??How Steep??

[Anonymous]

my yard well, there is a bank that i am going too include in my RR (g-scale) but i was wondering how much of an incling a train can take?? i dont want too put all this work into something that dosent work at all.
is there something i can do to a loco to pull a hil better??
do some trains have more power than others? if so what is the biggest honkin out there!.!.!.....
[:D]
haha

how powerfull are large scale trains???

thanks
Super Chicken

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Most 1:1 railroads tried to hold to a 1% grade. From what I gather you could possibly go to a 2.5 or 3% grade with G if you are modeling a mainline railroad; steeper if you intend a logging or mining railroad that used geared locos like Shays.

Don't forget, it isn't all what a loco can pull up the hill, it's also what it can control on the downhill side also! 2MPH uphill and 95MPH downhill??? RUNAWAY TRAIN!!!

[Tom The Brat]

Just to give you an idea, 1% is a 1 inch rise in 8 ft 4 inches!

[Curmudgeon]

Two.

Most mainlin mountain grades try to limit to two to 2.2%.

Got several locally that do just that.

A couple (Saluda, for one) was MUCH steeper.

NG 4%.

I run 4 on my NG, can haul more than the prototype.

TOC

[Anonymous]

is a 5% grade too steep for a g guage steamer??????
im working in a limited space and some what on a bank. (but it is set up awsome)
i dont want a runaway train on my hands.

[Curmudgeon]

How many cars?

The more the grade, the less the cars.

That said, hard, slippery rail will do less on the tractive end than soft, less slippery rail.

To give you an idea:

I have an undulating 150 feet of 4%.

About 2/3 of it is 215, the rest is 250, all aluminum.

My first-shipment Bachmann Shay has no plating left on the drivers.
Every operating session I pull 28-34 loads unassisted up all of it, to the top, with no wheelslip (dry weather).

That's 3% to 5% undulating, average 4%.

You have a high-drivered Pacific, guess again.

How would you have a runaway?
Most, even with double-lead worms, won't run away.
I have pulled up the mine line at 10% with even road rod locos, now limited to an old Bachmann side-tank Porter.
No issues.

[pimanjc]

In the first picture the Pacific [pulling 6-AristoSierra cars- all I have.] is at the top of a 5% - 24ft long grade. then the track levels before it enters the 4.5% curving grade which eventually goes into the trees at the highpoint of the layout.



Second picture is from the other end of the layout.



Third picture is the LGB Mikado pulling 16 cars [have pulled 24] around the 4.5% curve heading into the forest.



Aristo's FA/FB lashup has pulled 26 cars on this layout. Any more cars start looking disporportional. Another major problem rears its ugly head in the form of "stringlining" on the tight graded curves on each end if there are more than 24-25 cars.

A final comment... The more level the better!!!!
JimC.

[Curmudgeon]

My old Moguls will haul that up my 4%, too.
Hard to tell, is that three or four on the Pacific?

[Anonymous]

Firstly i would go to metric to calculate gradients, simply divide the height in centimeters by the length in metres and there it is. eg 4 cm / 1 M = 2.5 %; what could be simpler. I would also be wary of the difference between % and degrees they are different.

Before you think of % gradient, also consider the curve involved if any, as this will have a negative effect as well. I have 4 % gradients and wish i didn't have them but i had no choice due to lack of space. LGB will handle these grades easily but the payload is drastically diminished. For instance i have a brand new LGB Sachsen, a fairly powerful articulated loco, designed for just this sort of work and it will only pull about 5 rolling stock up the hills.

I also have several R3 curves with a 4 % gradient and i can tell you this sorts out the men from the boys as far as loco traction is concerned,. I have one only "Ess" bend R2 and a 4 % and this is one too many.

If you go to LGB MTS you will not have any trouble with going down hill it will handle that for you.

If you have something specific in mind, email me as i have a lot of experience in this area. (Iwish I didn't though).

Rgds Ian

[Anonymous]

Oh i forgot 2 % is nice but 3 % is ok but 2% is better. This is a prcatical thing to do with "G" scale and not to do with any theoretical thing to do with the real world.

Rgds ian

[Curmudgeon]

Jim- I had one isue with "stringlining" when my "helpers" super-elevated a curve on a grade.
I always have my curves either dead level or outside banked.
Never another issue.

Ian.
Why would I want to encourage a dead king of France and make another conversion when the tape measure is handy?

