Battery power

[Curmudgeon]

I attempt to do every install on-baord, semi-permanently installed batteries (which are changeable when you "need" to).
Climaxes, batteries, radio, SOUND, all on-board.
Charge jack in back.
AuxBatts for extended run.
I just had to do one in an LGB 2085 with factory sound the guy wanted to keep.
No room for batteries without filling the cab, so trail car batteries, all the rest on-board.
The Shay I did for him at the same time has all on-board.
Done all sorts of euro locos with all on-board.
Doing a GP-38 right now with 4.5AH NiMH in 16.8v configuration.
I do it all the time, have for over 10 years, and my first ever install in an old 2018D is still running.
I get 5-6 years of life out of my NiCads.
Heavy use.
I HATE, and I mean HATE, cutting shells loose so you can pick them off to swap batteries.

They rattle, chip paint, and someone is always trying to "help" put it back on...


I don't make this up, I don't "home-brew" equipment, I have never, ever had a problem.

One guy claimed the stuff didn't work, which was bull hockey, so I sent him another set, it didn't work, then I found out he had an "agenda", the throttle went in my spare 2-8-0, which he had installed it in, and it has run flawlessly since the day I put it in.


Nobody believes me, they think this can't be, until they come by, and the arguments come to a full stop.

TOC

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by troybetts
.....................................................
What I am saying is that with track power DCC multiple trains can be run.
HJ gets very passionate about his Zimo system and does not post on this subject.
...........................................................

Hi Troy,

Hmmmm, I don't get that passionate about ZIMO or any other DCC system. [;)][:)]

I actually considered battery power, even phoned Dave (TOC) about price and turnaround time (five years ago). But then went with ZIMO because I run equipment from N to LS and was looking for the most versatile solution that will fit any/all of those scales.
I'm also crazy enough to design my GR to have a point-to-point operating pattern, model RhB with relatively small engines (smaller batteries) and trailing battery cars make RhB proto operation "a bit" of a nuisance.[;)][:)]

All that said, I also value Dave's and Tony's expertise and honesty on many a subject, not just battery power, so there's no need for me to get into a pi..... match about this. [;)][;)][}:)][:)][:)]

[TonyWalsham]

Unfortunately, with many "In the loco" battery installations, removing the batteries for charging is not an option.
Not without drastic body surgery anyway.

The really simple solution to the problem is to have the biggest capacity batteries possible inside the loco, even if that is not much. A SPDT type jack and a DPDT ON-OFF switch are wired up for the jack to act as port for extra trail car batteries. Simply plugging in the trail car batteries disconnects the loco batteries. The jack can be mounted unobtrusively on the back, the front, or both.
Then, if virtually continuous running is desired it would be a simple matter of swapping trail car batteries. Much easier than a loco.

I have the circuit available for free which uses regularly available Radio Shack parts and will work with any brand of R/C or any type of battery. Even LiPol provided the battery has inbuilt monitoring electronics.

[cabbage]

Well I DO model in 16mm, and in my case it is pop the top and pull on the length of ribbon and the SLA comes straight out!!!

Total time taken to change a battery -maybe 30 seconds....

The 'small persons' locos run on NiMH AA cells -as do most of their toys so we always have a goodly stock of charged ones.

The only large loco to use NiMH has an onboard charger and takes 12VDC through sockets located in the smoke stacks.

regards

ralph

[John Busby]

Hi puck dropper
dont know about the US but those modelling 16mm scale if its running on
the same batteries you get down the supermarket its open battery hatch change batteries.
If it is rechargables generaly used on good quality locomotives isolate batery plug in charger and when battery had it take off locomotive body or battery car roof and change battery.
regards John

[Puckdropper]

I have a question... perhaps I should start a new thread on it, but it belongs here...

When charging the batteries for those who use them, how is it done? Do you have to remove the cover from the cars, run a cable to the battery? Could charging be accomplished reliably through the rails?

I'm thinking on some larger garden railroads the railroad could be broken up into districts where the power gets changed. You run it over to maintenance tracks and there's power in those rails to charge the batteries. That'd seriously reduce both handling and the amount of track you'd have to power. (Plus, you can follow a fairly common prototype practice--if you want to.)

