Stainless steel vs, Brass

[Anonymous]

I have fairly extensive experience with brass (both outdoors and indoors), and more limited experience with both stainless steel and aluminum rails.  I never had any major problems with brass, aside from keeping it clean, but my next outdoor layout will use stainless steel exclusively.  I simply like the look of it, and given my status as an "oldster," I like the fact that it requires a bit less attention in terms of cleaning.

I've also tried aluminum track (Hartland, with the built-in roadbed), but would not recommend it for outdoor use for a variety of reasons.  I use the Hartland track in my indoor LS display cases, and on smaller indoor layouts.

There's sure nothing wrong with brass--it has been used on garden railways for years--but my personal preference these days is definitely with stainless steel.

[on30francisco]

I was thinking of using stainless steel but opted for nickel-silver, which is made in codes 215, 250, as well as code 350. It looks very realistic, can easily be soldered, and conducts electricity well. Since I'm modeling indoors, I don't know how it will work in a garden.

[EMPIRE II LINE]

Just thought I'd give a couple of pennys worth, I've been using SS for just over a year now and am presently building my new line with all SS and SS rail clamps, the only way to go if you live where I do, Central Florida. Especially if you run track power, I use Bridgewerks power systems, along with Loco-Linc RC and MTH's DCS system, I'm still learning how to properly wire and get the best performance outta the DCS system, however I do like it pretty well. I formerly had a brass layout consisting of a mainline of more than 2000 foot, the constant CLEANING--- AHHHHHH, if it had't been for the LGB track cleaning engine, I'd a hated the layout, I model the GREAT NORTHERN RR  from Minneapolis through the Rockies to Seattle, hence the name of my line is THE EMPIRE II LINE, I run long freights and USA passenger trains, 19 of their extruded aluminum cars in the GN scheme alone. Had three levels of tracks through mountains and all. So back to the subject at hand, after using brass for more than 10 years, both here, as well as in Akron ,Ohio.....I say, Mind Ya, I SAY, personal opinion and experience here, if you run track power and use br-***, in a climate like this, you gotta be one....especially if you can afford the alternative. I love to run them trains and what a pleasure it is to not spend time cleaning all the time, as before. I can just go out and run even after the worst rain we've had, with only a minimal cleaning, if any. The Track cleaning engine is still used at times, tree sap and leaves, but as a general rule it's pretty much a yard relic. My new line is inexcess of 1000 foot right now and it runs well, as far as conductivity, well as I've said I am learning how to wire the system so that the MTH-DCS system will perform flawlessly, as it is, they suggest jumpers every 20 foot or so, a bit impractical for this size of a layout. I'm still learning and experimenting, will let you know what i come up with in the future if your interested.   Byron   

[RR Redneck]

They look pretty good.

[FJ and G]

Well, the discussion was brass v SS but since Greg expanded the discussion, I'd agree with him that n/s is more prototypical color. It has pretty much the same advantages I cited for brass and then some.

Here's my n/s rails in place:

[Anonymous]

He who knows not and knows that he knows not, is a child lead him.

He who knows not and knows not that he knows not, is a fool, shun him

He who knows but knows not that he knows, is a sleeper, wkae him.

Butr he who knows and knows that he knows, is a leader follow him.

IJB 25 Sept 2006 and someone else much wiser than me a long time ago.

[tangerine-jack]

Ah, ok, never mind then. I have never used it outdoors, forgive my ignorance.

Ignorance, i.e. the state of not knowing a fact, is quite forgivable.  Stupidity, i.e. the state of knowing you are ignorant of facts and failing to correct the problem, is not forgivable.  Ignorance is cured by knowledge; knowledge is gained by asking questions.  Never apologize for curing your own ignorance with knowledge gained from asking questions

[RR Redneck]

Ah, ok, never mind then. I have never used it outdoors, forgive my ignorance.

[Puckdropper]

Why would Nickel-Silver rust?  There's no iron in it AFAIK.  It may oxidize, but most metals do that anyway.  

[RR Redneck]

As prototypical as it is, don't NS tend to rust?

[Greg Elmassian]

If I was building my own turnouts, I would go NS, more prototypical rail color.

For me, I went track power and DCC. When I first was starting, all the people experienced with DCC in HO warned that DCC would never work outdoors, because it needs perfectly clean track.

