Another dumb question.

[Anonymous]

First of all I want to thank everyone for posting such helpful information in my first post. I am really impressed with the amount of people willing to help me.

Well first off I had a little train discussion with the wife today....It went suprisingly
well (She only hit me with the small iron skillet)...But later at the hospital as I was getting my head sewn shut she said she liked the idea of it being a family
hobbie and we could put one in the garden when that project became the priority.
She's thinking 2 years i'm thinking 1.So I have to sell my dirt bikes and all my other hobbies off as well as start other 1st priority projects like plumbing.

Now on to the stupid questions...
Idiot question #1.I have been reading lots of articles about scale and am so
***ed confused I might just throw up..Help.

2. I got a chance to price standard scale ss track today and vomited from sticker shock!
Where can I get cheaper track suitable for this project?
3.Some people have stated I should get a starter set. The starter sets look cheap to me,I can't see spending 340.00 on something cheap when I could buy a 1 ft section of track for that price.And I like diesels like the dash 8 or 9 and all I can find in kits are small steam loco's. Am I wrong?

Thank you for your time folks.
J.Miles (wannabe train guy)

[jasher817]

First Thing is look online for most of your stuff. $340.00 sounds like to much there are starter sets from Bachman in Sams Club for under $150, or there is some very good sets from Aristo Craft that you can get online for less than $200 with shipping. Look around there are better prices around. Why do you want SS track? The brass stuff is a good start and sometimes what you finish with[xx(]

[Gary Crawley]

John

There's never any dumb questions only dumb answers.

First I use Aristo-Craft brass track, pretty good quality and a reasonable price.
Two types available though, 1. USA style (standard gauge) = 14 ties per foot, 2. Euro Style (narrow gauge) = 11 ties per foot.

Second thing to remember (and the one most people get confused about) is that Gauge and Scale are two different things.

A. Gauge = track width eg G, (45mm) space between the rails.

B. Scale = the relationship between a model and its prototype. eg 1:29 or 1:20.3 etc.
For example a box car in 1:20.3 scale would be 1 foot long (model) for every 20 feet of the real thing.

Confusing hey,

In general (not always)
1:29 = standard gauge (4' 8.5")
1:20 = narrow gauge (3')
All run on G scale track.

This is only a small portion of the scale issue, for a complete exclamation refer to the article in the April 2005 addition of Garden Railways titled "A question of scale"

Ia'm glad your wife has become interested in your project, great stuff, BUT remember never, never, never tell her how much that item cost.
Always tell her that you got it cheap, sale, ebay etc.
(my wife doesn't read this forum, thank god)

Not sure on the answer of diesel kits as I live in Australia and I import all my Big Boy's Toy's.

All the best
Good luck
Gary

[ttrigg]

1.I have been reading lots of articles about scale and am so ***ed confused I might just throw up..Help.

DO NOT look at scale until AFTER you have developed your overall concept. Will it be logging, mining etc. What will be your era 1900's, 1940's, 1960's 2000's etc. After you have defined your concept then select the appropriate scale. You will need to watch the size (scale) of the people yo buy too! If you mix scale on your GRR, don't worry about it. Try to have a particular consist all in one scale.

2. I got a chance to price standard scale ss track today and vomited from sticker shock! Where can I get cheaper track suitable for this project?

Brass is a cheaper than SS, numerous times on this form the LGB brass track has been described as "elephant proof". Sturdy stuff it is. "Flex" track is the cheapest (by the foot) buy the curved sections which will also limit what to engines and cars to buy: The smaller your curves the less there is available that looks good going around them. Try to use the largest curves possible, unless you plan on nothing but narrow gauge.

3.Some people have stated I should get a starter set. The starter sets look cheap to me,I can't see spending 340.00 on something cheap when I could buy a 1 ft section of track for that price.And I like diesels like the dash 8 or 9 and all I can find in kits are small steam loco's. Am I wrong?