[BudSteinhoff]

TOC
Your statement
"Yes, that will do it, if hooked in parallel....as long as you reverse both at exactly the same time....
Seen the damage 15 amps will do inside a loco when it derails at that amperage.
Not Interested, thankyouverymuch.
30 amps. On one 110v breaker.
How often do you have to put new bearings in your power meter?"


They are hooked in parallel, reverse what??? Permanent polarity connected to track, never change.
Also track power allows me to run my MTH DCS system, can battery power do that???

Again 7 years no fried loco's or even any electrical damage caused by derailments, use many in line track fuses though.

110 has a 15 amp breaker, never has blown, power meter is fine, so what is your point, it works??? How is your power meter???

Bud[8D]

[Anonymous]

Very good Dave.I understand what you are saying.I have never doubted your expertise.I also agree that you have achieved what you want to with your batteries.
What I am saying is that with track power DCC multiple trains can be run.
HJ gets very passionate about his Zimo system and does not post on this subject.
I run the (limited) MTS system.I think we need someone with a *** good knowledge of DCC systems to stick up for track power.I don't have that knowledge.
I still stand by what I say though.
In the UK I don't know of a battery system that can equal track power on price.
You have no idea of prices here.
I went to a really big radio control car shop and explained what I wanted to do.
Blank faces.
I know that Tony's system is in the country.
Hmmmmm
I don't think that system is going to compete with----who?
Welcome to rip off Britain.

[Curmudgeon]

Troybetts....
Long as you understand where this started.
Remember this?
"We run all operating session before dawn, (best to view all the lighted cars) till dusk and sometime till midnight. Then, the next day, we do it again. Don't have to wait till later in the week when the bats are charged......
We sold our AuxBatts, to an RC car guy and bought 3 more locos. Run them on.. reverse loops and all.
No wiring.
Clamps keep our rails straight. No bonds. No feeders. No banks of chargers. No uncharged batteries after power outages.
No jumpers between locos and trailing cars, no trailing cars either.
No track cleaning, no wheel cleaning, two sets of worn out "skates" (12 bucks, big deal), no clamped down track because it floats just like the real thing."

and this:
"Second, Bob, do you want to tell these wonderful folks or you want me to?
How 12-15 LGB engines a year die on your rr?
How it's been "abandoned" and won't run for 18 months?
About home-brewed battery stuff where you burn your shed down?
I have it all saved, if you want me to post it, but I'll give you first crack at it"


Truth can be varied, depending on the viewpoint of the teller, and I have no problem with that.
Just get it all out, and don't be telling one thing on one site then go to another and try to make everyone think your stuff runs perfectly.


That's all.

Plus, I had a chap show up Saturday, and with the tree sap, bird droppings, rain, slug trails you think I could have just turned one on and run with track power?

You should see the amazement on some folks faces...even those with stainless track, who tell me it is NOT maintenance free.
All that stuff I mentioned has nothing to do with corrosion, but everything to do with contact.

I also have seen the damage pole sanders do......edges of bridges knocked off, telephone poles broken off, buildings knocked askew...

I really can only think of one track-powered railroad left in the area, may be more, but the only one I can think of.

TOC

[Curmudgeon]

Bud, why didn't you say you were using Arc Welders?
Yes, that will do it, if hooked in parallel....as long as you reverse both at exactly the same time....
Seen the damage 15 amps will do inside a loco when it derails at that amperage.
Not Interested, thankyouverymuch.
30 amps. On one 110v breaker.
How often do you have to put new bearings in your power meter?

TOC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: "Battery power offers the user the opportunity to run as many trains as they want to (depending on the R/C capabilities) on a single track at the same time."

Yes it can Tony.I think you are missing Bud's point.
I can also do this with DCC.
I find it strange that HJ hasn't pitched in with the joys of Zimo.
Maybe the TOC ,HJ tag team doesn't stretch that far [}:)]
Rene.
I think this one goes down on the not to be repeated poll list ! [:D]

[TonyWalsham]

Bud,
My statement.

"Battery power offers the user the opportunity to run as many trains as they want to (depending on the R/C capabilities) on a single track at the same time."

Is just a fact.

