brake car dynamic or otherwise

[Rastun]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rayf

thanks to all for replies and suggestions i should probably explain my problem on downgrades my totally rebuilt lgb mikado surges all of my cars have metal wheelsand are have 830 kd body mount couplers i accidentially hooked my lgb track cleaner to the caboose one day and decided to drag the cleaner around to be able to take it off the track during that experience everything went downgrade just fine i had thought about electric motors in a box car coupled to a remote reostat or something like that i have tried a boxcar with shimed axels to create drag but it was not as much as i need again thanks for any help rayf

Ray,
If you really want something to basically put a drag on the train you may want to look into something like a spring loaded plunger between the axles of the last car. What really comes to mind as having a fair amount of drag right off the bat is Hartland Loco Works Tender truck with electrical pick ups. a set of those on the last car could serve as your brake and if you run track power you now have a power supply to that last car.

Jack

[RhB_HJ]

OK brake cars,

They are still in use today for special purposes. In Switzerland they are most often used for transfer runs i.e. a non-powered engine is moved from A to B and since there's lots of tonnage but no brakes (engine brakes and train brakes are separate!) they add one or two cars to get up to the required brake ratio.

As to keeping things stretched; I have very good video footage from the RhB Bernina line (max. 7% grade) with a railcar at the tailend of a substantial Extra powered by two of the 50s series railcars. The tailend railcar kept things nicely stretched on the downhill from Cavaglia!

[Anonymous]

True Walt as usual i agree with you mate but there was just too much of it. It ,its not just my opinion. The people we have lost also think this way and they have all named the amount of rubbish as being the reason they have lost interest.

Rgds Ian

[rayf]

thanks to all for replies and suggestions i should probably explain my problem on downgrades my totally rebuilt lgb mikado surges all of my cars have metal wheelsand are have 830 kd body mount couplers i accidentially hooked my lgb track cleaner to the caboose one day and decided to drag the cleaner around to be able to take it off the track during that experience everything went downgrade just fine i had thought about electric motors in a box car coupled to a remote reostat or something like that i have tried a boxcar with shimed axels to create drag but it was not as much as i need again thanks for any help rayf

[grandpopswalt]

Ian,

I’ll admit that the content and population of this forum has changed somewhat in the last year but that’s the normal life cycle of any open organization. I make it a point to ignore certain threads and individuals because their posts either don’t interest me or even irritate me. But even these people occasionally make worthwhile contributions to the forum. Without exception, whenever I post a question or request help or information I get extremely good response, and often from the very people that I suspect you’re calling idiots.

One of the things that I like most about this kind of forum is that it’s a democracy. Everyone is allowed his or her opinion and is free to express it as clearly and articulately or as poorly as their talent allows them. And we all have the right to choose weather to read or ignore, to respond or not to our fellow members postings. Example: my interest in railroading is strictly narrow gauge steam. So when I see a post about present-day diesel, I just don’t read it. I also appreciate a well-written post. If I start reading a particularly bad one, I take note of the author and skip to the next one. I probably shouldn’t, because next time that same guy may present us with a gem of wisdom.

I know how frustrating it can be to post a relevant, interesting, timely and brilliantly written posting and have absolutely no one respond to it. Therefore, am I to conclude that all of the forum members are idiots or is it that my contribution just doesn’t interest anyone out there?

Walt

[Curmudgeon]

Ya know, Ian, you had best look at what mindlessness really is all about.

It's one thing to say use something whan it works, does the job, and you can give examles, but when you can't give any better example than "use LGB", best not to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

I don't know who you're talking to about why they've gone, but the conversation I've been privy to is a little more specific.

[Anonymous]

Walt;

I am surprised that you have not noticed that many of our regular contributors are just not doing so these days.

I am also surprised that you have not noticed the deterioration in the standard of subjects on this forum.

I am not prepared to name any person but there is quite a group of people that do not contibute one bit of sense or input any worthwhile information to this forum.

This is not just my opinion, have a bit of think about it yourself and consider the number of regular contributors that have dropped out! And I can tell you it is because of this mindlessness.


Rgds Ian

[tangerine-jack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

Europeans took a very different approach and simply added those little shanties you see on the end of some frieght cars. They would place these every 3 or 4 car and like the British brake van would set or release brakes as needed by the locomotives whistle signals. This was early on really miserable for the brakeman as these seats were often just a open seat on the side of the car next to the brake wheel with little or no weather protection. Rain, snow, hot sun, sand , and soot must have made for a really unpleasant experience. Many of these were enclosed to be just big ebnough for the brakeman to sit in, but at least he was enclosed from the weather and could still do his job although how he went to the can is a question. Of course now you also had 5 to 15 or more brakemen depending on how long the train was -vs- just 2 brakeman in the rear of an Engli***rain.

This might clarify what Vic was talking about and count as a positive contribution to Ian. This example came from france and is known as a "40 & 8" car for the 40 men or 8 horses it could carry.



[oX)]

[Curmudgeon]

Idiots......ah, yes.
Well, I won't go there, other than beginning with "I"....

