measures 5'11 in 20.3. average height for a grown male. On the other side I glued photocopies of 20.3  & HO scales, + about 3 1/2'' of a ruler. covered both sides with clear packing tape.  It's with me all the time & comes in handy at train shows & hardware stores.. Jerry

 

Jerry,

That average height would also depend on the era you are modeling, 1880's to 1900's average grown male was only 5 foot 6 inches. Which could go along way in explaining why some of these old engines and buildings seem to be very cramped  or outof scale to us.

Jack 

[Anonymous]

Vic....my b-day was in Feb and Christmas is coming up.....hint....hint.......

[vsmith]

Jerry havent you seen these?

Comes in most large scales, I have one for 1/20.3 and 1/22.5, they also make 1/24, 1/29 and 1/32.

http://www.thescalecard.com/

http://modelingmadness.com/scotts/accessories/scalecard.htm

 

 

[jerryl]

   I made up a card that fits in my wallet. The card measures 5'11 in 20.3. average height for a grown male. On the other side I glued photocopies of 20.3  & HO scales, + about 3 1/2'' of a ruler. covered both sides with clear packing tape.  It's with me all the time & comes in handy at train shows & hardware stores.. Jerry

[Anonymous]

I agree. However I also carry around with me a model engineer. If I spot an item of equipment that I think might be suitable, I use the engineer as measure. My sentiments "If it lokks right it is right".

Kevins a pretty smart guy....

I'm not. 

Back when I got into the  G hobby I seen some of the scale info but, it was simple for me, I like this engine and it looks good with these cars , thus I'm going to buy them.  As time and age goes on I have learned alot about scale / gauge and understand it,,,but the principle still applies.

This looks good with this and I like that!!!!heheheheheeh 

 

[jerryl]

Reviewers could really do us a favor by giving us some actual measurements. Door openings, Heighth of people. height of barrels etc.   I've seen many reviews of "G" scale items that look interesting, but no way of knowing if they would fit in my 20.3 RR.   Just give us the measurements & we'll decide what scale they are.

   Another pet pieve of mine is the number of scales in the hobby industry.  Some are so close to HO, O, or the many "G" scales but not close enough.  One of the larger RR manufacturers brought out some nice vehicles in 43 to 1 scale & selling them to O gaugers.  There are nice woodie wagons out there very reasonable in 82 to 1 scale...too big for HO.  Last & least are Hot Wheels & Matchbox which are " fit in the box scale"  Manufacturers would sell many more models to cross over byers if they could agree on a few standard scales, preferably based on model RR scales.....My bias    Jerry

[vsmith]

The problem is that the manufacuters use the term "G Scale" to indicate anything from 1:20 to 1:32.   And they don't get called on it.

This person and car are both "G scale", but you might not feel right having them together.

Good example, however I found that even supposedly 1/22.5 figures can be too large for 1/18 die cast cars. Its such a hit and miss situation in large scale. I agree with thos who call G scale GUMMI scale, because like a Gummi Bear things are stretched and squeezed to shape.

[TheJoat]

The problem is that the manufacuters use the term "G Scale" to indicate anything from 1:20 to 1:32.   And they don't get called on it.

This person and car are both "G scale", but you might not feel right having them together.

[FJ and G]

Thought I'd throw up a picture illustrating scale and gauge.

2 steam: O gauge, O scale, quarter inch scale, 1:48, standard gauge 4'8.5"

boxcar: gauge 1, 7/8 inch scale, 1:13.7, 2'gauge

tipper and mine car: O gauge, 7/8 inch scale, 1:13.7, 18"gauge

Notice that the boxcar the mine cars are the same scale but different gauges

Notice too that the mine car and the steam locos are the same gauges but different scales

have a nice day

[Santa Fe Kent]

 

 WARNING: Condition Red; Human Brain on verge of Meltdown!

             Checksum Invalid,  Stop Input: Discontinue Thread!

             Internet Overloaded; Shutdown in Progress.

 

[cabbage]

Here in the Uk -we have all gone our own way -in more ways than one...

O scale is normally refered to as 7mm scale or 1:43 on 32mm track.
1 scale is normally refered to as 10mm scale or 1:32 on 45mm track.

sm32 is 16mm on 32mm track sm45 is 16mm on 45mm track -both are 1:19.1

15mm scale is the scale normally used for LGB based products on metre gauge at 1:22.5 on 45mm track -BUT it is very close to the correct Gauge 3 Scale std gauge at 1:22.6 on 64mm track

This has lead to SEVERAL UK suppliers producing stuff that is suitable for both of the above!!!

Having ploughed through the morass that is the NMRA standards -I can find no match for 15mm or 16mm or Gauge 3 -let alone the great american favourite of 7/8ths scale....

