Points (switch) problem.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

As i have explained, i have been a government trained technician and this is how the government of this country classified the matter back in the fifties and i do still agree with them.

If the LGB switch is double throw i would like to know where its double throw is? After all, all switched go up and down or from side to side and this is only one throw.

This not only applies to switches but to the operating contacts of relays and to have two throws you must throw in 2 directions, right or not? And i can tell you a telephone exchange prior to going solid state was absolutley full of these devices. Make before break is another configuration which they use a lot in telephone applications and this is usually to do with self actuated lock up circuits.

Much of the world agrees with you HJ but I do not.

Rgds Ian

Ian,

Nothing personal

Much of the world doesn't care if you agree or not. A standard was established and everyone - but you - who works in the electrical / electronics field has a clear understanding what DPDT stands for. Those who don't, can use "GOOGLE" to look it up.

Personally I don't believe that they will revise those conventions any time soon, since I suspect they don't worry about one guy in Queensland not understanding the conventions, designations etc. etc. Just as long as those who are in daily contact and need to understand the conventions, designations etc. etc. don't get confused. [;)][:D][;)][:D]

Since I see plenty of circuits using the conventions without problems, I believe they are on the right track.

Nothing personal

On a personal note, I had the pleasure and chore to work with many different government technicians. I found that they are just like everyone else; there are excellent people and there are people who try to talk a good job. The results are quite variable!!!! [;)][:)][;)]


PS Using the books and booklets published by several of the manufacturers - L-Gummi-B being one - one simply buys the components; they are all properly marked with a part number, the wire (ditto for number) and connects the stuff, carefully following the coloured lines in the book. No need to understand schematics, functions or any of "that stuff", just follow the lines. It is almost like paint by numbers, absolutely fool-proof results for everyone - except the colourblind. [;)][:)][8D][8D]

[Anonymous]

As i have explained, i have been a government trained technician and this is how the government of this country classified the matter back in the fifties and i do still agree with them.

If the LGB switch is double throw i would like to know where its double throw is? After all, all switched go up and down or from side to side and this is only one throw.

This not only applies to switches but to the operating contacts of relays and to have two throws you must throw in 2 directions, right or not? And i can tell you a telephone exchange prior to going solid state was absolutley full of these devices. Make before break is another configuration which they use a lot in telephone applications and this is usually to do with self actuated lock up circuits.

Much of the world agrees with you HJ but I do not.


Rgds Ian

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor


Incidentally i disagree with LGB's terminology to do with the description of the 12070 sup switch and i have seen other organisations that describe these switches the same way that LGB do. They describe it as as double throw doublw pole switch. The double pole quite correct but it is only a single throw switch. From my training double throw switches must have a centre position and the switch goes either side of the centre hance double throw.

INCORRECT!

A double pole, double throw switch (DPDT) does NOT have a center-off position. It has two positions!

A DPDT center off position switch OTOH has three positions i.e. the standard DPDT plus the additional center-off position. BTW these also come in spring loaded center-off versions.

Very handy critters for actuating LGB turnout motors (one pole) and by using the second pole to actuate a flip-flop one can indicate which way the turnout was thrown last (LEDs).

PS For those who are interested in such esoterica:

A regular DPDT switch - can also be a relay - is ON - ON
A center off DPDT switch - haven't heard of an equivalent relay - is ON - OFF - ON.

BTW I use SPDT spring loaded center - off switches on the panel used in staging. Pretty fool-proof way in conjunction with a turnout decoder which allows for "local over ride". According to the KISS method. [;)][:)][;)]

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen;

I have actually now fixed the problem 100 % I have removed the second point motor from S13 and connected the remaining motor to an LGB 12070 supplementary switch whis is designed to be incorporated in an LGB 12010 switch drive and i have selected nearby S15A to operate it. When S15 A is in straight through mode, the S13 switch can only be operated by the 17100 track contact and when in the divert position it can only be actuated by the MTS command. I have actually connected these two circuits to the supplementary switch as well.

So when S15 is on straight through the loco will go around the reversing loop it will ignore the first 12070 as they are directional and operate the second 12070 which will switch the S13 over so that the trailing side of its switch is in the correct position.

These track contacts are very interesting as they are directional and are operated by a 17010 magnet attached to the bottom of your loco. in a simialr but opposite manner to how are sound magnet works.

When S15 is in the bypass mode you can switch the S13 by MTS command so that the loco will go straight ahead and then through S15 and into the area 3 loop. you then put S15 into the through mode; again you can go around the circuit and any new locos coming into the reversing loop will be turned around as they should be and go back straight out into area 2 from whence they came.
Incidentally i disagree with LGB's terminology to do with the description of the 12070 sup switch and i have seen other organisations that describe these switches the same way that LGB do. They describe it as as double throw doublw pole switch. The double pole quite correct but it is only a single throw switch. From my training double throw switches must have a centre position and the switch goes either side of the centre hance double throw.