You should be able to find starter kits for around $185+. Remember a starter set is just to get going. Yes you will eventually move up to a better power supply ($150-$400). Yes you will move up to bigger and better looking cars ($100-$800). Yes you will eventually move on up to bigger and better engines ($300-$3,900). A starter set will get you up and going, then once you are sure that you will continue start getting the stuff one piece at a time. I currently have a $200 passenger starter set (LGB, circa 1890-1930 D&RGW) two larger passenger cars and one box car (Bachmann), one trolley (Bachmann) and a gandydancer (Aristo-Craft) and a few German "shorty" ore and flat cars. My total investment in stuff that moves down the track, somewhere around $650. Track and switches, now that's a different story, almost $4,000. Once I complete phases 1 through 3 (only phase 1 is complete) of my overall construction plan, then and only then will I begin to look for the bigger and better cars and engines. My overall theme is a fictitious branch of D&RGW (Silveton, Antinito-Chama, etc.)

Above all else, remember that this is a hobby, and a hobby is something to relax and enjoy. So what if it is not an appropriate mix of cars/locos, If you are happy with it and enjoy it, then who cares!

[Puckdropper]

Compared to other scales, the cost per linear foot of G scale track is going to seem extremely high. However, the cost of cubic foot of material is likely about the same. It's just G scale track has to be much heavier and stronger.

I do like the Aristocraft track, it's not horribly priced for the standard brass. I believe I read somewhere that you can step on it and not have to worry about it. (I'm sure I did putting Christmas lights up...)

Most the "usual" diesels (GP and SD types) seem to run in the $150-300 range. I was looking at them today online. (I'd kinda like a SD40-2 if I can find one around the $80 mark.)

[Anonymous]

First, I'll say, ...Welcome to the hobby!
I know the prices do seem to be a bit high. But, and I repeat, but,,,,, look at the prices on other hobbies. What would you spend to get into bass fishing? $10-40 thousand for a bass boat, and a pile more for gear and tackle. Get into motorcycles. A new Harley will start at about $15,000, and I don't know anyone that settles for just the basic bike. Cars? That can go up to just about any figure. Sky diving, I don't know anything about, but I know a parachute and airplane rental are definitely not cheap. Just about any hobby can be expensive.
Most hobbies are not family oriented. Garden railroading is one of the few that are. If you follow the general trend, you will be the one most interested in the trains themselves. The wife will be generally more interested in the gardening and landscaping part. Kids go nuts over watching and operating the trains. Everyone seems to like doing the buildings and figures and setting up scenes. Garden railroading is one of very few hobbies where building the layout requires to learn about carpentry, electrics, metal working, engineering, landscaping, construction, and the list goes on.
When you consider that it is, or can be, a joint family project, then it is much less expensive than individual hobbies.
don't worry too much about scale to start with. Get some track down on the ground, and a train running. You will be surprised at the interest shown by people that you would never have suspected would be.

[GP-9_Man11786]

I use Aristo-craft track and hav found it to be good and sturdy. I have walked on more times than I can count and never damaged it. Aristo-craft track also has the advantage of srew-conections at the joints. The only caveat is that their switches are junk. It's better t pay the extra money for LGB switches. I built my railorad using whatever track was the cheapest (the same way the state of New York would build a garden railway) and I have never had a major problem.

[Marty Cozad]

Kevin Strong did one of the best articals on scale/gauge. Can't remember which issue.

[Kiwi Down Under]

J Miles,
No ones mentioned the alternative. Make your own!
Look at www.gscalechuffchuff.com

Its easier than you think and all the money you save you can spend on loco's
Tony

[Anonymous]

I cannot give info about what is available in the US (I assume you are in the US) bur from my experience with various tracks I decided to go with LGB (Euro style obviously). My initial mistake as to think I could get away with laying track directly on earth, but then as the rains came I saw the earth sink and the track with it. Solution - listen to others and do it properly!
From the response you have had from others, there is no need to spend a fortune but do spend time planning and then constructing with as much attention to detail as you can muster. There are many jobs the family can do, so involve them all.
Hope you get started soon
John

[John Busby]

