Live Water? Need info on pumps

[ttrigg]

Mark:
For exactly that reason I gave my fish a place to hide.  I got a "patio paving stone" (red sandstone, 3 inch thick 2.5 ft wide and 6 ft long.  I cut out slots in the embankment and fitted the stone in so that it became and "underwater bridge" about 16 inches above the bottom at the 4 ft deep section of the pond.  The Koi just love to hide (rest) under the stone.  Even though "my clueless neighbor told me about the coolest looking 'huge bird' that was standing beside my pond," I've not lost any fish to the birds. .

 

BTW the wife was very vocal about not doing it, and she still does not like the looks of the "bridge stone" but loves it because the fish can hide from the birds! 

[markperr]

As a matter of reference, my pump is about 1/2 the size of a standard concrete foundation block.

Trigg, my pump is housed in the skimmer tub on the lower pond and the worst that could happen to me with a broken pipe would be to lose about eight or nine inches of water, so I'm good there.  As for the fish, it's doubtful in the near future that I'll ever exceed my quota.  I have a Great Blue Heron that comes by periodiaclly who sees to that.  Stole thirteen fish from me last year in the course of about four hours.  I was gone to a sporting event and when I got home, my clueless neighbor told me about the coolest looking "huge bird" that was standing beside my pond.  (sigh)

Mark

[Anonymous]

Right again Tom.

Rgds Ian

[ttrigg]

Oh...So how much space and what will my electric bill look like after a month of constant use?

Entirely too many variables in that question.  

Space?       Well now do you plan on a fifty gallon pond, or a fifty thousand gallon pond?  Do you plan on a stream with a foot of drop over a ten foot run? Do you plan on a twelve foot tall waterfall?  Is you pond going to be ten foot deep? Do you plan a wide but shallow pond?  

Electric bill?   Do you plan on having fish?  If not you can just dump in a bunch of chlorine to keep the water clear.  (easier on the pump).  What kind of volume flow are we talking? fifty gallons per hour? five thousand gallons per hour?  Will the pump run 24x7? or just 3 hours a day?

 

Ian:

I know exactly how long that piece of string is!

 

 

 

 

Twice the distance from either end to the middle! 

[imrnjr]

First, it's been my experience that until you get into horsepower rated pumps (motors rated at approximately 700 watts or greater) you would be hard pressed to see a significant difference in the electric bill.  Second if there are no fish put it on a timer to run when your out and around the feature.

Since I have a disappearing fountain, a planned water feature in the train garden, a Pool, and another planed fountain/bog to utilize the pool backwash and have a water well to water the lawn and garden I couldn't sort it out.

Didn't understand the space part of the question......

 

mark

[Anonymous]

How long is a piece of string?

Really much more information si needed about both questions.

Rgds Ian

I can tell you a story about Brooklyn if you like!

[Brooklyn Trolley Dodger]

Oh...So how much space and what will my eletric bill look like after a month of constant use?

[Anonymous]

Horses for courses gentlemen.

Rgds ian

[ttrigg]

   .....  We differ in opinion on the use of submersible pumps, since my water features are much smaller in total size and have little leaf or plant debris.  I also limit the number of fish  based on a ratio of 2-3 mature fish per 150 gallons of volume.
What ever you do pay good heed to TTrigg's advice on the filter because cleaning it regularly is a necessity to have a healthy pond.  Good luck and good fishing!!!   mark

Mark:

OK; I give up! Yes I do have a couple of submersible pumps.  Little ones (fist size) that only pump water up to squirt out of a brass frogs posterior orifice, and other such "decorative water features" (the water never leaves the boundary of the pond).  Submersible for the main filtration system, for me that is a nonstarter!  

About 25 years ago, I had another Koi pond, little over 1,000 gallons.  Submersible pump had done a fine job for several years.  Went away for the weekend and the pipe from pump to filter fractured in a small earthquake.  The pump continued to run, pumped all the water out of the pond, and all the Koi were expired.  

Now the only kind of pump I will recommend, for any water that travels outside the water area of the pond, is a external pump that sucks water from a leaf strainer.  If a pipe fractures, and the pump tries to pump out all the water, it will only drain down to the level of the lower lip on the mouth of the leaf strainer.

BTW, Mark, I have 11 Koi in that 2,000 gallons.  Limiting the number of fish is important to the "mini-ecosystem".  A balance needs to be obtained between water volume, flow rate, number and size of fish, size and number of aquatic plants.

Another recommendation!   NEVER EVER install an automatic pond filling valve.  The pond equivalent of a toilet bowl float valve.  I've had one of those malfunction and kill off the fish.  Always have positive control over water entry into the pond.  

In areas with heavy rain, it is advisable to also have an "overflow" drain that will carry excess water away from the pond.  Thus not allowing any soils, fertilizers, weed killer, etc. from the ground surrounding the pond to enter the pond system.  An added benefit is that since I put mine in, I've not had any flood damage to the GRR from pond overflowing..

As for vegetative debris, I get a tremendous amount blown in from the open "green belt" that crosses behind my house.  That is the main reason for the leaf strainer.  It takes all of fifteen seconds to clean out the leaf strainer.  

As far as pump noise, a good quality pump will make very little noise.  My pump is located about six feet from the dinning room window.  Even with the window open normal household noise masks off the noise made by the pump.

