R/C for #0 and #1 Gauge Live Steam

[mkblk]

[?] Now that I've started down that long road of Live Steam, it has quickly come to my attention that if you want to run 'em like real trains, R/C is mandatory. So, I have started what I hope to become a "bible" of facts, sources, ideas and open discussion of applying R/C to live steam locos.

Other than having read the fine article by Dwight Ennis, "Adding Radio Control to Accucraft's Ruby", in myLargescale.com I know zilch. It would be really helpful if those of you experienced in this area contributed to this forum. I can hardly wait for the floodgates of information to open.

Enough from me, let's hear from those experienced hobbyists and those that wi***o learn more... [:)]
MK

[Anonymous]

I have radio controlled six different steamers, ranging from a redo of a Pearse "Nevada" to installations from the ground up in my scratchbuilt steamers and those built for clients.

I live in "R/C hell" which is defined as directly beneath a glidepath to O'Hare International Airport where airplanes of all types spew out navigation and communication signals.

I will try from time to time to share things I have experienced, both what to do and what not to do, as time permits.

A couple of things to mention. The primary enemy of all R/C steamers is radio interference. (Aster 'purists' with hands-in-the-cab attitudes run a close second). My first steamer, a Pearse 'Nevada' came from the factory as a radio controlled locomotive. The 'Steam in the Garden' review of this locomotive (I owned the very locomotive they reviewed) took some issue about radio 'glitching' or unintended movement of servos due to stray radio signals. This was an AM unit, probably an entry level Futaba.

Finding the same problems as the reviewer of the locomotive did, I changed from AM to a more expensive but more interference tolerant FM unit made by JR. Note to the R/C newbe: You CANNOT use R/C equipment intended for airplane use on ground models such as cars, boats or locomotives. The FCC prohibits this, model airplane clubs with sophisticated equipment track down offenders, and the fines are stiff. Always specify to your R/C supplier that you want ground frequency operation.

The FM unit solved some of the problem, but a lot of the interference is metal-to-metal contact from the locomotive's moving parts. All of the R/C equipment was located in the tender. When I rebuilt the locomotive as I have several times, I replaced the tender with a scratchbuilt one, ironically with more metal parts, such as wheels, that rub. Most of the interference went away, but those blasted airplanes still were a contributor. I know this for a fact because during the air transport blackout of 9/11 I delibretly went out to see if running would be easier. This was a terrible way to find out, but I determined that airplane navigation and communications were a very significant contributor.

Another way to eliminate the adverse effects of interference is to use what is referred to as a servo 'smoother'. These devices are available from Sulphur Springs Steam Models and are inserted between your receiver and the servo you wi***o smooth out. They slow the response to signals, in a way also creating a 'momentum' effect.

What you need to smooth and the degree to which you need to smooth depends on the type of valve gear you have. A Ruby is a piston valve type locomotive which reverses by means of valves interchanging inlet and exhaust ports. A glitch in the servo controlling this will usually result in a momentary speed change, but little else. Since steam engines are slow to respond to controls anyway, the locomotive mechanism itself helps soften the blow. Ths same is true for oscillating cylinder locomotives. Being reversed by valves, a glitch will for the most part cause a speed change.

It is interesting to note that most piston valve locomotives, your Ruby included, can be run on a single channel. The reversing valve, usually a duplicate of the piston valves found in the cylinders, can act as a form of throtle as well as a reverser. Set your throttle to the maximum setting you wish and use the single servo to operate the reversing valve. Note that there are opposing schools of thought on this, too much to get into in this posting.

If you have mechanism that has "D" valve cylinders, this is quite a different story. Here the valve gear mechanics actually do the reversing by changing the configuration of a mechanical linkage. The two positions are approximately 180 degrees out of phase from each other. Intermediate positions on model valve gear, those between full forward and full reverse are generally not useable on most models. 'Notching up" the Johnson bar on most model steamers usually results in erratic operation. This is what happens on either Walschearts and Stephensons valve gear locomotives. I have both types, and the Stephensons is by far the most touchy. With good sized glitches, both types of valve gear can be momentarially thrown completely out of time, resulting in very erratic operation.

With Walscaerts and Stephenson valve gear, two servos are always required, one for throttle and one for valve gear. In general, a servo smoother is only needed on the reversing servo. I will say that this slow acting reversing servo gets to me while doing switching operations, but it is worth it on mainline running with interference drastically cut down.

With a simple servo setup the easiest way to cut down on interference while running mainline is simply to turn the transmitter off when not giving a command. This is how some of the more advanced units made especially for live steam do it, and you can do it too with an inexpensive R/C car or boat transmitter. As a safety feature, the servos hold the position of the last command given if no transmitter carrier wave is present. The locomotive will maintain the speed and direction you last set until another command comes along.

