Sound System Disbelief!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

The cost of a sound system and the cost of a locomotive have nothing to do with each other. Two very different sets of manufacturing techniques altogether, and as the saying goes you only get what you pay for. Pay peanuts and you will get monkeys.

I have heard sound systems in some cheaper brand locos and it is hardly worth listening too, very soft and not realistic..

I have also heard a Phoenix sound system, pretty expensive (even more than LGB) but it was terrific and very versatile as well. Unfortunately as Doreen is an accountant we cannot justify the extra cost at this stage.

Just now I have put an LGB electric sound in my ICE train and what a difference it makes. Incidentall y we drilled out the base of the vehicle making a grate kind of, and it increased the volume three fold!

Hey Torby will you do me a favour and just once make an entry in plain engli***hat makes sense and is germain to the subject. It is similar stuff to what you are going on with that are turning good people away from this forum and they are my friends.


Thanks ian

We had a laugh when we were at Troy's place we put it in and old steam loco and we had it running around the track sounding like a modern day electric train.


Rgds ian

[Tom The Brat]

Morning, Ian.

(It says you're reading this topic at the same time I am[:D])

[Anonymous]

I finally got my two DSX decoders. Installed the Shay sound decoder in my Heisler. It's not the loudest, but for the money, it's just fine with me.
I don't like the sound real loud, anyway. From 30-40' away, I can just hear it. Up close, it's plenty loud. The sound level is just about perfect. It's the same as I have set on my other sound equipped locos.
The installation was a snap. Two wires to the track picups, two wires to the speaker, and one to the chuff contacts. Just be sure and use the supplied capacitor and resistor.
Soundtraxx reccommends that you program the decoder seperately and to a different address than the motor decoder. I'm using a Digitrax DG583S. I programmed the sound decoder as the same address before I read all the destructions. It worked with no problem.
One thing I did find. The volume level of the decoder is turned down to about half volume when I got it. Using a LocoBufferII and the JMRI decoder programming software made it easy to reprogram. If you are running DCC I definetly reccommend getting the LocoBuffer and using your PC to program your decoders. It's sooooo....much easier! Just move the slider with your mouse and click!

I didn't install the speaker in the place provided on the Hiesler. A 2" speaker will not fit in it. I already had a 2" speaker, so I glued it to the white cover from a roll of teflon pipe tape, and covered the back with a disk of styrene. I painted it black and slid it into the back window of the cab. I stuck it to the cab back wall with some double sided tape. You have to look fo it to see it.
The whistle is just a tad anemic, but everything else works fine. I will not be adding an extra amplifier, although I did add a 1/8" plug on the back of the coal tender and wired it parrallel to the speaker. I can add speakers and an amplifier later by putting it into a boxcar behind the loco. I tried my amplified computer speakers plugged into the hack and just about broke my eardrums before I could get it turned down. [:D] the computer speakers laid end to end will just fit in an old time cattle car if I decide I want it louder.

One other note. The chuff mechanizm in the Heisler sucks. I ended up turning on the auto chuff. With a little bit of diddling with chuff rate it seems to match quite closely.
Am I happy with it, and would I recommend it? You bet' cha. You want sound relatively cheap and easy? The DSX 's are it. Will I buy anymore? ..Just ordered four more!

[Curmudgeon]

or giving it away with other stuff that won't sell......

[TonyWalsham]

To the best of my knowledge the two most popular sound systems for LS are both made in the USA. As is another that is not as sophisticated but less expensive.
I am surprised you get them as cheaply as you do considering the small size of the market and the high cost of manufacturing in the USA.
The same high costs apply here in Australia too.
Notwithstanding the high cost of making electronics in Australia compared to, say China, I can still sell my RCS R/C competitively priced compared with the low cost mass made Chinese stuff.
I only survive in this business because I do it better than my Chinese made competition and the word spreads without mass, big budget advertising.

[Curmudgeon]

Tom, I thought I'd covered those internet tracks when I hacked your e-mail......

OTOH, there are outfits out there that consider cost alone to be the deciding factor in sound.
Look at what one manufacturer used, and the failure rates.
There is an issue in smaller scales where APPARENTLY cost was the only concern, and "greeting card technology" was used, with a failure rate exceeded only by customer dissatisfaction.

To have something that triggers the way you want it to, is loud and clear enough, draws as little power as possible, and is of a size that will fit your application, these things are more difficult, and difficulty means money.

TOC

[Tom The Brat]

TOC, are you reading my mail or something[:-^]

Of course, a little luck doesn't hurt anything.

[Curmudgeon]

Costs include service, advertising, upgrades, paying staff to assemble the items, test them, ship them, answer idiotic questions.
There have been some try to make "cheap" sound and control systems, without factoring all of the above, and they are either gone or never went into production.
Some build all their own stuff on-site (cheaper), some contract it out (more money).

