Plan for 8' x8' x8' space

[John Busby]

hi guys and girls

I have been granted an eight foot square indoor concession for rainy days and when it is just to hot to play out side.

Any one got any ideas of a track plan to fit that space, I figure start at floor level and work up is going to give maximum track-age I want to use commercial made track for ease of construction

The bench work is literal going to be two sheets of 8 X 4 laid on the floor with skirting board run round it as a kick board.

Starting at that level then working upwards hence the three dimentional space figures.

regards John

 

[vsmith]

8 x 8?

 I'd use R1s to maximize space, could do a cool mining tram or logging line in that space. Going up in that area is going to have some mighty steep grades, keep that in mind.

 Is this going to be a walk around layout or will it be build into an 8 x 8 room? Its important to know wheter you have to plan space for access out of that 64 sq. ft.

[Anonymous]

Hello John,

 

Just one of many possibilities

 

 

 

At 2.3m by 2.3m slightly less than your space 

 

Regards

ER 

[vsmith]

John try here

http://carendt.com/index.html

 

This is an idea from the scrapbook, its N but could be revised to G, heres the scrapbook page:

http://carendt.com/scrapbook/page37a/index.html

All I can say is READ EVERYTHING! from ALL scrapbook issues, and review ALL the Microlayout gallery

This is a treasure trove for small layout planning

 Its the site that gave me the courage to try G indoors, to embrace R1 (or smaller) curves and chuckle at those guys *limited* to 8-foot diameter curves

 

[vsmith]

The Shoehorn Mining co?  

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http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Busby%20Study%20Model.pdf

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This is my take on the plan from Carl's website

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One question is crutial...what are you planning to run on this layout?

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If you plan to run small lokies and small cars the clearances (verticle and horizontal) are easier than if your planning to run a Bachmann Connie on this.

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8 x 8 is very tight as the plan showns. This is an over and under with a very steep grade to get a min of 7 inch clearance at the bridges, small engines might clear 6 inches or maybe even 5 1/2 if carefully done, might be better to take the "layer cake" approach and fit 2 or 3 individual loop levels in the space provided.

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Edit*

What in the hell is up with this dam format again??????????

Its compresses my post and the result is far harder to read. format!

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PS I added those - bullets so my post could be easily read!

[vsmith]

Heres Elizabeths plan I worked out using an R1 template

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http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Busby%20Study%20Model2.pdf

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Bit tighter than the sketch would lead one to believe. And that been my experience and the lessons learned from my trails and travails in small layout planning. At this small scale of layout planning it become very critical to design at actual full size, so you know how much area an R1 switch takes up and what size make up peices you likely need. Its the only way to make sure the area given will accomodate the desired track plan and still have room for buildings , scenery, etc.

[Anonymous]

I am convinced that the American Dog bone configuration is the best way to get the most track into a given space. I have a double dogbone in area my 3 and i have 70 m track ib 21 M2 space.

John you have surprised me all this business of restricted space, you live in the biggest state in either USA or Australia. What is it about 3,000,000 square kilometres. I was also surprised that you used imnperial measurements.

I would remind you that Australia is a metric country and real Australians should do their best to support this.

Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

Heres Elizabeths plan I worked out using an R1 template

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http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Busby%20Study%20Model2.pdf

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Bit tighter than the sketch would lead one to believe. And that been my experience and the lessons learned from my trails and travails in small layout planning. At this small scale of layout planning it become very critical to design at actual full size, so you know how much area an R1 switch takes up and what size make up peices you likely need. Its the only way to make sure the area given will accomodate the desired track plan and still have room for buildings , scenery, etc.

 

Hello Vic,

 

The layout plan  posted for the 2.3 by 2.3m space is actually planned in 1:1.  

As our techie/designer tells me each Millimeter equals exacty one Millimeter when drawn. Our experience has been that many of  the layout planning softwares are not accurate enough for our purposes. Some of those inaccuracies show in you drawing. In order to get the required accuracy we use CADrail.

Cadrail allows you to select one millimeter as the basic unit and everything fits perfectly that way. When things fit and align perfectly - including the make-up pieces -  one can easily use the CADrail drawings to construct any type of layout from small Z-scale to the largest "G" design.

 

Best regards

 

ER

 

[vsmith]

I drew my plans on Autocadd also at 1:1, I always include the track width so that the clearences ar shown. Theres no guess work planning wise and I can get an accurate track count and fiddle with finetuning it.

 I would be interested to see how your layout as planned would translate into a  program using Autocadd. I tried but my take was as best I could get and still stay within the 8' square area.

 Anyway John has to answer a few basic questions to continue. Vic

[John Busby]

Hi Vic

It will be walk around I figure if it isn't it will not get off the floor level

I am hoping I might be able to get extravagant and have a few R2 curves but not holding my breath on that.

Stock will be small 4wh the largest being the LGB toy train stock I don't know of any real short bogie stock in "G" so don't expect it will have anything with more than 4 wheels.