If anyone has any experience with PCM, please contribute. I have not tried this yet due to cost, but I understand it is even more interference tolerant. PCM units may be tough to obtain on ground frequencies, as most of the PCM units I have seen are for helicopters.

I notice you mention myLargescale.com. The posting software thinks this is a link, but unfortunately it is an incomplete one. You must put the "www." in first, then the rest of the link. Do not end the link name with a period, this throws the whole thing off. What will work is www.mylargescale.com

[mkblk]

Les,

Thank you very much for the excellent response. The "floodgates" have indeed opened! I took your suggestion re the URL and edited my original post.

The information you have supplied is invaluable. It looks like we're on the right "track" here and as more "steamers" provide their insight and share their experiences, we'll all benefit. I plan on printing out each reply and building a general reference work on R/C for live steam.

MK

[Anonymous]

Les Knoll:

Excellent!

I've tried to address this very situation to other Live Steamers here before but you do it so eloquently.

I'm an Aster kind of guy, but not so "purist" as you put it that I INSIST on hands on cab control.

My Solution to the Aster problem has been to still use Aircraft model servos, but that have been modified to accomodate the allowable car-truck toy freqs. for reception.

Got a local "Black Box" guy here that knows how to do this, not me.

Problem is of course that on the Asters, a typical toy Car/Truck servo is not strong enough to operate the steam control valve OR the reversing lever. Especially the Steam Control Valve. It has to be able to be closed tight, AND to be opened to full throttle and Aster builds theirs with close (ergo tight) tolerances. When your willing to pay 3k-4k for a steam loco, you expect to GET your money's worth, and from Aster, you get it. When I'm not running it, it sits in a glass display case in my living room for all to see. You bet I'm proud of it. I built it.

I'm getting ready to tear into the Roundhouse S.R&R.L my loving spouse bought me for my birthday. It comes with RC, but I have a feeling that if I don't like the way it works, YOU are the guy I should talk to. I'm NOT and RC expert myself. I only know how to play with it and hopefully get it to work right.

I have a couple of photos of the conversion I've done on my Aster C&S and would be happy to forward them to you.

Since you ALSO seem to be a guy who is up on your Walschaerts and Stephenson, I published an article to the web about 4 years ago showing how Aster applied the Walschaerts to the C&S with only a slight modification and why it required this modification. It comes with scanned drawings going back to the original Patent by Egide Walschaert, and scans from the Aster manual, reproduced with their expressed written permission to do so. Many people confuse the C&S motion with a Stephenson. It most cretainly is not. It is a Walschaerts and I can demonstrate it clearly. It also demonstrates the clear difference between the two. With the help of a couple of other web sites that I provide hot links to that still work. Many confuse these two motions, even SOME long time live steamers.

If you are interested, I'd be happy to forward it on to you.

Regards,

LDH

[Anonymous]

to Vettbass:
I see you have very fine looking locomotives AND are having fun running them with R/C. You have the best of both worlds, and probably some very well tuned Asters. So glad to hear that someone with these finely crafted locomotives is trying R/C techniques with them. You may have to opt for stronger servos if your throttle valves are giving you grief. Don't know what loco you are referring to, so I don't know what fit problems you may have fitting them in. By the way, that throttle should wear in with time. Also check is there is a tightening nut for the throttle shaft gland, like there is on Roundhouse throttles. This may be able to be loosened without causing undue leakage, and make the throtle easier to operate with a servo.

You do not say if you have tried out your 'Sandy' yet. Hats off to your wife for getting you what you REALLY want! Just a word on what to expect from it mechanically and electronically, Roundhouse locomotives RUN as well as Aster locomotives LOOK. (although both flavors can be made to run and look great).

Would love to get the forwards.

LES

[Anonymous]

Les Knoll:

I'm just getting started on the assembly of the "Sandy" so I have no idea how it runs yet.

Since the R/C comes with the kit, I'll try it out of the box "as is" and go from there.

Yes, the Aster throttle does wear in, in time, and the adjustment for the proper leakage vs. effeciency is one you must monitor over the break-in period, it nevertheless remains a precisely (even more so) adjustment once seated with use.

My experiments with the normal toy car/truck servos came AFTER the shaft "gland" as you call it, had been broken in. (Reaching it's optimum adjustment after the needle valve had seated properly with use.) Hence, I resorted to a solution involving Aircraft servos and the conversion to a black box solution for freq. and modulation requirements.

So far, it works fine in the office, on a test stand, but Mama is still sceptical about running it in the dining room on a sheet of plywood. Just for fun you understand. If I blow it by taking a tight turn too fast and it rolls off the layout onto the floor, well, it won't hurt the loco, but it WILL raise h*ll with the carpet. :-) (a Fire extinguisher is kept handy tho.)

