Need tips on adding a stream.

[Anonymous]

I have a variation of a dog bone layout and would like to add some water effects. My yard slopes at about a 4% grade towards the R2 radius at one end of the bone. There is about a 30' straight section ahead of the R2 loop where I would like to have a brook, that babbles, travel along side and perhaps cross under the track and back again, emptying into a pond in the center of the R2 loop. The track through this straight area gradually raises on rock bed and gravel to keep the road more level compensating for the grade. I live in Southwestern PA, if weather is a factor. I have laid a french drain consisting of 4" straight perforated drainage pipe covered with gravel the length of the straight area and exiting just below the R2 loop into my driveway. Not sure where the best place to purchase pumping and stream bed media. My thoughts are to place a submergable pump at the pond and run a hose up throught the existing drainage pipe (30') exiting at the top to form the mouth of the stream. I don't know what would be best to use for stream bed given the freeze/thaw factor. The stream would only need to be aprox. 6-8 inches wide and only a couple of inches deep. I think Lowes sells some pond equipment. Any suggestions on what, and what not to do would be appreciated. I'd like to start out economically as possible and upgrade as money and/or motivation happens. Please advise if there are any good threads (anywhere) that cover this topic. Or is this another one of those "just do it" trial and error type projects? I just don't want to waste money on mistakes that have already been made. Been there, done that, more times than I'd like to admit to!

Thanks,
Rich F.

[dwbeckett]

You can also try Home Depot, they have liner material you can get by the foot. can't help much more I live in Ca. now ( Born in Philladelphia)

[Anonymous]

I would like to do this also, howevr have decided it's too hard and shelved it.

This is not good and i suggest that you do not do the same!

Rgds Ian

[kimbrit]

I recently put a pond in with a pump pumping water up 12" height into a preformed stream/waterfall and this works well. I then thought of doing the same as you by letting the pond overflow into a river and collect in a sump some 30' foot away to be pumped back up to the top stream/waterfall. I started looking at pumps and the frist thing I found is that all of these big bulky garden pond pumps are in actual fact mostly empty space with a very small impellor inside, to get one to pump any volume of water 30' would be costly so I gave up on it and use the already dug stream as a pond overflow. Following on from this my neighbour has put a pond in with a waterfall about 4' above the pump and he has bought a household sump pump because of the cost of a 'garden pond' pump, works well but a big receiver sump/pond would be needed because of the flow rate from this type of pump.
Cheers,
Kim

[markperr]

Your best bet is to find a pond equipment supplier in your area. Ponds and streams are not difficult to install but they can be costly. There are a couple of different methods for laying a base for a stream but the best by far is to use pond liner material. It is thick, strong, and UV resistant and will last you years.
As for the pump, there is a formula, which escapes me, but should be known to a pond supplier as to what size pump you should use and will be based on whether you want the stream to be a little babbler or a racing rapid.

There are two types of pumps. The standard out of the water type pool pump which can be a bit noisy and distracting but is fairly cheap. Or you can buy a submersible type pump which is far quieter but more costly. Personally, I have a set up which is very similar to what you want but it sounds like my ponds are larger. What I've used is a pondmaster 3600 GPH submersible pump which uses a magnetic drive. It is extremely efficient and is whisper quiet and is about the size of a loaf of bread AND it comes with a 100% three year warranty.

Here's a couple of pictures (so that I don't have to say a couple thousand more words). A sort of before and after.





Again, it's not hard to do, but it is way too complicated to explain in a forum type setting. Just so you know, I've never put in a pond before and I learned mostly as I went. You might want to get a book from a book store or your local library about pond installation as well. It would be a wise fifteen dollar investment.

Good luck and let's see pics when you're done.

Mark

[FJ and G]

advice given to me to find a lower cost alternative is to find a roofing supplier and get the rubber (EPM??) that they use. I shall try this soon,unless someone wants to add a cautionary note.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I'm watching this one cause i'm moving my falls back about 12' into a hollow between two mountains in the very near future, and although I have my ideas of how to do it, I'm open to suggestion!

[ttrigg]

This is where I was just over two years ago.


The rubber membrane and underpayment were about $2 per square foot (for both). As for the pump size, you will want to calculate the volume of your water feature, then purchase a pump that will pump that volume each hour. You'll also want a filter that can handle the flow. I've had ponds with a submersible pump and found that that kind of filter clogged up weekly (Sunny San Diego, CA). I now have an Optima II filtration system (2,000 gallon capacity) and Optima pump (2k again) The plumbing runs back behind my storage sheds to the pump and filter. The pump, filter, leaf trap, and piping cost me about $1,200 USD. Since making the conversion to this type of pump and filter, my weekly maintenance of the pond has gone from about an hour per week to about 8 minutes every other week. Watch out for the "roofing membrane" as some of it is NOT UV resistant, it is meant to be covered with another material, like shingles. Let me know if you are interested in this type of pump/filter and I can pass along more information.

[Anonymous]

Good to hear from everyone. There are certainly a lot of logistics and research before I proceed. I didn't think about pump noise levels and water volume to supply a 30' run. I've heard some horror stories about hard to manage algae, mosquitoes, and high maintenance issues. When I see the pictures like the ones submitted or in Garden Railways, it becomes a real struggle because the water effects really add another dimension of interest for me. I think It might be wise to at least determine and run the appropriate size water lines so I won't have to tear down and rebuild if I do decide to go for it in the future. Also looks like to do it right will be cost prohibitive for my budget, and I'll need to go ahead in phases. Thanks for sharing!