Build a better mousetrap, but factor all your costs or visit bankrupt city.

TOC

[jnichols]

As an FYI for all you I want a sound chip for less than $100 folks, Soundtraxx has recently slashed their pricing in the wake of all the new sound chip manufacturers coming to market. Several online stores have the DSX sound decoders for less than $70! Put this with the Airwire system, and you could have sound and control in each locomotive for less than $150!

Jeff

[Tom The Brat]

Business is rough. Building the better mousetrap is a small part of getting a product into people's hands.

[mgilger]

[:(!]Just think how much faster the MFG would pay off their development cost if they lowered the prices to a more realistic (affordable) level. They would sell more units. Selling more units would get them bigger discounts from their suppliers. It would be a win-win for everyone. A low cost alternative is the answer, so lets hope one is in the works. I would think $100 [:p] or less range that none of use could resist putting sound in all of our engines. As it is now, most of us might only consider it for a very few.

My 2 cents.
Mark

[Anonymous]

Jon, now that's a clean little putt.
One of the advantages of riding a rat is, it's a lot less likely to get stolen! Alot of my bikes could have been left on Main Street , downtown Houston, with the keys in it(if it had had a key) with a sign on it that said steal me, and no one would have bothered it.

It's not that I couldn't build a nice one. I owned a chopper shop for a little over a year and built one that made Easy Rider Magazine back in the 70's. And,,, with a rat, you don't have to worry about the bike falling down when it gets drunk! [:D][:D]

[highrailjon]

I'm with you on that one Capt. Turk!!!![:D] Why buy when you can build for less!!!
(of course I try to stay away from the bailing wire thing!![;)])

[Anonymous]

I've seen good products fail several times because of a manufacturer trying to recoup developement costs too quickly. They price the item so high that they don't end up selling enough of them to justify continued production.
The statement was made about things becoming outdated in a couple of years. I for one tend to find that those outdated items are the ones that I usually buy. I'll leave it to others to pay the outrageous prices to have the latest and newest. There are alot of people that follow the same procedure. Look at the computer market. The majority of sales are the lower level, outdated, definitely not the latest and greatest. My point is, even if a product is supposedly outdated, there are still plenty of people that will buy it. As in computers, when the new computers come out, the older models drop drastically in price. Those are the ones I buy, and I'm sure that there are a great many people that do the same. How many people do you know that wait for the new model cars to come out, and then buy last years model. They save alot of money, and still get a brand new car.
Anyway, enough of my rambling.

When I recieve the decoders, I'll see if I can't put something together and post it. I must warn you ahead of time, most of my work tends to be of the hay wire variety. lol. It usually ain't purty, but it works. I guess it's just the sailor in me. Jury rig it, make it work, do the job, and let the boss worry about fixing it right and making it pretty, if he wants to. As long as it works, *** the looks. lol.

When I used to ride motorcycles, my bikes were almost always rat bikes. I've had alot of people turn up their noses and make snide comments about my bikes. After getting to know me, they always ended up wanting to ride with me. My bikes always looked like hell, were held together with bailing wire and duct tape, but they always started, and they always ran. [:D]

[grandpopswalt]

HJ,

After the "base" product is developed, future releases are usually enhancements that require very little additional developement cost. Therefore, I believe that the recovery of initial and subsequent developement costs could and should be spread over a much longer time. Actually, if the price were reduced sustanially it would result in greatly increased sales that would probably offset the reduction in margin.

Walt

[highrailjon]

As long as we're throwing quotes around, here is a quote some may find useful:

QUOTE: A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right
Thomas Paine - Common Sense

[;)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpopswalt

................................................................ I also agree that development costs have to be factored into the selling price but it's unreasonable to expect to recoup them in just a couple years.

Walt

Hi Walt,

Following the sound board / sound decoder development in a cursory manner I would suspect that the mfgs need to recover the costs "in a couple of years".
Most likely many of the mfgs are already working on the next generation to be available in xx months, which means that today's items will then be old hat. Either to be discontinued or reduced in price.

[grandpopswalt]

Capt Turk,

Please do let us know how your modifications work out, I'd be very interested in following your lead. And I agree that the sound system mfg's are charging what the market will bear and that the prices don't reflect actual cost. I also agree that development costs have to be factored into the selling price but it's unreasonable to expect to recoup them in just a couple years.

Walt

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TheJoat

Good reminders, HJ!

I like this one from Oscar Wilde

QUOTE: I am not young enough to know everything

but can't recall the horse one at all....in fact the only one I can find about horses and oats is from Arthur Baer

QUOTE: Alimony is like buying oats for a dead horse.

Hi Bruce,

The one about the oats goes something like this ( I don't remember the exact wording and it isn't a Oscar Wilde quote):

"When you're in the market for oats, you can pay the going price for fresh oats or you can get them much cheaper, after they've gone through the horse."