[imrnjr]

Ian -- that is why I like submersibles for the small features I have built over the last few years.  No need to reprime......

mark

[Anonymous]

That business about the ball valves stopping water return; brought back old memories of the water supply situation on my yacht. If you don't have one; when its switched off the water returns to the lowest level and you have to pump it all back up again next time you use it. As well if i remember right, your pump will lose its supply of water and have to be reprimed.

Rgds ian

[markperr]

I also have a submersible pump that is magnetic drive.  Very quiet.  Don't hear a thing.  Runs like a champ.  Definately oversize.  Mine is 3600 GPH, has about a four foot vertical and 20 foot horizontal run.  Figure I've got around 1000 or so GPH coming off the top of the waterfall.

 

Mark

 

 

[imrnjr]

  Can anyone suggest small pumps for live water?

Ball valves should be placed after the pump/filter combination to regulate the volume of water going to the pond.  Also recommend a "back flow preventer" in the line up to the waterfall.  Prevents water back flowing from your waterfall when the pump is turned off.  Do not use a submersible pump!  They all have a filter screen to keep debris out of the pump.  When that screen gets clogged up, and it will, the pump has a hard time sucking the water and will burn out faster.  Any flow restriction needs to be in the return line so that the pump is working under pressure.

If you "over rate" your equipment, you will spend more money to start up, but maintenance costs in time and money will be drastically reduced.  Thus making the pond more enjoyable.

 

TTrigg is absolutely right on the oversizing and valve placement.  We differ in opinion on the use of submersible pumps, since my water features are much smaller in total size and have little leaf or plant debris.  I also limit the number of fish  based on a ratio of 2-3 mature fish per 150 gallons of volume. Koi and natives like black bass and sunfish require more volume than goldfish, and to be honest it may not be legal to place native  (or for that matter certain non-native species) in a decorative water feature in your area.  I don't recommend sunfishes they reproduce at very high rates and will overpopulate quickly.

What ever you do pay good heed to TTrigg's advice on the filter because cleaning it reqularly is a necessity to have a healthy pond.  Good luck and good fishing!!!

 

mark

[ttrigg]

  Can anyone suggest small pumps for live water?

BTD:

How much water are you going to have?  Is it a pond with a waterfall or a flowing river?  

In my case I have a 2,000 gallon Koi pond with waterfall.  I have a pump rated at 4,000 gph.  The pump is one foot lower than the water level and 25 ft away from the pond via 4" PVC.  The water then is pumped through a filter back up to the pond (via 3" PVC) the ~50 ft to the waterfall with an elevation rise of almost 5 ft.  What actually gets to the waterfall is around 1500 gallons per hour.   I got all my stuff from the local pond store.  I knew enough from seeing the disasters of others in my area where they had gone undersized on the pump, filter combinations.  Since I knew I had 2,000 gallons I sized all my equipment to a rating of 4,000 gallons per hour.  

One of my friends has a 1,000 gallon pond with pump and filter system rated at 500 gallons per hour.  He spends about $50 per month on barley and other additives to maintain clean water.  He spends about 45 minutes a week servicing his filter.  With my "over rated" pump/filter I spend exactly 2 minutes and 30 seconds each week on filter maintenance.  I also have an "in line" UV light, which kills off the fee floating algae.  My additives are nothing more than some declorinator to remove the chlorine from the water.  My pond water is always 10 times cleaner than his.   I have had some of my 1:22.5 people fall into the pond at 5 foot deepand have seen tham when watching the Koi long before I ever missed them from the local scenery.

Ball valves should be placed after the pump/filter combination to regulate the volume of water going to the pond.  Also recommend a "back flow preventer" in the line up to the waterfall.  Prevents water back flowing from your waterfall when the pump is turned off.  Do not use a submersible pump!  They all have a filter screen to keep debris out of the pump.  When that screen gets clogged up, and it will, the pump has a hard time sucking the water and will burn out faster.  Any flow restriction needs to be in the return line so that the pump is working under pressure.

If you "over rate" your equipment, you will spend more money to start up, but maintenance costs in time and money will be drastically reduced.  Thus making the pond more enjoyable.

[Anonymous]

I am just getting into this in my reworking of area 1 and i don't know much about it at all.

We are putting in a 600 litres per hour 24 V unit to drive a small rock waterfall type thing we have put in and it has a small fountain in the middle of the pond.

Rgds ian

[imrnjr]

You can spend as much as you want for pumps, some good some better...but I definitely would not utilize a sump pump since they are not designed for continuous duty.

Two things to think about as you look at pumps.  Both effect the size of the pump.  Vertical lift and distance from the pump to the head waters of the live water way.  A 500 gallon per hour pump at 1 foot vertical will be about 25 gph at 5 ft vertical.  Then the linear distance adds to the reduction at about 1 vertical to 20-25 feet of linear in a 1 inch line.  Smaller piping increases the reduction.  My suggestion is to get at least a 1200 gph pump and put a ball valve in the line if the flow volume needs to be reduced. 

I use the pumps they sell at Lowe's Home Improvement, a 1200 gph for about $130, and 1000 gph for about $100 but they have a five year warranty and they warranty them on the spot in the store.  I estimate the 1200 makes about 150gph with a 7 foot rise and 25 feet of 1 inch piping to the filter and water fall.  (by the way I didn't do the math just estimated from experience.)

 

mark

mr

[Brooklyn Trolley Dodger]

  Can anyone suggest small pumps for live water?