Rich F.

[ttrigg]

Rich;

I went "top of the line" when I set up my pond, it can be done very effectively for a lot less money. A good quality pump, properly placed in the yard, can be not that loud. I placed mine in between two storage sheds and can only hear it when about 5 foot from it.

Water volume is very important in the planning phase. Your local pond retailer can help determine the volume. The same measurement that they will need to cut your liner off the roll.

As far as the horror stories go, I've not had any other than being flooded out. Our first pond, one of those "pre-formed" plastic shells was a green water trap. It was a constant night mare. Our current pond is very "user friendly", the water stays very clear. One of my "local fishermen" by the name of Piccolo Pete (you can read of his misadventure by doing a search on his name) has on occasion been found on the bottom of the pond. That is about four and half feet of water. The water is so clear that he is readily recognizable at the bottom of the pond. I've found him on the bottom before knowing he was missing from his favorite fishing place. Part of the secret of "clear water" is in the filter AND in having sufficient plantings in the water.

To address the issues of water volume I have done/am doing the following. Flooding: I've installed a "stand pipe drain" to a height just below the "flooding level" in the leaf separator. To compensate for water loss ("splash out" from the falls and evaporation) I'm in the process of adding an automatic water fill valve. Mosquitoes: they do not breed in moving water.

The sound of water cascading down the falls at night is so relaxing. To come home at the end of the workday, sit by the pond and feed the fish, is well worth the effort and costs. Not to mention that the water feature adds another dimension to the GRR.

[ttrigg]

I came home to 5 emails wanting more info on the filters I use. Here is their web site. The three main components I use, UV light, pump and filter are all in the left hand colom of their home page.

http://www.aquaultraviolet.com/

The water in the pond (not counting the routine replenishmnet) has been in the pond for over two years, it is still VERY clean, yes I have some algee growth on the rocks. The Koi are growing very quickly, in 4 months they have gone from under 2 inches to just over 6 inches. I like it, the fish like it, and most importantly, the wife likes it.

[Anonymous]

Do you intend to et them (Koi) at some time in the future?

Ian

[ttrigg]

Eat? NO NO NONONONONO!!!!!!!!

Sell, YESYESYESYES,,,,,,,,,

buy them at $2.50 each and year later sell for $100~$150.

[Train 284]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ttrigg

Eat? NO NO NONONONONO!!!!!!!!

Sell, YESYESYESYES,,,,,,,,,

buy them at $2.50 each and year later sell for $100~$150.

Now thats my kind of buisness! Where do you by these guys at?

[ttrigg]

Matt;

Remember; this is sunny San Diego - where fools and their money are soon parted!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info Tom. Glad to hear adding water doesn't have to be a maintenance nightmare! I hope I can at least get started with my project this summer. Time goes so fast. Think it was Joe Walsh in his James Gang days who said "Winter time is a razor blade that the devil made, it's the price we pay for Summer time". He grew up not far from Western PA!

Rich F.

[ttrigg]

Hooray for automatic fill valves!

Two weeks ago I installed an auto fill valve in the pond and it is working great! Why didn't I think of it two years ago? The water level now varies about 1/8 of an inch (or less). No more dragging the garden hose across the patio to "top off" the pond. If you have a water feature anywhere in your yard, and you don't already have one, I highly suggest you add a fill valve. In my case the only problem came in when I had to go under the tracks with the water pipe. With a total water volume of 1700~1800 gallons, the 2 or 3 gallons added every day by the valve have had no effect on the chlorine levels of the pond. I've tested it every day for the last two weeks and all is good.

[pimanjc]

I just finished rebuilding a 20ft. stream [ArKansas River] that winds down a 5% grade. Width varies from 5in. at the headwaters to 18in. at the lower end confluence with another stream. This river, although dry or hose fed, at present, serves as the natural watershed drain for that part of the layout. Construction methods will allow future water recirculation if Right Of Way is obtained for a holding pond.
Hopefully, pictures and narrative will be ready sometime next week. Materials used were
1. 4mil plastic [clear],
2. River Rock [medium size]
3. Pea gravel
4. 1/2 gal. Welbond Contact Cement [Original].
Total Cost: Approximately $30.
JimC.

[kimbrit]

As mentioned earlier I will repeat but with emphasis! The way to clear water is with a UV lamp in the filter system, works well and the water stays clear, doesn't have to be on all of the time. Ours runs a couple of hours in the evening and all day at weekends if it's sunny,. and when the trains run!
Kim

[MTCarpenter]

What do you all think of using concrete for your river beds? Just curious.

[FJ and G]

I'm using concrete for river bed but find it porous and leaky. Not sure where to get some type of sealer or what brand is best. OTOH, I find concrete to look more realistic than rubber and you can walk on it and big egrets can step on it without ripping it.

[calenelson]

around here we use a prod called "thera-seal"  Used it to helps stop leaky basement, I assume it would work for your purposes.....humnnnnn, may consider this for my stream-thanks for the ideas

 

cale

[Anonymous]

Not a good idea up north as frost heaves will crack and cause leaks, not sure down in your neck of the woods....