[;)][;)][:)]

[ttrigg]

Capt Turk;

For the electronicaly ignorant like ME, when you do get this working, please enclose a diagram and parts list. ( list in a format so I can go into Radio Shack and hand the guy the list and say "I want this") You will have to KISS it twice for a nuckle head like me. Lots of verbage too!

[Anonymous]

I just went to Tonys Trains and ordered 2 of the DSX sound decoders. They are $66.00 each. From what I've been able to find out, all that is necessary to run them in G scale is a 39 ohm resistor in the power leads. They have a 1 watt amplifier, so the sound won't be very loud. For about $10, I can build an amp to increase the power to 5 watts.
I'll try to report back here with the results after I get them installed.

[TheJoat]

Have you looked at Sierra sound? They show one for a Shay for $189. I've been very pleased with the Sierra sounds in my locomotives, though I'll have to admit that the DSX version leaves something to be desired in large scale.

I have the Shay sound in a locomotive that is battery operated with R/C by RCS. It's a pleasure to hear it run at the different speeds as well as to be able to blow the whistle and ring the bell. Fireman Fred doesn't do as much for me, but I know that I wouldn't be happy with a tape recording of a Shay.

[TheJoat]

Good reminders, HJ!

I like this one from Oscar Wilde

QUOTE: I am not young enough to know everything

but can't recall the horse one at all....in fact the only one I can find about horses and oats is from Arthur Baer

QUOTE: Alimony is like buying oats for a dead horse.

[RhB_HJ]

Hi all,

QUOTE: Too many people today know the price of everything and the value of nothing

and

QUOTE: The only thing to do with good advice is pass it on. It is never any use to oneself.

both from Oscar Wilde 1854-1900

There's also a quote about the oats which have gone through the horse, but details escape me at the moment. [;)][}:)][:)][:)]

[Anonymous]

When I can buy a new computer, or a LCD color TV for less than $300 I can come to no conclusion other than the price of the sound systems is very over inflated.
I realize that the production is much more limited, and the work required to write the software, but I still think that they are just charging as much as they figure the market will bear. There is so little competition in the market that they can get away with it, so they do it.
A sound only decoder for Ho can be had for about $100. There's no way anyone can convince me that a voltage dropping network, or voltage regulator, to drop the input voltage from 22 to 12 volts is worth $200. Even if a more powerful audio amplifier is included, that's not more than $3 worth of parts.
Myself? Well, I'm getting out the soldering gun, make a quick trip to the Outhouse(Radio Shack) and put a Ho sound decoder in mine.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Whoa! Aren't we retrogressing to the original sound systems of the 1950's Lionel & Am Flyer? Don't I recall some sort of billboard thingy that issued the sounds and had a remote push button for the whistle?

That $ 50.00 item of the 50's would be how much now??? Look at all these new systems do for you! For one thing, I can tell where an engine is on the back side of my mountain simply by following it's onboard sound! Sound stops, I know that the excrement has hit the rotating turret.

Given the improvements, what more they can do than the old stuff, and how exactly realistic they are, and factor in the inflation and I don't thik they are overpriced! Sure, It would take an idiot not to want to get it cheaper, but they're not really overpriced!

[folkestonekeith]

Hey guys, at US$295 for a top-notch sound system for the Shay you've got it cheap!!! Tommorrow I collect my Bachmann Shay into which I've had a Pheonix Sound System fitted as well as LGB decoders so that I can run the loco on my MTS-Based system.

Price of the Sierra Sound system here is about US$425 and after you factor in the cost of the LGB decoders and labour I've got one hell of an expensive model - however, it's not only a great sound system but also control of other features lights, smoke system etc.

Despite the cost I'm not complaining.....last year I had my Bachmann Heisler given the same treatment and no regrets whatsoever!!! I can't wait until I get the Shay home, set it up on the line at dusk and watch it crawl up the garden chasing the Heisler, lamps ablaze, whistle blaring and those unique Shay and Heisler sounds. Bliss!!

[Buckeye Riveter]

Okay, here's and idea and it may or may not even be feasible. Home Deport used to sell wireless speakers for your patio, deck, backyard, etc. for less than $100.00. Is there a way to take the electronics out of one of those speakers and put it in a tender or car with a smaller speaker? You could use your existing CD player or computer to play any sound you wanted including your own recordings. [?][?][?]

BTW, I wouldn't be without sound in my steam engines. It draws a crowd.

[highrailjon]

Here is another option for $60.00.:

Panasonic Digital Recorder RR-QR160
Large, easy-to-read display.

Records up to eight hours
Dictation recording mode
Three recording modes: high quality, fine qualityand standard play
Five folders hold up to 99 recorded files each
Highly sensitive microphone
Voice-activated system
Requires two AAA batteries (sold separately)