So, yes scale is a very difficult concept -more so when it doesn't "officially" exist!!!

How does it go? Oh yes!

"This is not the Eighth Dimension -this is New Jersery"

regards

ralph

[GearDrivenSteam]

But the gauge isn't necessarily the same. What if a modeler wants to run 1:20.3, but in standard gauge? Or, likewise, what if someone wanted to run 1/29...which is considered standard G scale, but wanted to run narrow gauge. In those two instances, the gauge certainly would not be the same.

[kstrong]

G is not a scale.

Historically, it is. From the late 60s to the mid 80s, "G scale" was just that--1:22.5. The term was coined by LGB as a marketing tool. "G" stood for either "Gross" (large) or "Garten" (garden), depending on which piece of literature you were reading. Half-inch (1:24) was typically noted to be "compatible with 'G scale'," but not specifically called "G scale." 1:32 was still (correctly) referred to as "#1 scale." When Bachmann entered the scene, they chose LGB's established "G scale" of 1:22.5--not the equally common 1:24--for their Big Hauler line, adopting the term "G scale" to their line as well. It wasn't until Aristo-Craft and USA began their lines of 1:29 trains that the term "G scale" began to take on a more generic meaning. It didn't help the definition of the scale that LGB was beginning to produce standard-gauge(ish) models in scales other than 1:22.5, and still calling them "G scale." But yes, it did start out as a specific scale.

Currently, the statement "G is not a scale" is technically correct in the eyes of the NMRA. They group all outdoor scales from 1:32 to 1:20.3 together under the generic "G" designation, while at the same time (in a parallel set of standards) identifies 1:32 as #1 scale and 1:20.3 as "F" scale. They do not mention any scales between those (1:29, 1:22.5, or 1:24) in that parallel set of standards.

NMRA "Hi-Rail" standards

NMRA "Standard" standards

In my opinion, the NMRA has always relegated large scale trains to the world of "toys," and as such has never really known (or cared) what to do with us. That's why the NMRA carries little, if any weight in large scale circles.

So, yes--today, "G" is more of a generic term than a specific scale, and with MOROP's reorganization of the European scales, "IIm" would be the "official" scale designation for what LGB coined as "G scale." But for us old-schoolers, "G" will always have roots to 1:22.5, despite its generic overtones and what this or that group now says it means.

And Pluto will always be a planet.

Later,

K

[Marty Cozad]

G is not a scale.

[vsmith]

Forget the manufacturers coming to any agreement about scale, gauge, or consistent standards for the time being...

Best suggestion is that it still remains the MODELERS responsibility, if they deterimine that if they want to work in a consistent "scale" or "theme", it will be up to them to educate themselves as to what is on the market, what 'scale' it is, and whether it will be appropriate for the "theme" of their roster.

Yeah I know, its a pain but theres sooooooooooooooo much stuff out there that runs the gambit from 1/19 to 1/32 that all runs on 45mm track and could concievably end up coupled together, that its going to be up to the modeler to figure out what will work best for them.

Heres the short list of things I consider:

Scale: 1/22.5 is what I aim for, but I have some stuff thats 1/24 but my LGB Porters are more like 1/18 scale.

Theme: 1930 thru to about 1950, steam and motor units, mostly wooden cars. Western desert narrow gauge mining tramway, but I am also heavily influenced by logging lines.

I have to sift thru the market and decide whats right for me.

So no Geeps pulling mining ore carts on my layout

[Anonymous]

That leads me to my next idea; how about if we forget about scale!

 O guage has done this for nearly a century without any problems!

 

Hello Kent,

 

You're not far off the mark, "O" is an excellent example of having things go sideways.

NMRA "O" scale = 1:48  Naturally on 32mm track which is interesting since 1435mm (4ft 8.5") devided by 48 results in 29,9mm for the track gauge.

 

NEM-MOROP "O" scale = 1:45 on 32mm track. 1435:45=31.9mm not "spot on" but tolerable. 

 

To sum it up, yes "LS" probably took after "O". Lots of funny math! Back in the "dark ages" we used to do calculations with a sliderule. That was a lot closer than some of the stuff that was calculated after the invention of the electronic calculator.

 

Best regards

 

ER 

[Santa Fe Kent]

That leads me to my next idea; how about if we forget about scale!

 O guage has done this for nearly a century without any problems!

[kstrong]

So if the gauge is all the same, but the scale varies....

How about keeping the G that everybody knows, and appending the G for scale purposes:

G20, G29, G32, etc.

I guess that could be confused with Gn3 or similar, but if the "n" is left out, and everybody knows what it is for..... It shouldn't be a problem.

