Getting Ready

[mtm1site]

Thanks Jack,Kimbrit and vbesitco sounds like i,ve got my plan. As I said on the first topic today I,am going to start laying track next week. I have been digging a 2ft.deep trench for about 50ft. around a stand of bamboo thats encoaching on the backyard. I now have to line it with heavy plastic and backfill. Getting older so it took me a while and have been laying on the den floor to straighten my back out. TOM

[tangerine-jack]

Hey, Bob, your method is not much different from what I use. Removing the sod here makes a trench about 4" deep, and I also use a little weed mat now and then. As I said before, it's the drainage we need here, plus a firm base.

Tom, you can trim with brick, or anything else to embellish your track! I was too lazy to do any such thing, but in retrospect it would probably have been a good idea. It's a little more work, but the results are worth it. Make sure your bricks or trim blocks are at least 2" above the grass line, if you don't have them raised, the grass will overgrow the trim in a short time (maybe a week or two) and you will have constant trimming nightmares. With a slightly elevated trim, you can weed whack with impunity.

Kim, I love your idea so much I might retro-work some of my track and install decorative trim. Maybe try some crushed granite base with grit on the top. You're costing me money, Kim!!!


[oX)]

[van buren s l]

Tom
If I Iived in your area I would stick with Tangerine Jack's method. I live on the Piedmont in Maryland where the winters are colder than yours in the Hampton Roads area and I have had success with a method that I picked up from a web site belonging to a gentleman named William Metcalf. It involves scalping the sod, laying weed block and then laying chips on the weed block. No trench is needed. The chips are !/2" , not quite in scale but they can be topped off with grit. Every spring a little leveling and topping off is needed, but beside a bit of weeding, it is a fairly hassle free method.
Bob

[Anonymous]

Thanks Tom, I'm also going to put a row of flags on the side of the bricks so I can walk down the track in winter without sinking into the lawn, as T Jack says - soupy jello - well not quite, but I know where he's going with that one! The flags will also help to keep flying grass off the track when I'm strimming the grass. Whichever way you go Tom you'll fine tune it to suit your empire.
Cheers,
Kim
{tup}

[mtm1site]

Kimbrit, your R.R. really looks nice and the way you explained putting down the rails seems pretty straight forward and neat looking. The bricks on the side of the trench looks like it keeps groundcover some distance from the ballast also,so it seems to me that if I did the same but kept the bricks even with the ground and covered them with "chicken grit" maintaining the rails would be easier. It may be a good combination to try along with Jacks method. Gives me cause to think about it as I have a free source of bricks. TOM

[tangerine-jack]

In this area, we have a very interesting problem. When it rains, the first 3-4" of soil turns into a soupy jello. Whatever is put on the bare ground, ie flagstones, track, bricks, etc. will sink into the ground after a week or so. You MUST remove the top layer of soil to get to a solid base. Also, everything grows here, that is to say, if the sod is not removed, whatever is put on top (gravel, track, crushed granite etc.) will sprout grass or weeds within a week and be all but impossible to remove. I am not kidding about this, I've learned the hard way.

Every one has made great suggestions on track laying, but I say again, what works in one place may be a disaster in another, I have learned this from experience. SE Virginia, aka Hampton Roads, aka Tidewater, is my back yard, I know the soil, I know the weather. I know what survived Hurricane Gloria in '86 and Isabel in '03, and more importantly I know what was never seen again after the winter storms of '98. If you are laying track on anything other than bare ground (something like what Capt Bob uses), any of the methods mentioned here will work since you will be controling the soil, but for a ground level layout, such as mine, not to dig and ballast would be a mistake.

Ok, I've said enough about this I think, Tom will be coming by to see my set up soon, and that will give him information to make an educated decision. All I know is what works for me.


[oX)]

[Anonymous]

Now then you talking about ballast you have hit a subject i am really interested in, Quarry fines, Quarry dust or crusher fines or whatever you want to call them are easily the best type of ballast for G scale.

I have read all you have had to say about laying track and I cannot understand why you are going to all that trouble. Jumper wires why? digging down why? sounds like a lot of hard work for nothing to me.

i would tell you that i have now more than 600 feet of track down, most of it for several years and in all sorts of situations, elevated, next to a pool goiung through small trees even over a 16 foot viaduct and I don't do any of that.

Rgds ian

[Anonymous]

Hi Tom,
In the UK hardcore is broken brick, bits of concrete etc. I used that to save money on the gravel and help with the drainage. After I cut out the grass sods I was left with a shallow trench about 2" to 3" inches deep, I bordered the trench with bricks set about 1" above the grass level and I threw in the hard core and then levelled it with gravel to the height of the bricks. My track is now above the level of flooding and is easy to level etc.
The grass is a bit long here, the top of the bricks is about 1" above lawn level.

