Thanks for the info Dave. I used to have DCS but got frustrated, but knowing these tips, I may give it another go.
Hi guys,
First, to answer Byron's original questions. I do not have experince with the exact set of equipment you are trying to use, but I do have experince with DCS outdoors on DC with Stainless track. I'm a fulltime layout builder in the Seattle area. I've built an O-gauge outdoor layout using Gargraves stainless track that runs DCS and I've re-wired another G-gauge outdoor layout that runs on DC and brass track for DCS. The G-gauge layout uses rail clamps. So hopefully I can give you some useful advise.
Before getting into wiring details I'd like to clear-up some apparent confusion about the MTH DCS system. DCS is NOT DCC and it dose NOT work like DCC. DCC has its own wiring requirements, but they are very different from DCS. DCC transmits its digital signals buy modulating the frequency of its AC current. In general this allows for good signal provided you have good electrical continuity in your wires and track. DCS, on the other hand, uses a 10MHz carrier frequency to transmit data packets over the same wires that provide track power. DCS is much more akin to DSL internet service from telephone companies which send a 914MHz signal over your phone wires. This makes DCS sensative to both electrical continuity and electrical impedance. In data wiring any point that has a change in impedance can cause a reflection that degrades the digital signal. To treat these problems resistors are installed at these points where there is a change in impedance. This is where the light bulbs come into play for DCS. So lets get on to some specifics.
There are some general rules for DCS wiring that apply to all applications, including G-gauge on DC power.
1. Keep your TIU(s) centrally located to keep wire runs as short as possible
2. Use 14 or 16 gauge stranded wire.
3. From each TIU output run an equal length pair of power and ground wires to a terminal block. The wire pair going to one terminal block dose not have to be the same length as a pair going to a different terminal block. TIP: Using heavy speaker wire makes it easy to keep the wire lengths equal.
4. Mount a resistor between the power and ground on each terminal block. TIP: #1445 and #1447 18 volt bulbs work very well for this purpose. Alternatly you can use 2 watt 180 Ohm ceramic resistors (2 in parallel) to get the same results.
5. Run equal length power and ground wires from the terminal blocks to each track block.
6. Solder the feeder wires to the track. TIP: I've had good success soldering to stainless rail by using paste flux usually used for sweating copper pipe.
7. Solder only one pair of wires for each track block.
8. Use insulating rail joints or clamps to electrically isolate both rails of each track block.
All of the above items apply to any DCS layout. For Byron I would also recommend keeping the length of each track block under 40 ft. because of the lower conductivity of the stainless rail. It may be neccessary to add jumper wires across eack rail joint within a block, but I have not had to resort to this on either of the outdoor layouts I have work on. Also, Byron states he has over 1500 ft. of track. There dose seem to be an upper limit of how much track and wire each channel of the TIU can provide with adequate signal strength. I would strongly suggest Byron use all eight channels on two TIUs to power his layout. Multiple TIU channels can be powered by the same transformer. The use of multiple TIU channels is simply to provided more signal stregth for the digital signal.
Here's a link to the website for the O-gauge outdoor layout I built.
Woodshire Railroad
There are some neat videos so you can see DCS in action.
Ian-
You really need a reality check.
If your stuff is "successful", mayhaps we need to start a thread quoting the many issues you continue to have.
If I had 1/10 the problems you have reported, I would have given up long ago.
The rules of the forum prevent me from telling you what I really think about this.
Think before sending.
Keyboard it out on-screen, read it, walk away for 30 minutes, come bnack and read it again before hitting "send".
I use DCS for my O scale MTH trains. I think your problem may be the stainless steel track. The signal has to travel back and forth from the TIU to the engine and back again and it has to be a really clean signal. I don't use SS track so I'm not sure if it carries the signal as well as brass track.
Something else to consider would be to use 2 conductor "speaker" wire like you would buy at Radio shack to hook up your stereo. It seems to conduct the signal much better than standard electrical wire.
Guys, this is your warning: please keep this thread on topic. If you are not familiar with this system or can't offer assistance, don't post.
Rene Schweitzer
Classic Toy Trains/Garden Railways/Model Railroader
I use Bridgewerk power supplies and agree they are clean.
On 1000 ft of brass track with soldered joints I have 6 feeders, all as short as possible to isolated closed loops.
1 feeder/loop is 250 ft long
1 light bulb on each loop.
2 TIU,s in super mode with feeders/track length split equally as possible between the 2.
Bud
Have you guys found that bridgewerks provides the cleanest power supply to carry the dcs signal? Also, approximately how often do you run a power feed? 20ft? 30ft? 40ft? 50ft?
Thanks
Very well said Bud, as I have explained to you my configuration is different than yours, and the suggestions you have made to me will be implemented, also I use stainless steel track, not Brass.
THANX
Byron
Rgds Ian
Just because some have worked the bugs out of other systems/ not DCS, came up with a fix and have a smooth operating layout does not mean that it will work as well on different systems or layouts.
Even though my MTH/DCS system works very well on my track configuration there are many possible variations on other layouts that may be required to get the bugs out.
iandor wrote: I am rarely out of my league ever; and i do have a succesful DCC system working and have done for over 3 years and it is all very simple, nothing fancy, no tricky wiring, no light bulbs. Possible what you have is in a fairly undeveloped stage and hasn't had all the bugs ironed out of it yet.