In the absence of those rather nice DHR Sharp Stewart 0-4-0's with 6 or so crew hanging off them I have no idea what to use for loco power but it had better be tiny and small at the largest any thoughts

Access could be problematic it would have to be pretty mountainous to get the twists and turns as it goes up to look right

things will probably be steep and sharp curves

regards John

[SandyR]

How about two loops, one above the other, but not connected?

SandyR

[John Busby]

Hi iandor

This layout is to be built in my Hobby room inside the house which in spite of the 1/4 acre block is a miners cottage that has been tacked on to  and tacked on to so the rooms are small.

R1 curves are not a problem I have 3 train sets worth to get rid of that will not make it to the real railway in the garden.

The railway is for when its too hot or flooding the town with rain so is indoors and really restricted for space

The "REAL" railway is being built in the garden where it can spread have a number of stations, with my idea of long trains (4-6-0 locomotive and ten bogie wagons + guards van) and still be able to maintain the minimum three times train length between stations rule for most of the line, not including no facility stopping places put there because it seemed a good idea at the time.

The US is an imperial measurement country so better input will be had by quoting feet and inches 

Given the Aussie view on Authorities you should not be that surprised at the use of real measurements instead of that funny foreign stuff

regards John

[John Busby]

Hi Sandy R

Thanks for the thought.

I would get bored with unconnected loops and no operational potential very quickly.

regards John

[MTCarpenter]

This would make for a fun exercise.  Everyone that wants to can put in a design for an 8 x 8.  We'd have to standardize the rail - pick a brand or custom bent.

Or even new threads where someone throws out a concept and a space and folks could put in their designs.  It would be a great resource for beginners.

Anyway, just thinking out loud.  Well, writing out loud I guess. 

[Anonymous]

...................................................

 I would be interested to see how your layout as planned would translate into a  program using Autocadd. I tried but my take was as best I could get and still stay within the 8' square area.

............................................................. 

 Hello Vic,

 

Our layout designer says:

There would be no difference between AutoCadd and CADrail; a tangent track of 300mm is precisely the same in AutoCadd, this also applies to a 600mm curve segment of 30º. We have 6 different makes of track for 45mm gauge track planning. Choice is up to the end user or depends on the application i.e. North American or European.

The turnouts are shown as the projected tangents, this shows at a glance how steep or  shallow a turnout really is.

The track material in question is LGB, turnouts are R1 types (600mm rad).

 

Best regards

ER 

PS the layout consists of four segments, each measures 1500mm by 800mm

 

[Anonymous]

I really can't see how you are going to do much with such a small space. I probably wouldn't do it if that was all the room i had.

Rgds Ian

[vsmith]

Kinda a surprising reply considering that Elizibeth and myself were both able to rather quickly supply John a suggested track plan for the given space. Large scale can most definelty be done in tight spaces like this, it just takes a more refined approach to track planning and an understanding of what to expect. I suggest reviewing the microlayouts website I referenced above, as the famous man once said, "there are no problems, only solutions"

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http://carendt.com/index.html

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Elizibeth, I should have said I would have liked to see that plan using an LGB templete similar to the one I use, as I'm still unclear as to how that plan would eventually lay out, anyway I'll take your word that its good for LGB track.

[John Busby]

Hi iandor

I figure its worth a try Vic and others came up with possible plans rather fast

Vic being the forum appointed expert on no space railways does tend to have ideas that fall out side the normal perspective of what is workable space.

I figure something that twists and turns all over the place should be able to gain some height and go over its self a couple of times should get a reasonable run small stations typical of mountain narrow gauge should be possible.

It will probably have to be a rabbit warren layout with R1 curves to get a run worth having the only possable killer being can I get the grade to get up and over where it is needed and often.

I have seen a couple of DHR pictures where things twist turn spiral and generaly tie them selves on knots to get the train where it is going.

Even saw a possable station which could be done with a passing loop with R1 curves and points no straight track and thats at the top of a spiral with a small settlement inside the loop and the station building outside the loop.

Just wish I had copys of the pictures because I cannot remember where I saw them

regards John

[vsmith]

John

I would seriously consider raising the base of your layout for ease of access. raising the base to at least 24inches will A: allow for greater ease of construction, B; easier accessing to any inner switches, C; better to look at visually, D; better access for maintanence or derailments. E: far far easier to couple or uncouple cars.Otherwise you'll be on your knees to do anything and everything.

My old indoor layout was about 32" tall, the new one will be 42" tall.

[Anonymous]

Yes John i haver done all that, twists and turns and going over itslef and now 2 years down the track i am still not sure that i would not have been better off going for something simpler.

Rgds Ian

[Anonymous]

here's some pix (I hope) of what I did with 5' x 8' on a diningroom table (nice height to work with, BTW).... It's just your basic oval with a double siding. If it looks a bit crowded it's because my old garden was 8' x 16' and I wanted to reuse a bunch of it.

 

 

 

 

 

[vsmith]

Yes John i haver done all that, twists and turns and going over itslef and now 2 years down the track i am still not sure that i would not have been better off going for something simpler.