Something very similar to that was proposed maybe 8 or 9 years ago. (LS20, LS22, etc.) I thought it made perfect sense--clear, concise, and easy to understand. It met with little support, and faded quickly from the landscape. Aristo-Craft, Hartland, and a few others jumped on board and ran with it for a while, but ultimately dropped it. Why they did, you'd have to ask them, but the small accessory manufacturers never jumped on board with it--most likely because they were reluctant to pigeon-hole their products to one specific scale.

I have little faith that we'll ever see a clear-cut defining of the scales in large scale. History has certainly indicated a strong reluctance, and I don't think the attitudes have changed.

Later,

K

[GearDrivenSteam]

They kinda do that, in a way. There's G, Gn9, GN15, Gn18, Gn2, Gn30, and Gn3. What I have chosen to do is run 1:20.3, which is Fn3. I'm also probably going to run some 1/29 Aristo-Craft stuff mixed in as well.....yeah I know. Surprisingly though, my Aristo-Craft Lil Critter doesn't look so out of place next to my Bachmann 1:20.3 45 tonner. I was surprised....and pleasantly so. I don't understand all of the different scales in large scale. I just settled on one or two that I think will run together and move forward.

[Santa Fe Kent]

So if the gauge is all the same, but the scale varies....

How about keeping the G that everybody knows, and appending the G for scale purposes:

G20, G29, G32, etc.

I guess that could be confused with Gn3 or similar, but if the "n" is left out, and everybody knows what it is for..... It shouldn't be a problem.

[GearDrivenSteam]

I found this. See if it helps.

Bachmann Big Haulers and some rolling stock 1:22.5

Spectrum series and some of the other rolling stock 1:20.3

LGB 1:22.5

Some of the newer modern LGB equipment is coming in close to 1:29

Aristocraft Modern equipment 1:29

Aristocraft Classic series 1:24

USA Trains 1:29

MTH 1:32

Marklin 1:32

Hartland Locomotive Works 1:24

Accucraft Depending on the line either 1:20.3, 1:24, 1:29, 1:32

[Anonymous]

Thats why we need to call it G gauge.....then ask what scale are you interested in.

 

Hello Marty

 

And the answer will be: "G scale!"

 

Regards

 

ER 

[Marty Cozad]

Thats why we need to call it G gauge.....then ask what scale are you interested in.

[Anonymous]

............................... 

Credit some manufacturers for at least clearly stating (and adhering to) a specific numeric scale. I think that's about as close as we're going to get to any kind of clarification.

........................................................

Later,

K

 

Kevin,

 

When it comes to scale, that is all that is needed: a clearly stated and adhered to numerical ratio.

That allows those who care about scale to choose the right product for the scale they model. Those who don't care will most likely not notice anyway.

 

Best regards

ER 

 

PS publications like GR, and others in the Large Scale field, are doing everyone a service by stating what the scale is, both in the new product section and in reviews. If there is no numerical scale ratio mentioned  by the manufacturer, that is also worth mentioning. An informed consumer is a wiser consumer!

[kstrong]

...So the question I Have is why do we referr to Large Scale trains as G scale when they are not?

The short answer is that "G scale" has simply become a generic term for the large scale hobby, the same way "Kleenex" is now a generic term for any kind of facial tissue. It was the first letter "assigned" to this size of models, so it stuck, and everything else evolved from being "compatible with" G-scale.

The problem is that there's no viable alternative for naming. The term "F scale" has only received limited support from the manufacturers doing 1:20.3. The NMRA's one-time proposed "A scale" for 1:29 never gained any kind of traction whatsoever. But even if these conventions did gain momentum, they'd still fall under the same "large scale/g-scale" umbrella on the hobby shop shelves. It's all "garden railroading," so it'll all be in the same aisle anyway, regardless of scale. Credit some manufacturers for at least clearly stating (and adhering to) a specific numeric scale. I think that's about as close as we're going to get to any kind of clarification.

...if you want to confuse most of us place the same figure in front of each engin.

If you follow the link in the original post, there's a side view with a fireman standing in the cab of the small and medium locos. The Accucraft loco didn't come with a figure, and I didn't think to place an extra one in the cab.

Later,

K

[hoofe116]

Darn you, Kevin! Just when I thought I had it figured out! Seriously, thanks for taking the time to post; certainly one picture is worth a thousand words.

 Les W

[dwbeckett]

I've posted this before. What scale are the cars?

The scale of the cars in the photo are 1:1, on standard gauge track.

So the question I Have is why do we referr to Large Scale trains as G scale when they are not? Scale implys model size compaired to actual size. Gage is the space between the rails. That is why we have so many scales running on G Gage track.

K good photos, if you want to confuse most of us place the same figure in front of each engin.

[DMUinCT]

I've posted this before. What scale are the cars?