I am rarely out of my league ever; and i do have a succesful DCC system working and have done for over 3 years and it is all very simple, nothing fancy, no tricky wiring, no light bulbs. Possible what you have is in a fairly undeveloped stage and hasn't had all the bugs ironed out of it yet.
Sorry ole chap can not let you pull the wool over these nice new comers eyes.
Ok two simple things as I remember on your track that you could not run your trains for long. 1) small black ants (on your track which I named it Antville) 2) pick ups was dirty because of the ants
You should have known because it is your RR and 3 yrs in it! Come on and eazy up on these people!!!
William
All we are talking about is MTH's Digital Command System IE. DCS. Go here and read up OK
http://www.protosound2.com/
By the way it is LGB MTS and i have belonged to a forum that discusses this very subject and nothing of what you guys are talking about was ever mentioned, do you have much actual experience of with an in the field "G" scale DCC system? This forum is to do with garden railways after all.
Naturally i disagree with all of you, i have 200 metres of track and it is all connected with soldered rail joiners or hillman clamps and nothing else. I have no trouble with controlling my 8 locos with up to 8 on board functions and points (switches) and signals at any place in the track.
To even talk about block wiring indicates to me that actual working knowledge is in short supply (i have put this as nicely as i can) unless you have a quite advanced layout to do with automation or train detection, as i will have soon, there is absolutely no poin; even then i willonly be using one rail for control the other will be, as is.
I get about 24 .8 V in all parts of my layout and digital signals reach my locos at any point in the layout. The reason for this is that brass rails are an outstanding conductor of electricity and nothing you can supply in the way of wire will come anywhere near it. Not only for conuctivity but for lackof capacitive and inductive reactance (I am a retired electrical engineer)
My main reason for going to DCC was to get away from block wiring.
Thomas M.
Thank you for your reply, Seems as you say that this system DOES work best with less wire, shorter the better at times, as well as blocks and single hook ups to each section from the TIU's in super mode. The most important added feature though, is a light bulb, strategically located across the track somwhere in the loop to CLEAN UP THE SIGNAL, so I'm told. Bud's layout of I would guess wellover 1500 foot of track and multiple LGB switches, operates flawlessly. He also shared/showed a few other tricks to me as well, that I hope to implement into my operation. If you are using this system as I say he has much to offer.... Byron
Oh and btw, the LGB MTS system could really benefit from the "spider web" technique as well. I have noticed that even on my HO DCC layout, the DCC signal seems much more "sensitive" to voltage drop than a normal DC layout. Same with LGB MTS. So it is very important if you run electricity to go over kill on wiring. Thick guage Wire is much cheaper than most stuff anyway!
Warm regards,
EMPIRE II LINE wrote: Never mind him Eric, I was seeking intelligent information about this particular system anyway, Mr. Bud Steinhoff was vary accomodating, even spent the afternoon with he and his wife, enjoying his railroad, I think he has much to offer those who really would like to understand the DCS system, and how to make it work very successful in the Garden. Byron
Never mind him Eric, I was seeking intelligent information about this particular system anyway, Mr. Bud Steinhoff was vary accomodating, even spent the afternoon with he and his wife, enjoying his railroad, I think he has much to offer those who really would like to understand the DCS system, and how to make it work very successful in the Garden.
I read somewhere that MTH recommends using the "spider web" approach to wiring for the DCS or Lionel TMCC. Basically, you wire more than just two blocks--inbetween all your turnouts there should be power feeders, all relatively short length and tied to at least one large gauge feeder hub.
I read this I think in O gauge journal about two years ago. They stated that putting feeders at every corner of the layout and between turnouts made for superb conductivity. And I would recommend such a move for any digital system in the garden.
The DCS isn't a bad system but going "digital" doesn't necessarily mean "less wiring". It may mean more uniform wiring, or shorter wires, but not less wires!
Rest assure, if you go overboard on wiring, the worst thing that can happen is that you never have a problem!
Regards,
After pulling all my hair out I have very good signal throughout my 1200 foot of track/switches.
Brass track with soldered jumpers and all feeders, Bridgewerks 22volt power supply.
Divided and insulated my track into closed loops with 8 short as possible feeders.
Found out that more feeders is not necessarily better due to the added length for the signal to cover.
There are up to 200 ft of track on 1 separate loop with only 1 feeder.
Had to have a 2nd TIU to have enough signal strength for my complicated layout and length.
Set up the TIU's in super mode which connects both TIU's to operate on all tracks.
Add light bulbs located at each loop and experiment with location,which has done more for increased signal than anything.
I also can operate DCS at the same time as using the Aristo on-board system.
I had many suggestions and I guess there are many ways of approaching this but this worked for me.
Hope this helps.
EMPIRE II LINE
Byron Custer
Does anyone have any experience with the MTH- DCS systems use in G scale, using DC track power. I use Aristo Stainless steel track with rail clamps and Bridgewerks DC track power systems. MTH suggests using two power blocks through the TIU and multi hookups to the track from there, on the two variable sides of the TIU. A person once suggested using all of the same length wires to the track for each hookup. Mind you I'm trying to find the best way to go about this with out the constant work of rewiring continually, anyone had any success with this system??? I have well over 1500 foot of track in a double track main-line, with multiple switches, #6's and wide radius 10 ft. switches, I've jumper wired these also. But still no real response continually, only intermitantly. Any experienced user's of this system that can help me here ???
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