I know in Live Steam there are some of these used to force the locmotive to really work and "bark" and keep under control when the ...er....idiots just let it go with no r/c of any kind.

Seen a couple of the cars, seem to work okay.

Personally the only time I've seen any problem with needing one is with LGB.
Seriously.
I come down a 4% with 15-20, and you can't stop it.
Double-lead worms do that.

It's not a bad thing, you just have to compensate and plan ahead.

TOC

[grandpopswalt]

Ian,

I honestly don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't aware that we were having this particular problem on this forum. What exactly are these "idiots" writing (or not writing) that has you so upset? And may I point out that your oft used phase " I don't use (pick a subject) so I don't see why anyone else should either" has gotten a little irritating over time but no one has yet complained to you about it, until now.

As you point out, this is an open and international forum so that what you and your group of like-minded friends consider "germain" isn't necessarily a reflection of the opinions of most of the rest of the forum members.

Walt

[Anonymous]

For information of all I am not in any sort of unhappy state, during the last four months I have had a terrific time in Europe, came back and went whale watching with my two favourite grandchildren. then went for a week up on the Great Barrier Reef snorkeling over coral and among brightly coloured tropical fish.

If that doesnt make you feel good nothing will.

No, what my problem is i have been talking to some friends of mine that are really good people, who have stopped making contributions to this forum. We are talking about 10 - 12 peole from 5 different countries that have had enough of the idiots that have come onto this forum.

The people I am talking about have all got at least 3 stars so they have had quite a bit to say in the past but just don't bother now.

I know myself i have had a look at all the subjects on offer and they have left me lost for interest, and i am a person with an opinion on everything.

I can tell you what i am saying is quite true, as their has been some talk about it in emails and in person.

Torby I am going to make an apology to you in advance but you are the very epitome of the problem. This doesn't mean i think you are to blame for this mindlessness but it is your types of comments with little or no substance and poor english, that is pretty typical of what people are complaining about.

I hope we can get our act together.

Rgds Ian

[tangerine-jack]

You guys are killing me! I have a Model RR mag from the '80s that has an article on just that, an HO scale car with a drag brake installed to keep tension on the train, as Ian quite lucidly concluded, to prevent unsafe operating conditions. The killing part is I built a few of these, now I can't find the stupid #$%@ [censored] issue I made it from so I can reference, scan and post the article.

I don't know of any specialized full sized cars that do this, as modern brakes are all computer controlled anyway it doesn't seem a worthwhile investment. It does exist in the model world! It also prevents your steel axle cars from being pulled into uncoupling magnets, and makes the train accelerate in an oh-so-realistic manner by enabling a nice slack take-off.

Bob, Turk- get a room you two!
[oX)]

[vsmith]

Never heard of anything like this as a model train car in large scale or small scale.

Best of my knowledge is the English Brake Van, these were used on trains back in the days of steam before air brakes on frieght cars were very common. Rather than risk a brakemans life going from car to car to set hand brakes (most early British lines often had very low tunnels and bridge clearencess) or later install expensive air brakes on every frieght car , the Brits developed the concept of using a specialist last car to act as the braking mechanism for the train. This was doable since most trains were short and the curves generous, using the rear car to slow the train worked well into the 20th century. The brake vans job was to assist the locomotive in controling the speed of the locomotive by acting as a drag on the freight cars. This was done via a large capstan like brake wheel mounted on middle of the floor (of the ones I've seen) were the brakeman would apply or release the brakes to control the trains speed , mostly on down grades or when approaching a stop. The combined power of the locomotives braking capacity and the brake vans drag would help control these dynamic of the slowing frieght car to keep the cars from piling onto the rear buffers and pushing the locomotive forward if the engine applied brakes alone. This was a BIG problem with early American trains. It was also far safer for the brakeman who was in an enclosed car and not hopping a roof deck in a snowstorm to "down brakes" like his American counterpart. Of course as more freight cars were replaced and fitted with air brakes the brake van simply became a crew car like its American cousin the caboose or dissappeared entirely. Passenger trains, small early ones often had brake vans also, but these were the first to go when George Westinghouses air brake system started appearing over the pond.

Europeans took a very different approach and simply added those little shanties you see on the end of some frieght cars. They would place these every 3 or 4 car and like the British brake van would set or release brakes as needed by the locomotives whistle signals. This was early on really miserable for the brakeman as these seats were often just a open seat on the side of the car next to the brake wheel with little or no weather protection. Rain, snow, hot sun, sand , and soot must have made for a really unpleasant experience. Many of these were enclosed to be just big ebnough for the brakeman to sit in, but at least he was enclosed from the weather and could still do his job although how he went to the can is a question. Of course now you also had 5 to 15 or more brakemen depending on how long the train was -vs- just 2 brakeman in the rear of an Engli***rain.

A great example of the open seat brakeman can be seen in the Movie "The Train" with Burt Lancaster, where the Germies can be seen riding the open hot seats on the frieght cars.

Dont know if this is what you were looking for but I thought I'd "edjacate" you anayway...