[BudSteinhoff]

TOC,
No districts, simply two 15 amp. 24 volt power supplies back to back feeding 2 tracks including 4% grades.
10 at a time is as much as I need to watch at one time.
7 years never had a power supply die or fried any loco.
No new technology, just old fashion horse sense, not manure.
Works for me.
You run what you like and I will run what I like including my 37 Olds that does not have a flathead in it.
Bud[:D]

[John Busby]

Hi Rene
its a case of will be on a more perminent basis I have Lizzie built by Toenail Ridge..
A friend with a proper engineering shop and I are looking a the Jardee Mill loco
as a possabilaty once we are sure it will cope with LGB R1 bends.
that will be built in the fashion of a 16mm lovo all metal construction with full on board controles.
regards John

[grandpopswalt]

Gentlemen,

Enough already. This dicussion isn't about grave and world changing events. We're talking about toy trains here, albeit, sophisticated, expensive toys, but toys none-the-less. Lighten up.

Walt

[Curmudgeon]

Horse manure.
How many power districts, how much current?
With on-board power, you have the power you need for that loco.
Running 20 trains up 4% grades, the cost of power supplies and blocking would be non-economical.
Plus, if something dies (like one of those power district supplies), the railraod is dead.
With battery, if a system or battery quits, ONE LOCO is down.

So, Bud, you have some totally new technology available that doesn't care how much load you put on it?
Care to share how that works?

TOC

[BudSteinhoff]

Tony,
Why do you state this??

"Battery power offers the user the opportunity to run as many trains as they want to (depending on the R/C capabilities) on a single track at the same time."

I run track power with on-board receivers and can run as many trains as I want on a single track.

So does track power.
Minus one advantage.
Bud[:D]

[TonyWalsham]

Far be it from me to dictate how LS'ers wi***o power their RR's.

However, what I can tell you is, that over the years I regularly get asked to do conversions for battery powered R/C with some wanting to use a constant track power for the R/C. Some even wanted to charge the bateries from the track power.

Invariably those that wanted a battery/constant track power version either only ever use the battery power and ask me to eliminate the track pick up equipment and run straight battery, or re-convert the locos to just battery power.

Now why do they do that?
Usually it is because they still get sick of needing to bond EVERY rail joint and/or having to constantly clean the track.

Battery power to me is not just eliminating track cleaning. Although that is a valid enough reason on its own to embrace this method of power and control.
Battery power offers the user the opportunity to run as many trains as they want to (depending on the R/C capabilities) on a single track at the same time.

Having been involved with battery R/C for 20 years of course I have a vested interest in promoting battery R/C for LS trains.
I was among the first to do it. Certainly the first of those manufacturers still doing it.
I have seen quite a number of "Johnny Come Latelys" follow me to satisfy an ever increasing market.
If battery R/C is such a no no then why is that so?
Mother Nature is the reason.
When embraced from the get go, Battery R/C is the simplest and ultimately the lowest cost way of overcoming the effects of weathering.

If very long run times are a requirement there are quite simple ways of plugging in extra batteries in a trail car no matter what brand of R/C is chosen. Plus, modern batteries can be rapid charged in a couple of hours, not days like some would have you believe.

[Anonymous]

Barbara, You will get all sorts of grunge on the track, I have a bird friendly garden and to be honest not one has cr**ped on the track yet. Ian in oz runs an LGB track cleaning loco, which I think is probably the ultimate in track cleaning and something to consider if you will have some inaccessable places after the undergrowth grows back. If not, cleaning is not that big a thing at the end of the day, we do it with houses, pots etc, why not track.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[cabbage]

I only use battery power (with the exception of the suicidal Mamod!!!) This is because my source of batteries is plentiful and cheap. They are high capacity and heavy and are designed for high power drain. In short -they are UPS batteries.

I design my locos to take them -the only mistake I have made with them was the first one to be built -that takes 36 hours to recharge -yes it uses NiMH technology. The rest use Lead Acid.

However with the arrival of Sodium Sulphur Batteries at a price range I can afford I am beginning to experiment with them. The charge characteristics are DIRE!!! the discharge characteristics are WONDERFUL!!! They are lighter than SLA and there packing power is far higher -a 4.2AH 6V SLA weighs 2.4Kg and takes 90minutes to charge. A 8.6Ah 8.3V SS weighs 0.5Kg and could take full charge in 5 minutes -but at the end of it the *** thing is far too hot to hold and has to cool down for at least an hour!!!

However it STAYS charged -the 'tail off' is negligable. I have a couple of SS on test (borrowed) and the charger would have to be specially made -plus the fact that they are an 'odd' shape -a multiple of inches rather than centimetres...