If any of you guysd can post photographs please email me and i wil send a few photographs that will explain the whole thing a lot better than i have its pretty simple really but i knwow i have made it sound complicated.


Rgds ian.

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen;

I have fixed th problem to an extent, by doing all the things i mentioned previously and some of the things that contributed to the problem:

1) Fines in the bearing under the points movable part.
2) Fines in the MTS actuating point motor.
3) 1 Point motors throw out of adjustment and poorly lubricated.
4) Poorly lubticated points.

I actually removed both point motors from the points and got the points working so freely that they would actuate with a side to side lean of less than 45 Deg either way.

But the real problem i think is the residual magnetic inertia within the point motors and this is why i have said it is only fixed to an extent. The effort needed to move a point motor compared to the effort used to move the points themselves is very high and i am convinced that this type of application is not meant to be.

The points i am having the trouble with is S13 and S 15 A and B is nearby and as i never want to use MTS on S13 unless S 15 is in the bypass mode i am going to fit a supplementary switch to S15 which is STDP (single throw double pole). This will connect the MTS circuit to the single point motor when S15 is on bypass and the rail switch contacts when it is straight through.


Rgds Ian

[RhB_HJ]

Hi Ian,

Nothing personal

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Here is another of my problems that willbe very hard to answer and as usuall is unique to only me.

I have a set of 16150 LGB points that i operate both with MTS and track contacts, to the extent i have two EPL drive units on it. It wil go from divert to straight and the other way ok of MTS. But it will only go from divert to straight by track contacts and not the other way.

I take the MTS drive unit off and it works ok in both directions.

Any ideas?


Rgds ian

AND

Posted: Today, 02:08:49
HJ i have been a government trained Telecommunictions technician and my logic for finding the solution to problems is 1 st class. I have never suggested that it is an electrical problem I have always thought it was mechanical and i still do. I cannot get rid of the MTS drive, as if i wi***o go from the reversing loop to the circular tack in area 3 i must use this set of points.

OK, here's what I learned in thirty years of high precision machine tool service (mechanical, electrical, electronics, hydraulics and pneumatics).

1. You analyze the problem.

2. You decide on a course of action.

3. You check step by step with no short cuts.

4. You find the cause of the problem and correct it.

OK, so that's the first part. Then I also learned by being in the hobby since 1952 that KISS is beautiful and I acted accordingly when building layouts. The same applies to my model railroad business.

Any fool can build it really complicated, but not every fool can troubleshoot his own complications.

And I learned in the past year that since you have such an unique layout with such unique problems, that applying my common sense troubleshooting techniques will not be unique enough. As far as I'm concerned, you need to apply your very own, unique solutions!

Nothing personal

PS I will still reply to your "revisions" like this one:

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

I can only run 1:22.5, as this is what LGB invented back in the 60's and due to various circumstances that i have with my layout i can only run LGB.
But i regard myself as a fairly smart person and i have read much on this subject of scale and i just cannot see to much sense in the whole thing.

I suggest you read a few more things; a good start is the history of Märklin and the NEM-MOROP standards. Using Google will give you plenty to read on the subject. You will quickly find that LGB didn't invent 1:22.5 scale.

[Anonymous]

HJ i have been a government trained Telecommunictions technician and my logic for finding the solution to problems is 1 st class. I have never suggested that it is an electrical problem I have always thought it was mechanical and i still do. I cannot get rid of the MTS drive, as if i wi***o go from the reversing loop to the circular tack in area 3 i must use this set of points.

What I am going to do now is to get hold of my Hillman balldriver and undo 6 hillman clamps and remove the points (switch) assembly and take it into my workshop.I am then going to remove both drives and make sure they are working properly and in an unbiased manner. At the same time i will completely service the switch and make sure its moving parts are clean and properly lubricated.

Then I am going to beg, borrow or even buy a tension gauge ( I have also been trained to use one of these as well) and i am going to check the actuating force needed to drive the points from one side to other without the switches, then add them one at a time and make sure the movement of the points remain unbiased.

Then I am going to go to the site where the points should be, I will completely level the site and tamp it down and it will be level to within 1 %. I have down this previously but it does move from time to time due to monsoonal rains at this time off year.

If this does't work i will disconnect the MTS drive on an easy to do basis and live with it.


Rgds Ian

[Greg Elmassian]

Ian, I may be late in the game here, but your original question reminds me of a post I think I saw on the yahoo gscalegoup (run by LGB people).