Rgds Ian

[vsmith]

This would make for a fun exercise.  Everyone that wants to can put in a design for an 8 x 8.  We'd have to standardize the rail - pick a brand or custom bent.

Or even new threads where someone throws out a concept and a space and folks could put in their designs.  It would be a great resource for beginners.

Anyway, just thinking out loud.  Well, writing out loud I guess. 

[John Busby]

Yes John i haver done all that, twists and turns and going over itslef and now 2 years down the track i am still not sure that i would not have been better off going for something simpler.

Rgds Ian

In an outdoor space, even a space restricted space, I agree with you, less can be more.

But when you start to really shrink the layout, now maximizing track, adding more sidings and as much visual interest you can is where it gets really fun. The layout I did for John tried to allow for as much "operation" as possible. On a really small layout you can only go round and round for so long before its gets dull, adding the ability to actually move cars from siding to siding, assembling trains and operating it like a real RR is where it get smuch more interesting and can keep one occupied for quite a while. Thats the real fun of microlayouts.

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John, any ideas for your layout yet? I've been thinking of tweeking the one I did to see what kind of buildings I can add, Interested? Of course if your planning on modeling the Darjeeling mountain RR I look forward to seeing your layout plan. I think you could build a nice Darjeeling lokie on a Stainz chassis.

Hi Vic

Thanks for the generous offer of loco construction would you be  willing to do a vertical boilered loco or something simple but interesting with a Hartland mini car providing the chassis I don't think any one manufacturers anything that small.

I don't plan on modeling the DHR however that has influenced my thinking as to how to best use the space available with its twists and turns, I do sometimes wonder if the engineer was a railway modeler with the way it gets to some places as it loops over its self and spirals up the mountains.

As you rightly note some operational interest is a must I would get bored very quickly just running around in twisted loops

Scenery will start at floor level hence the boards on the floor to keep the carp off the carpet.

But the track will be on risers etc to get height to a comfortable level.

What is the shortest distance I can have to get the required height to cross over the line below

Any bright ideas for a principle freight traffic so I know if open trucks, flats or vans should be the higher number present on the line.

Looks like I have a use for those two Lehmann blue toy train coaches after all any one know if they did a blue 4wh toy box car I could use for a luggage van

regards John

[vsmith]

Nice try John..

 I did say you could build a nice Darjeeling loco.

 I reworked my basic layout with buildings and elevations, I'll post a link, let you decide whether its something you could use or not.

 http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Busby%20Study%20Model%20update.pdf

[John Busby]

Hi Vic

Read error 401

I was however serious in my thoughts on a something or other on a Hartland mini car chassis any thoughts easy build and visually interesting would be good, as much info on getting the chassis right so it works without destroying its self would also be good.

Did you get the message with the correct email address for me??

Like the layout track parts list please

By facades I take it you mean false front structures or is it literally only the front wall of the structure

The micro layout web site you posted I am still going back to and wondering how they got that in that space there are more than a few interesting ideas on that site

regards John

[John Busby]

Nice try John..

 I did say you could build a nice Darjeeling loco.

 I reworked my basic layout with buildings and elevations, I'll post a link, let you decide whether its something you could use or not.

 http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Busby%20Study%20Model%20update.pdf

Hi Vic

I took the liberty of posting the plan on the 16mm news group for comment just in case I missed something.

Concerns where raised about the clearances on the rising an falling grade in the top right of your plan.

And vertical clearance on the head shunt leading to the mine.

What are the full size dimensions for those two areas so I can check them by setting it up full size, and making sure that stock will clear the space with out raking the cliffs or breaking whistles off loco roofs

regards John

[vsmith]

Nice try John..

 I did say you could build a nice Darjeeling loco.

 I reworked my basic layout with buildings and elevations, I'll post a link, let you decide whether its something you could use or not.

 http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/vsmith/Busby%20Study%20Model%20update.pdf

Hi Vic

I took the liberty of posting the plan on the 16mm news group for comment just in case I missed something.

Concerns where raised about the clearances on the rising an falling grade in the top right of your plan.

And vertical clearance on the head shunt leading to the mine.

What are the full size dimensions for those two areas so I can check them by setting it up full size, and making sure that stock will clear the space with out raking the cliffs or breaking whistles off loco roofs

regards John

[John Busby]

Hi Vic

I think the plan needs to be 3" longer ?? wider?? so that two 10070 75mm straights can be put in to get the clearance problem at the top of the plan sorted.

Have you ever made a wooden level crossing on your indoor layout if so what did you use??.

Still waiting for Hartland mini car sized loco idea to turn up no light bulb over the head yet!! there must be some little steam outline  loco that would be just right for the job one day I will find it

regards John

[vsmith]

Hi Vic

I think the plan needs to be 3" longer ?? wider?? so that two 10070 75mm straights can be put in to get the clearance problem at the top of the plan sorted.

Have you ever made a wooden level crossing on your indoor layout if so what did you use??.

Still waiting for Hartland mini car sized loco idea to turn up no light bulb over the head yet!! there must be some little steam outline  loco that would be just right for the job one day I will find it

regards John