I started with a loop of USAT and LGB brass. Sure did not take long before I bought an LGB track cleaning loco! Hated scrubbing the rails before every run.

Put in a loop of  H&R stainless in the front yard, right in the grass, got watered every day. Never cleaned track again. I wanted an operating/operations layout and this was perfect. What a difference.

The Aristo joiners and screws did not look like a good solution, and they work loose and the contact area for transmitting power is basically the threads in the rail to the shoulder of the screw to the joiner and back again. H&R uses a slip type joiner that conducts great, but the price was double what the Aristo was.

So, keep screws tight and slowly phase in SJ stainless rail clamps. Perfect again. Bending SS rail was a pain, so went sectional. More joints, but the SJ clamps make that a non-issue, and I can modify the track plan at will. Perfect again.

So, I am a happy camper. About 50% of my layout gets hit by sprinklers every day. No problem.

My DCC stuff runs great. I accept the shiny steel appearance and the somewhat more slippery (on grades) rail for the complete lack of track cleaning and excellent operation on DCC.

Everyone out here with track power is going or wants to go stainless. Not too many people doing hand made turnouts.

I sure don't understand the comments about SS being more trouble, have only encountered 2 people with problems with SS, and they seem to have some airborne contaminents that gunk up the rails.

One weird thing about SS, it seems to arc more from the electrical contact between power pickup wheels and the rails. Almost everyone has seen this "carbon dust" from this. It will wash off or blow or wipe off easily, and is not a problem for me.

Well, one more person's experience.

Regards, Greg

[RR Redneck]

Well I have always liked brass, again, I enjoy the hands on experience.

[Anonymous]

I am veryhappy with my brass track and oints etc. I just could not afford SS in this country.

Ian

[FJ and G]

While there are many advantages to SS, for me, at least (maybe I'm in the 0.0001%), I prefer brass in its ease for making turnouts, which require cutting, bending, filing and soldering. The brass is so much easier to work with. Obviously, SS could still be used but for soldering (such as rails to the brass base of the frog), a small torch would need to be used to make the solder adhere. I think as far as looks go, the SS could be improved with paint on the sides. The shininess of the top of the rails would not really suit my low-use industrial line I'm building and I understand that paint atop the rail eventually gets attached to the wheels.

One other reason I like brass, which I nearly forgot, is that it gets dirtier much easier than SS. The "patina" adds traction for my locomotives. An additional reason for brass is that SS has a better "memory" than brass and seeks to find its way back to the original shape.

Anyway, to each his/her own.

[RR Redneck]

Oh I couldn't agree more. I take what I want to hear and leave the rest, like curmugeon! lol

[tangerine-jack]

Good, Greg!  Let's hear more from the SS users, preferably those that converted from brass.  Don't be afraid to post your likes and dislikes, this forum is like an information buffet, you take what you want and leave the rest.

[Greg Elmassian]

If you ask the people who have switched from brass to SS, 99.999% of them would never go back.

The thing you have to do most to track is clean the oxidation from the rails. You never do this with SS.

Dirt and contaminants have to be removed no matter what track you use (this is about track power).

I would read more posts on this subject before making a decision.

I've had both, would never go back.

Regards, Greg

[RR Redneck]

That ain't too bad at all.

[Anonymous]

I hardly go to pubs anymore with regard to drink drive laws. However i did go a few times in Ireland and here i was at 2.30 AM a bit drunk and singing old Irish songs. We rung home and as it was about lunctime the next day there they reckoned we were nuts, being drunk at that time of day.

And on the way home in Dubai, here i was at midnight out in the desert, dancing with a belly dancer; not bad for a 70 year old.

rgds ian

[tangerine-jack]

Yes Ian, some day maybe we can down a few at the pub together and get a little crazy.  I think that would be great fun indeed!  We could split the cost of the damage, but you have to pay for your own bar tab.

[RR Redneck]

Well I am just gonna pull a Switzerland here and claim neutrality.

[Anonymous]

Thank you mate, thank you very much. Your idea that we are similar people is quite correct; as i would do the same to you, only do it first and harder.

rgds Ian

[tangerine-jack]

Jack mate;

I must disagree with you on the matter of conductivity, Stainless is no where near as good as brass, this is measured in mohs which is the oppossite to ohms and you can get figures on the rate of cuncuctivity or the reverse thereof reisitance for any given CSA (Cross Sectional Area) of both materials and really SS is not so good as you would thnk.