I seem to remember some funny programming exception where the switch worked in one direction and not the other.

You might want to post over there.

Greg

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

What was that famous quote by Scooty on one of the Star Trek movies......
The more complicated you make the plumbing the easier it is to stuff up the drain?

This is exactly why both my indoor and outdoor layouts were built to the KISS principle, and I dont mean its populated by make-up wearing fire breathing laser shooting explosion laden rock stars in 10 inch platform heals (thought that would be VERY interesting !!!)[:0][;)][:D]

The more complexity you add the faster it gums up the works. I'm already finding that LGBs famous outdoor reputation is a little tarnished by the fact that my 12000 series switches have to have the weakest spring mechinism in the universe! I have to manually move the points after I flip the switch lever on all of them even the indoor switches. Now I'm going to look into replacing ALL of them with the bulletproof ground throw type by Tenmile[xx(]

PS LGB still waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Aristo or USA switches, even with the weenie springs[:D]

[RhB_HJ]

Ian,

Get rid of one EPL drive. Then test-actuate the remaining drive with the MTS turnout decoder. If it works OK on a regular basis, do the same using the track contacts for actuation. If that works figure out how you can either use all MTS components or use the CVPUSA decoder that allows "local actuation".

If neither the MTS nor the track contacts work reliably, switch out the EPL drive for the one you removed. If that doesn't work you have a mechanical problem!

Troubleshooting is a step by step process and there are no "quick solutions"!!!!

[Anonymous]

I have now had a chance to put a spirit level on the set of points and it does in fact have a camber on it but it is in favour of the switching direction that has the trouble, so its not that!.

From this; what Mark had to say is looking more like beimg the problem. ie it is an inherent thing within the switch.

What about if i had to pull one of the switch drives out some ttime in the past and i had to pull it apart and didn't put it together correctly and this has caused it to have a bias in one direction and this has affected the other switch drive as well. I have reveresed the drives ie from track contact to MTS but i still have the problem, but i still have the suspect drive and maybe it ios causing a bial through the entire assembly?.

Any thoughts?


rgds ian

[Anonymous]

Yes well Curmudgeon i only tuned into this again to hear what pointless thing you had to say, but to my surprise it sounded quite reasonable.

Poor old Scotty died recently, sorry about that!

I am still mystified about this and will tell a bit more, when i use MTS the click is much louder going from divert to straight than it is from straight to divert. Which supports what i think about camber but it also gives support to what Mark said about it being an inherent thing within the switch; either in the design of the switch or for this particular switch, this is a very real possibility to me.

It is on a 4 % gradient trailing end down and this may be a contributing factor, what do you think?

I have been in hospital and don't want to put my head down for a while but as soon as i feel ok i will put a spirit level on it. I had a look at it from a short distance yetserday and I think it still has a lean favouring the straight side.

Another thing when i first got it going; I had no MTS drive on it and first pass for the day would not work on the divert side but after that 100 % correct. I fixed this by lubrication the switch and doing a bit on the camber situation.

I am interested in what you had to say HJ and I will investigate; thanks.

Rgds Ian

[Curmudgeon]

What was that famous quote by Scooty on one of the Star Trek movies......
The more complicated you make the plumbing the easier it is to stuff up the drain?

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson

HJ
Perhaps you need a trip down under for your next vacation, that way you can take care of several hereon by 1) being nice, and 2) fixing Ian's problem in a reliable and easy to troubleshoot manner! Now, it TOC will just warm up his boat we can arrange for you to get there at minimal expense!

Ian, Don't ask me, I'm electronically challanged! I have to consult my EE son to find out which side's up to plug in the coffee machine!

Bob, [;)][:)][;)]

Seriously, if one knows that the one EPL drive by itself works properly, one then only needs to use a AD4MC decoder from CVPUSA http://www.cvpusa.com/easydcc_decoders_ad4_med_curr.php which has the "local" override button and the problem is solved.

Unless of course, if one has a mechanical problem that is created by connecting two EPL machines to one turnout. [}:)][;)][:)]

Then it can be solved like this: one removes the "offending" EPL machine, buys one of the MTS Feedback Interface modules and triggers the EPL drive through the "track contact/feedback module/turnout decoder" chain.
Yes, this will require extra programming, but since MTS is such a "user friendly" system that should be no problem.

Not as simple and elegant as the CVPUSA method, but it will work and it's all MTS. http://www.lgb.de/english/faq/faq_zeigen.asp?lang=E&faqid=1012

Of course you need to make sure that the cabling to the EPL machine is plumb and level.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

HJ
Perhaps you need a trip down under for your next vacation, that way you can take care of several hereon by 1) being nice, and 2) fixing Ian's problem in a reliable and easy to troubleshoot manner! Now, it TOC will just warm up his boat we can arrange for you to get there at minimal expense!