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
Firstly i would go to metric to calculate gradients, simply divide the height in centimeters by the length in metres and there it is. eg 4 cm / 1 M = 2.5 %; what could be simpler. I would also be wary of the difference between % and degrees they are different.

Mathematically, it doesn't matter what units you use, just use the same units. Btw, 4cm/100 cm = 4%, not 2.5%. Let's say you don't have a measuring tool around, but you've got a dollar bill. You measure the run as 10 $ bills, and the rise as 1 $ bill. That's 1/10, or a rather steep 10%.

When it comes to grades, remember this: Keep the grade low, and avoid curves. (Ian said basically the same thing... I just summed it up.)

[Anonymous]

I expected as much from you, you seem to have no idea about much Curmudgeon.

It is very simple to do metric calculations as the multiplier is always ten; I have ten fingers and ten toes and that is what the simplest and most natural multiplier is.. When you get into inches against feet against fractions of an inch; their is no logic to the whole thing then the simplicty of the calculation is lost. This is ametric country and is much better for it . For the first 30 years of my life it was not and i can tell you which is the easiest.


Ian

[Kiwi Down Under]

Ian,
Bad example to use body parts for calculations. Many in this hobby cant remember the last time they saw their toes !.

Tony

[Tom The Brat]

Works the same in meters, inches, furlongs and barleycorns. Measure it any way you like, a ratio is the same.

[Puckdropper]

Just continually read from the same side of the tape measure and we'll all be fine.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Puckdropper

Just continually read from the same side of the tape measure and we'll all be fine.

[:p][:p][:p]

FWIW, I’m just using a 4’ long 1X2 with a one inch block tacked to one end. A $1.50 torpedo level taped in the middle completes this high tech tool. With the bubble level while perched on the roadbed, I know I’ve got a 2% slope. [:D]

[skeenapac]

Hey Bob,
you have the answer. I use a 4 foot long level
that I have marked a "maximum" bubble line on.
I set it for 1 inch in 4 feet, which is just over a 2% grade.
And that is my main-line maximum.

[Curmudgeon]

A little tip....
When we started the CCRy, to get consistent gradients, we laid the track on a board, set the grade, blocked an old flatcar on it, laid a chunk of Masonite on it, set a torpedo level on, shimmed one end to get the level bubble zeroed, tied the level to the Masonite, and put the flatcar in service.
Stop every foot or so and check "bubble".

Makes it real easy in spots you can't see easily from the side.
And, lift off the Masonite and return the flatcar to regular service.

Ian- Wake up.

[FJ and G]

Super Chicken,

Can you share some photos with us? You can email them to me and I'll post them for you.

I'd say 8% would be max; for mainline running, modern, about 5.5%. But that's way max!

[Curmudgeon]

Eight Percent!?!?!?!?!

Holy smokes.

I had one of those, a logging branch, now abandoned.
Before the Shays came out.

Rod locos in wet weather, stopped, would slide down the grade.

EIGHT PERCENT?

You must be using Ian's calculator......

[FJ and G]

curmudgeon,

I said "max".

Check out the stats for Tennessee pass and for a line in NC, which I forgot the name of.

Also, I mentioned 8% for other than modern. For example Rollins pass and logging roads which were a lot steeper. Not many cars but would do.

I visited a guys layout which was featured as the main feature on GRR several months ago who had an 8% stretch.

[Curmudgeon]

Oh, yeah, I mentioned that earlier (Saluda).
Out of service, as in abandoned, because of the grades, runaways, and the required runaway track at the bottom!

Mainline ruling in the US tries to be 2 to 2.2%, narrow gauge ruling 4%.

You run 8% on your garden line, best be rack.

When I've been at this more than a couple of weeks with a garden railroad, I'll let you know how it works.

If you want to actually pull anything try to stay 4 or lower.
If you want to pull a LOT 2 or lower.

Remember, tractive effort on our trains is nothing like the real thing, but when I've been into model railroading for more than a couple of weeks I'll let you know......

[Puckdropper]

Curmudgeon,

Couldn't you get some scale sand? That's what the big guys use. ;-)

[Curmudgeon]

Maybe Ian could figure out the metric equivalent so we'd get the right metric grain size.....

I don't know.

I saw that and about had a stroke.

Eight.


Like I said, once I've been running outdoors for more than the couple of weeks I've been at it I can give a better indication of what works, right?