Hi J Miles
forget scale for the moment this is one of the most confusing parts of garden railways made worse by the fact the manufacturers don't put
it on the box.
The start set basically gets trains moving and with careful choice the train will always be of use.
Stainless steel track is an unnecessary luxury you have three choices for track
that I know of
Aristocraft brass good quality comes in Euro and US track a wide variety of curves
available points (switches) I don't like them have had problems with them.
LGB what I use by choice good quality not quite the variety of curves
points (switches)are good.
why I like it, it discolours quicker than Aristocraft rail so blends into
the garden better.
There are sets with small diesels in them just appears to be not as many as steam.
Noting the Locomotive you mention you like take a good look at Aristocraft trains
nearly forgot the third option for track make your own
regards John

[markperr]

J.,

This is a bit long but well worth the read.

In real life when you look at a narrow gauge locomotive (3 foot spacing between the rails) side by side with a standard gauge locomotive (4' 8 1/2" between the rails) the first thing you notice is how absolutely huge the standard loco is compared to the narrow.

Because, in this hobby, both narrow and standard gauge share the same size track, it INVERSELY affects the size of the locomotives when compared side by side. In other words, the narrow gauge locomotive may just very well be bigger in physical size than the standard locomotive, even though in real life it's the other way around.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say everything, standard and narrow were scaled out at 1/29th, which is the defacto size for "G" scale standard gauge. When you take the actual spacing of the real life standard gauge track, this is with track spacing at 4' 8 1/2", and divide it by 29 you come out to 1 3/4". That's the size of "G" scale track. If you take narrow gauge track which, in real life, is three feet wide and divide that by the same 29, then the "G" scale spacing between the rails comes out to only 1 1/4" wide. A full 1/2" narrower. If we could do that, then everything in this scale would look identically proportionate to it's 1:1 scale brethren. But since, we don't do that and we all use the same size track, the narrow gauge trains have to be larger in order to look proportionately correct to the track spacing.

On to other matters.

If your budget allows, and it sound like yours doesn't right now, then stainless is the way to go. Less corrosion problems means less effort expended on your part to keep the rails clean. Brass rail is about 3/4 the price of stainless. That's not totally true. Aristo brass track is about 3/4 the price of Aristo stainless. LGB brass track is more expensive than Aristo or USAT (which are identical, BTW), but I'm not sure that it's as expensive as stainless. Be that as it may, your best bet for purchasing brass track is just around the corner. Aristocraft has it's annual five boxes for the price of four sale coming up next month and it lasts through the end of February. If you buy from one of the large mail order houses that you'll find in the pages of GR, the track will price out to around $2.25-$2.40/foot once you factor in the free box of track. That's a whole lot cheaper than the four to five bucks a foot you'll pay at your local hobby shop. Keep in mind when you decide to buyt track, that bigger locos and rolling stock like bigger curves, so eight foot diameter curves is the MINIMUM size you should consider. If you have the room, bigger is even better. Aristo's track comes in curves as wide as 20' diameter.

Locomotives:

A big locomotive, which is what it sounds like what you want, will tax the power abilities of the power supply that you normally get with a starter set. I believe the biggest loco offered in any starter set is the NW-2 which is offered by USA trains. It's a four axle switcher.

I'd recommend that you consider buying a beefier power supply from the outset if you're looking to go the route of the dash-8 or dash-9. Most deliver 10 amps or better. You won't be dissapointed as the power supply will be able to handle three to four or more big diesels. The money you save from not buying a starter set can be applied to buying the bigger diesels and better power supply.

My first purchase when I got into this hobby, was an aristo RS-3 loco, sixty feet of aristo brass track, an ultima 10 amp power supply and a train engineer wireless remote with two receivers. It cost me $700 dollars in February of 1998, but I still have every bit of that equipment and I use it every time I run my trains. Well worth the investment, since I am NOT nice to my trains. They stay out in the elements for most of the year and the rolling stock needs only an occasional lubrication. As a matter of fact, my t/e and power supply are sitting on my front porch under six inches of snow. Told you I abuse my stuff!!!!