Ian, Don't ask me, I'm electronically challanged! I have to consult my EE son to find out which side's up to plug in the coffee machine!

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor Don't forget this is a very advanced and technical layout; and it has to be that way due to lack of room. In area 1 i have 20 metres of track winding through jungle with 15 R1 curves in it and you have no hope with anything but LGB if you must do that.

Not to put too fine a point on things [}:)][}:)] I have heard of technically advanced layouts that used flextrack in order to

a) get rudimentary transition curves despite very tight radii

b) get the optimum track alignment

When customers/friends/aquaintances ask me how they should solve a problem: "With as few very reliable parts (which you can troubleshoot yourself) as possible!"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RhB_HJ

Rule 1:

Don't ask about an electrical problem, if you have a mechanical problem.


Rule 2:

Learn to distinguish between the two!

and Rule 3
Be Nice remember.

[Curmudgeon]

It is always considered "nice" and also to be in "good form" to quote someone back to themselves.....

[Anonymous]

and Rule 3
Be Nice remember.

[RhB_HJ]

Rule 1:

Don't ask about an electrical problem, if you have a mechanical problem.


Rule 2:

Learn to distinguish between the two!

[Anonymous]

This type of operation can only be done with LGB and i do not have any trouble with MTS whatsover and i havent had for over 2 years. Your idea Mark sounded pretty sensible to me, i was interested for a while and may still hold some water.

It is the track actuated points that are not working properly and I have come up with the idea that it might be to do with camber again. If the divert side is lower than the straight through side, the motor may have trouble pushing both the points and the other drive up hill; one ok but not both.

I have had to use two drive units on one set of points, because if you connect the 20 V AC from the transformer across an MTS switch decoder port, it causes that port to lose its programming, and i do want the points to work both off the track and with MTS, as not only does this set of points form the nexus of an MTS reversing loop; it also provides part of the connection between area 2 and area 3.

Regards ian

PS I have lifted the divert side up some but i have not been able to check it with a spirit level. Don't forget this is a very advanced and technical layout; and it has to be that way due to lack of room. In area 1 i have 20 metres of track winding through jungle with 15 R1 curves in it and you have no hope with anything but LGB if you must do that.

[Chompers]

Be Nice :0

[Curmudgeon]

Get rid of it and buy LGB!
Never have trouble with LGB!
All you people using "inferior" brands better wake up!


Oh, wait a minute........

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson

When in doubt go read directions! Fine print on page X-32 listed under thingamajig will probably say that this will happen unless you wipe it's nose with the correct brand of tissue!

Bob,

I'm a bit puzzled when I read that one uses two EPL motors on one turnout. I would think that one would be quite sufficient. Add a turnout motor decoder which has override inputs (these have been on the market for a while) and you're set.
Why am I puzzled? Because I quite regularly use one turnout motor to power two turnouts that have to work in tandem in the smaller scales.

Of course now that the LGB-Club forum is up and running, it is also possible to enroll as a Club member and ask all the convoluted/consternating MTS questions. If there will be easy solutions offered, I don't know. [;)][:)][;)][:D]

[Capt Bob Johnson]

When in doubt go read directions! Fine print on page X-32 listed under thingamajig will probably say that this will happen unless you wipe it's nose with the correct brand of tissue!

[markperr]

I don't know much about the MTS system but is it possible that it has an electrical default position that holds the points in one direction unless directed to do otherwise? Seems to me that when it's off, all things work normally. Seems logical that there must be some sort of electrical or mechanical conflict. Can you reverse the leads on the MTS input to the motor to see if the symptoms act in reverse?

Just a thought.

Mark

[kimbrit]

Hi Ian,
I'm starting to think that 'MTS' stands for Mighty Troublesome System these days. I'm sticking with the TE and 1 train running.
Kim

[ttrigg]

Don't make any sense to me, unless you are causing a short on one side when both are hooked up.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Here is another of my problems that willbe very hard to answer and as usuall is unique to only me.

I have a set of 16150 LGB points that i operate both with MTS and track contacts, to the extent i have two EPL drive units on it. It wil go from divert to straight and the other way ok of MTS. But it will only go from divert to straight by track contacts and not the other way.

I take the MTS drive unit off and it works ok in both directions.

Any ideas?


Rgds ian

Sure!

Get rid of all the MTS equipment, buy a ZIMO system and kiss the track contacts etc. etc. GOOD BYE!

[;)][:D][:o)][:D][:D][:D]