It will be Spring before I take it outside to try the new setup in actual use.

As to the "Sandy", well, like I said, I trust it out of the box until further notice.

Thanx for your GREAT reply.

Regards,

LDH

BTW,

The Aster R/C mod idea is NOT an original idea of mine and I would not want credit for it.

I got the Idea from a guy named Ken Nolan in N. Jersy several years ago, and have been unable to contact him since. E-mail or otherwise. I've been wanting to send him my photos of how I pulled it off, but haven't been able to locate him (the CORRECT Ken Nolan even in web searches,) since we first communicated 4 years ago.

[toenailridgesl]

Gentlemen,
I run an Argyle Bantam with Sabre 27mHz R/C on one channel (the loco is slip-eccentric gearing) on the Toenail Ridge Shortline and have nothing but praise for the system.
For details see here:
http://www.trainweb.org/toenailridge/bantam.html
here:http://www.trainweb.org/toenailridge/bantamcab.html
and here:http://www.trainweb.org/toenailridge/newtender.html
The 2nd channel is going to be used to control a battery-powered B/man Climax.
However, my good mate Tony Walsham fitted his RCS to a magnificent Roundhouse Liberty Belle, complete with sound system, and I have been privileged to see this loco run on Gordon Watson's track (Gordon is Argyle Loco Works in Melbourne, Australia) Perfect control, good sound, good response.

[wa1lbk]

I'm a newcomer to live steam, just having acquired one of the Accucraft 3-cylinder Shays; but I'm also an experienced RC aircraft pilot (10 years) & ham radio operator (35 years). Some of the RC aircraft-style transmitters (mid - to - higher priced ones) can be used on 75 MHz. (legal for ground vehicles such as locomotives) by replacing the entire RF deck (the actual radio transmitting section); on some radios, the RF deck is a plug-in module which can be removed in seconds & swapped out. If you're ordering a new radio for locomotive control, be sure to order it for 75 MHz. The aircraft restriction on 72 MHz. radios is there for a good reason; a typical "trainer" glow-powered airplane can hit @ 60 MPH; a precision aerobatic ("pattern") competition airplane such as I fly can hit speeds of up to 135 MPH, and racing or aircraft of jet models can top 200 MPH - these are ACTUAL, NOT scale, speeds! An RC aircraft out of control due to radio interference can be LETHAL, not only to it's pilot, but anyone nearby. The rise over the last few years in popularity of "Robot Wars" & similar robotic competitions - which mainly use aircraft-style transmitters because of their versatility - has prompted the RC manufacturers to come out with 75 MHz. modules for the better - grade RC aircraft-style transmitters. Bear in mind that should you pick up an RC aircraft transmitter with the idea of changing out the RF deck for a 75-MHz. one, you also need a 75-MHz receiver; it's generally more cost-effective to replace the receiver outright than to try to get a 72-MHz receiver modified (largely impractical, with the SMT construction used in most current RC receivers). Regarding modulation modes, PCM is the most intererence-resistant, & many PCM radios have a feature called :"fail-safe", where the servos will go to preset positions in the event of interference or signal loss; in the case of a live steamer, the fail - safe could be set to close the throttle & set the reverse lever to neutral (in aircraft, usually just the throttle servo is usually commanded to go to idle or shut down the engine - you may still crash, but at least you'll crash "gracefully" ;) - the idea is to at least minimize impact speed). FM (sometimes called "PPM") is fairly close to PCM in interference resistance & usually considerably less expensive; AM radios are the most interference-prone, some of the really cheap ones can be disasters waiting for a place to happen, if you use them in an area where there's a lot of potential interference, such as most large metropolitan areas. Although only 1 or 2 channel ("channel" in RC parlance can mean either the radio's operating frequency or the number of control functions it has - an 8 - channel radio, for example, can control up to eight different functions) is normally all that would be needed for locomotive operations, using a transmitter with more "channels" could open up all sorts of possibilities - remote uncoupling, blowing a whistle (either a "real" live-steam one or an electronic one", ringing a bell, etc. Just so no one gets the wrong idea, I didn't come in here to "rail" (pun intended!) about RC loco engineers using 72 MHz.; I just hope to give anyone who's new to RC a few suggestions & ideas. I also have some reservations about using 27 MHz (CB) frequencies for RC use; it IS legal for ground vehicles, but if you happen to live in an area where there's lots of CB activity, you could wind up with some unpleasant surprises! I'd be particulary interested myself to know what luck people who are using the RCS 27-MHz. radios have had; since the RCS radios are PCM, they might stand up well in this regard, although I 'd like to hear from someone who's actually used them. Tom