I am happy with my batteries and would never go to track power -the rain and mud would see to that. I also like the fact that my small son, nieces and nephews plonk a train on the track and pu***he switch forward to go forward and back to go back.

N.B. some of my operators are still mastering the Alphabet...

regards

ralph

[Curmudgeon]

Kevin- I have no intention of winning him over to anything.
All this is doing is "filling in the gaps".
If he wants to come here and tell everyone he runs for days at a time, yet on another site he complains about killing 12-15 LGB locos in a year, the inability to keep trains on the track (even with track secured and cross-levelled), and then that the railroad hasn't run in 18 months.

On the SubNets we have a term we have developed for referring to PAST history......"On the Ustafish"....older Subs being named for fish....


So, maybe, on the "Ustarailroad" we ran all day and never had any problems.

Just tell it all.

TOC

[Rastun]

Good morning All,

I would really have to say about the choice of track power or battery is all a personal opinion. Do you want to spend part of your time cleaning your track? or almost no time at all? Some things that get onto the track are always going to have to be cleaned off no matter what you use.[:0]
For me it is the probably going to come down to the simple fact, "is it worth it to me to pay X amount of dollars to not have to clean track for electrical reasons? Or should I use that money on other things and go out into the garden with the morning cup of coffee and clean the track a bit as I look over the garden and greet the day?"
That being said I am leaning toward my layout being track powered with on board remotes for control and placing switches into some of the engines so they can operate on either.

Have a good day everyone [:D]
Jack

[BudSteinhoff]

To add to my choice of not running battery power and to eliminate charging/battery malfunctions I even eliminated all my sound system batteries and run them from track power.
Until I have any problems I will stay with the combination I have and what works best for me.
Bud[8D]

[Pagardener]

Question for those with track power?????[?]
My layout runs through my woods which means birds and [:(!]tree sap. Is it really that easy to clean off bird droppings and tree sap??[?] Since I am still building I use track power for testing but have been considering battery power for my engines because of the track cleaning hassle. Just wondering[?]
Barbara

[Anonymous]

Got into the garden at 9.30 this morning, train running at 9.31, walked round with it for a track inspection and it's still running now even though I can't see it from the PC. Had a night run last night and will be having one tonight after it's run all day. If only the batteries in the TE control last out................

Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[kstrong]

TWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Time Out, folks!

TOC, Bobgrosh, back to your corners. Neither of you will win the other over. You've answered the poll question, and stated your case for your chosen method of propulsion in the garden. Let's leave it at that and let the readers decide for themselves what works for their individual situations.

There's not a power system in existance that you can't find fault with. We just have to weigh the good against the bad, and decide which attributes we find acceptable vs. the ones we don't like.

It's a personal choice, but let's try to keep the discussion from getting too personal.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

Weeeeeellll.
I'm 40 years old.I have track power.
I also have a life!!!!
You win.
If I reach the age when I want to argue the toss,everything would have changed.You would be dead and I may not be interested any more!
Let's leave it there!
For me,track power works.Enough said.

[Curmudgeon]

Really.
We have had running, at one time, 20 working wayfreights with a passenger run or two interspersed, on 4% ruling.
Want to calculate the current requirements and blocking required to do so?
Plus (big plus) we can run on the same railroad, at the same time, with non-insulated steamers, even those who spew stuff all over the rails...

I had a dcc advocate tell me on the phone he had calculated an A-B-B-A with 15 streamline cars on 2% grade......and stated there wasn't a dcc power supply available that would provide enough power, PLUS you'd have to block the railroad out into "power districts" so heavily you might as well have a blocked railroad.

I've been through this argument before.

Those who still use track power haven't a clue. And that's not a put-down.
Those of us who HAVE, sometimes for more than 40 years, and have lots of experience with it, and now have battery r/c, can speak from both sides.

If you've never tried it (and making up surplus batteries with home-made chargers that blow up really don't count), can't address it.
You can try, but you really have nothing to say.

Lie you tell me about your new SUV, and my reference is my Flathead.

TOC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: I have all the power I need and can run as many lights, smoke, sound as I want for as long as I want.
Track cleaning is no big deal it only takes me about 15 miniutes for the 1200 ft of track with my cleaning rig which is really fun to sit back and let the loco do its work.
To each his own for their situation.
Bud

I hear you !
Use what you want to use.
After the initial clean,they run all day.