Also current doesn't have a lot to do with level the level of passage of electricity through a given material, it is in fact just that (the passage of electricity) but what causes the flow of electrons is the voltage applied to it. 

Please send me a can of beer in the mail to my address here on the Sunshine Coast.

rgds ian

 

Ian, I'll have to agree with your disagreement, with a caveat.  SS is not as good a conductor, that is true, but as far as garden railroading is concerned, it's not as much an issue as it's made out to be.  The difference is not very noticable, unless you take a measured reading, but as far as how the trains run, one material is as good as the other.  You are correct on voltage/amp definitions, but amperage will help the voltage get through dirty connections (not so much the material), that's my point.  I think there is just too much controversy over which is the "perfect" material to use, in my opinion there is no perfection, only a logical decision on what is "best" to fit the individual need. 

 In the case of garden railroad track, given a standard set of known values (cost, selection, availability etc), brass is the most logical metal to use based on a one for one comparison with stainless.  The wild card values are mainly involved with personal taste and vision (ie do you want shiny rails forever, or do you want a nice brown realistic rail?).  I was hesitant to use brass outdoors when I first came over from HO scale because brass is crap to use inside, this lead to an initial predjudice against a great material that has now been 5 years in the garden with next to no problems at all. Stainless has many fine attributes on it's own and certainly has given it's users fine service over the years, but the scale is tipped in favor of brass.

I mailed out your beer today, but in order to comply with Homeland Security laws and international shipping regulations, I had to empty the can first by rapidly consuming the contents, then crushed it flat and put it in a plain unmarked envelope addressed to "Homeowner or Resident Of".  My first attempt at getting it in the envolope was not succesful, so I tried the process over again from the beginning (consuming, crushing and stuffing) to no avail.  Finaly on the 6th attempt I got it to work.  If I could only remember which country I mailed it to..................

[Anonymous]

Jack mate;

I must disagree with you on the matter of conductivity, Stainless is no where near as good as brass, this is measured in mohs which is the oppossite to ohms and you can get figures on the rate of cuncuctivity or the reverse thereof reisitance for any given CSA (Cross Sectional Area) of both materials and really SS is not so good as you would thnk.

Also current doesn't have a lot to do with level the level of passage of electricity through a given material, it is in fact just that (the passage of electricity) but what causes the flow of electrons is the voltage applied to it. 

Please send me a can of beer in the mail to my address here on the Sunshine Coast.

rgds ian

[RR Redneck]

Well that is intresting to know.

[tangerine-jack]

If you weigh the pros and cons, I mean actually chart them out and see graphically what is going on, you will see that brass is the preferred choice for garden track.  Corrosion happens, but is minimal because of the specific metallurgy used.  Manufacturers are not stupid by any means, and they rely on the strength of the name to sell their product, so the brass used is highly resistant to corrosion.  Stainless needs cleaning as much as brass (maybe not as frequently) because of the film of bird poo, leaves, and other natural goop that builds up on the rails. Brass has a much larger choice of track profiles, radii and switches (point/ turnouts whatever).  Brass is also a lot cheaper.  Durability is at least equal; you will wear out brass in about 400 years, stainless maybe 475, and in either case you won’t be around to see it.  Conductivity is barely an issue, assuming track power, 10 plus amps is enough to push the voltage along just fine, and neither brass nor stainless will conduct through a loose, corroded connector anyway.

 

Logic and fact point to brass as the best material.  Now if you prefer the look of stainless, then have at it!  In the end it’s your choice alone what to use. 

 

 

Hope this helps.

[Tom The Brat]

It won't be a problem. We've used stainless screws in our brass track for years.

[jerryl]

I guess you could put an insulated rail joiner where the stainless & brass track join & connect seperate feeders to either side of the joiner.   Also ,for some reason , I always thought Stainless sleel was not affected by it as much as other metals. Jerry

[Anonymous]

Yes what happens with electrolysis is that the DC current in particular will pick up part of one material and try to deposit elsewhere, similar to many other processes such as galvanisingwelding etc. The whole matter is exacipated if you have moisture present particularly a slightly impure atmosphere such as smog, salty air etc.this makes it worse again,

'Ian