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Yes, we do that on the big Crowley barges, use a harbor tug to push/steer. However, many ship tows utilize the drag tow to clothesline and make the tow stay in line with the towing tug. Also do that one to keep Crowley tows under control when weather is too nasty to push, but still need tight control of tow.

I much agree about the danger of towing without help in restricted waters; I remember the night "The Coronel" had the "Monarch" and she lost an engine and that idiot slowed the remaining engine --- the barge darn near hit the QE2 which was tied up at the dock, and the chief came up and slammed her full ahead and told him to keep his &^%^&^&^$%^^ hands off the throttles; and I had wakened my relief man and we were outside the wheelhouse ready to jump overboard if that idiot tried any other stupid manuvers! Soon after that they started requiring the helper tug instead of leaving it up to the capt; while hollering about the cost of the helper boat.

Turk, did you have the "Sea Walrus" at one time?

[Anonymous]

Most of the time the tug on the stern of a tow is pushing, and increases the speed that the tow can make. They are there to steer the tow as you stated. Also they are there to slow the tow, or stop it from running over the towing tug. It is "VERY" dangerous to tow inland without a tail tug. All you have to do is touch bottom for a few seconds and the tow will run over you. Most towing companies in the Gulf of Mexico will fire a captain for towing inland without a tail tug. They hate to pay for the repairs to the tug and tow when the tow runs over the tug. A lot of Yankees will tow inland without a tail, but I wonder about the sanity of anyone that will live in the far icey north, anyway.[(-D][(-D] I won't tow inland without a tail, period. I've seen too many tugs come in with the whole stern of the boat, the stack , and towing winch smashed from towing inland without a tail.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

You talking that it's kinda like dragging an anchor behind? I've seen tows that drag another tug astern of the tow for directional control in restricted waters (rather like clotheslining), but they don't like to do that as it slows overall forward progress at considerable cost of fuel expenditure!

Would seem to me that having a drag on the end of the train would very quickly wear down the brakes on that car, and probably require special cooling! Would also accentuate the dynamic pull on the couplers of the more foreward units and risking failure of the couplers, thus reducing the number of cars that could be in that train.

Ian,
I was just pointing out that I have noted that you tend to become more acerbic in your comments on a rather cyclical basis! Not to worry, we all have our ups & downs! Some of these guys seem to try to bait you at times! Makes the reading more interesting.

[Anonymous]

No i truely do not know much about brake cars I don't think we have much of it in Australia as it is a very flat country, except for the Great Dividing range.

As I understood it you have the last rolling stock at the rear of the train as a braking device so that at all times or at least most of the time the loco will be pulling the train, and not having the train pu***he loco; which could lead to unsafe and untenable situations, ie overspeed, derailing etc.

Is this correct?

rgds ian

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Maybe it's just that time of the month down under!

[tangerine-jack]

ON my HO layout I used to have a few cars with a small spring between the bolster and axle to act as a sort of retarder. This gave the train a little more realistic braking and "slack take off". I don't think it would be worthwhile for the garden as the cars and locos are much heavier and the laws of physics takes over. I suppose if you have a lot of grades, then a few random cars set up with a retarder spring would be helpful in the realism department.

Definitions:
1. Ignorance: not knowing something, a lack of knowlege, curable with information
2. Stupidity: knowing you are ignorant and failing to correct the problem.
We try on this forum to avoing becoming definition#2, but at the same time we try to have fun and often engage in a little harmless sillyness. Ian, please don't confuse #1 and #2.




[oX)]

[Tom The Brat]

Aww, go ahead[:-,]

[Curmudgeon]

"I don't know much about them I wouldn't mind hearing from someone as well.

This is an interesting and worthwhilw subject so i don't like your chances on this forum, too many idiots."

This has gotta be a classic.
You don't know much about them, so therefore they must be an interesting and (sic) worthwhilw subject.

God help us.

That must make about everything an interesting and worthwhilw subject?

No, I won't say it.

[Puckdropper]

I can think of three possible forms of brake car...

One would be a model that had a motor wired to it to act as dynamic brakes. Since the dynamics would provide electrical current, you could concieveably power something. Don't know why you'd want to do this... if you want your train to run slower turn down the power. If you want to power something from track power, put power pick ups on the wheels.

Another would be a car designed to roll with considerably more friction and resistance in order to slow the train's descent down a hill. In the steam days many braking systems allowed the train crew to make each car act like that (retarders). After the advent of dynamic braking, however, they became obsolete. (An aside here: They're not obsolete, they've just changed from their location on the freight car to track side. They're used in hump yards to control the speed of the car being humped.)

The last is the "brake van" which is rather like a caboose. Don't hold me to this, I'm not quite sure about what I read and watched several years ago.

[Rastun]

I'd like the hear what you think this brake car should do or what it's purpose is.

[Anonymous]

I don't know much about them I wouldn't mind hearing from someone as well.

This is an interesting and worthwhilw subject so i don't like your chances on this forum, too many idiots.

Rgds ian

[rayf]

need to hear from others about brake cars ???