Mark

[Anonymous]

Mark, Thank you for your version of the guage explanation,I understood every bit of it and am now clear on the subject. As for the starter set,we are on the same wavelength in terms of thinking. I'm the kind of guy that typicaly buys the best and takes time to do it right rather than running out and getting stuff just so I can run trains. I have a particular picture in my head
and will stop at nothing to achive the perfect something I am envisioning.
So I have made the decision to go with aristo-craft diesel engines(SD-45) maybe
3 or 4 and aristo-craft track most likely 300 feet of it with 12 to 15 foot curves ,pulling20 or so burlington northern hoppers and boxcars. And will buy a quality transformer for track power along with wireless controllers.The diesels will all have the digital sounds installed by Phoenix.
diesels are large and loud and mine will be also. My layout will be large and have few buildings,mostly forests and large meadows with cows horses and such and maybe
i'll copy marty's bridge. His layout is very close to what I have in my head.

It must be really cool to look outside your window and see your layout coverd in snow
including your weatherd and a bit rusty diesels.
I live in florida so I guess i'll never experience that,I guess its a tradeoff being able to run
trains all year long.
I want to thank each and every person who responded to this thread with your helpful information.

[Puckdropper]

QUOTE:
It must be really cool to look outside your window and see your layout coverd in snow
including your weatherd and a bit rusty diesels.

Layout? I got one of those??? It was around here somewhere, let me see now... I know the track passes between the gazebo and Tiki torch, so let's start digging here.

That's a humourous way to say I dug through 2' (unscaled) of snow to get to the track.

[Greg Elmassian]

If cost is an issue, I'd look to aluminum track and battery power.

If you are running track power, the investement in SS has paid off for many. I think when you get into the hobby, the cost of the track will be much less than the trains.

The extremely lower maintenance of SS lets you spend more time running than cleaning.

Regards, Greg

[piercedan]

I started out with a starter set and when I knew what I wanted to do I got the Elite by Aristo and the 27 MHZ setup for trackside power.

I still use items from the starter set, the power pack is great for bench testing engines and lit up cars.

I even used the Bachman straight track as a test track in my workshop.

I have since purchased more starter sets and have found that the 1 amp power packs are in demand by others for small projects. Biggest problem is no one wants the R1 4 foot diameter curves.

Note: I found LGB toytrain sets one year for $50. This was engine, 2cars, power pack and track. These engines now sell for over $100 by themselves.

[markperr]

j.

Thanks for the kind words. Glad I could help. As for me, I'm afraid I'm over til spring. Had four inches on the ground and got another six the other night. Weatherman calling for another four to six day after tomorrow. Since I'm not yet battery powered, it is very frustrating trying to keep the engines running in this type of weather. It takes very little ice on just one rail to stop the flow of electricity, sooooooo......... I'll retreat to my garage for the winter and start getting ready for next season. Oh, and BTW, my trains, are all inside now. My p/s is still under the snow, but I'll most likely pull it out from underneath pretty soon.

Mark

[Dick Friedman]

I've had very good operation with aluminum track and track power. Aluminum is the next best conductor to copper. In code 250 size it's not as robust at code 332 (which is the size of LGB and Aristocraft).

Join a club, as it's a good place to pick up used (but not abused) equipment, power supplies, and track. Don't ask me how I know this. And it's a good place to get questions answered, and view other people's solutions to common problems.

Finally, a club is the best way to introduce wives, sisters, moms, and aunts to the joys of garden railroading.

[turntable1]

I am having trouble with my Lionel G gauge switch. I only get power on the side track if I hold the rail together with my finger, I would like to know how to make the rail stay against the other one to keep the power on, would like some help with this one, thanks, turntable 1.

[Puckdropper]

turntable1,

You need to start a new topic for this. Simply click on the "Post New Topic" link and type a subject and your message. It should be point, click, type, point, click, type, point, click. and you're done. (Pointing is simply moving the mouse cursor to a specific location on screen.)