This is gravel laid between flags, same principle but this track has been fully ballasted now

Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[mtm1site]

I plan on doing that. Re: My E-mail. TOM

[tangerine-jack]

Here is a great idea, Tom. Stop by my house one day soon and see what I've done. Poke it with a stick, pour some water on it, run a train around, and decide if this is what you want to do. It is a big decision, and I'm sure you want to make the best one based on all options available. Come on by and try it out! If you don't like what you see, or don't have a warm fuzzy, then we can explore other methods.[swg]

[oX)]

[mtm1site]

I,am going to use the same method you are using to put the track down Jack. But its always interesting to hear other opinions and who knows, the novice that I am,I might just find a good combination that will enhance my progress in this new hobby. TOM

[tangerine-jack]

My personal vote, from me alone and my own opinion and not to downgrade or minimize any other methods from anybody, is to go with the suggestion of the person that lives 40 miles from you with the same soil and weather conditions. You will have to do maintenance of some kind anyway, but trust me, wood will rot away with mold and warp (pressure treated or not), insects will eat it, concrete will crack, and I haven't tried the gravel, but it will probably work the same as the grit. I adjust my track maybe once a year and it stays in place just fine.

The final choice is yours, of course. I am just stating what's on my mind.[X-)]


[oX)]

[mtm1site]

By hardcore Kimbrit do you mean "concrete"? Its getting very confusing here in virginia. I feel that if I attach the track to either wood or concrete it will still warp and twist according to the weather and I,ll have to repair anyway. It comes down to wether I need to repair a lot or just a small amount. Here in Virginia we don,t have much extreme weather changes and if we do its a gradual event .So what do I do? I still like digging, filling and leveling and hoping there is a min. amount of repairs. What say you,al?

[Anonymous]

My line is on gravel. I dug out, put some hardcore in then raised the level with pea gravel to above the garden level, we have a very high water table. I ballast the track with granite chips and have very little maintenance to do except for re doing the ballast after the birds have done with it.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[Curmudgeon]

There's always Hans.......

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

If you'd just pay attention and listen up, Cozad, you'd agree with me all the time!

TOC, [;)][}:)][:D][:D]

Yeah right! So would everyone and you'd run out of people to argue with![:p][:p][:p][:D][:D][:D]

[Curmudgeon]

If you'd just pay attention and listen up, Cozad, you'd agree with me all the time!

[Marty Cozad]

I can't believe it, but i agree with ol TOC. good solid roadbed is key.
Drainage in NE is important and so is posiable frost problems. I can't do a trench method because the water goes in under the track , soaks the ground then freezes and lifts.
Wood , concrete or steel is strongest. But that can come later.

[Curmudgeon]

I have tried many types of roadbed over thge past decade+.
The most time-consuming as far as maintenance is free-floating in a bed like that.
The track never stays put, expansion and contraction of the railroad shifts it all over, and the outer edges of the curves drop, derailments, etc.
I started using Pressure Treated, now at TREX, once we started doing a solid base, no more problems.
Even if the roadbed settles, even locals who have gone to it get moles (or gophers), nothing upsets the track.
TOC

[tangerine-jack]

That's one of the things about an outdoor RR, sooner or later Mother Nature will have her way with it and you will be doing repairs. All we can do is choose a building method which minimizes damage potential.

I believe that in the Tidewater, VA area, because of our tricky weather, proximity to the ocean and bay, dead flat topography, and other factors, that floating ballast method is ideal. I've been in this area 25 years and NEVER, not once, seen anything remotely similiar to a frost heave, or seen a pond do anything more than lightly skin over with ice in the winter (which last from part of December to February) We do stay 3H in the summer (Hazy, Hot and Humid), so drainage and mold are the issues we work with.

Just my [2c]


[oX)]

[mtm1site]

Thanks markn. I didn,t think it was very deep but its still deep enought to cause problems like curmudgeon described.(if we have a severe winter). All I can do if that happens is repair the wires. I still don,t want to secure the track to concrete or boards. I like the idea of floating them on the ballast like the railroads do, so they can expand and contract. TOM

[markn]

Tom-just for info the frost line is 6 inches in Hampton Roads.

[mtm1site]

Thats why I settled on the method Jack uses Cumudgeon. I am fortunate to have other people in the area with garden railroads that have basically solved the problems already ,although at times I feel we have the same problems you have(rain). Its raining today and seems to rain about every three days around here. I appreciate the input, and will heed your warning. The frost line around here is not very deep so I think I am ok. Thanks,I need all the help I can get and also thanks to Tangerine Jack. I,ll try to have some pictures of the track laying as it goes(I hope). TOM

[tangerine-jack]

Hey Tom! You can get the grit from Southern States. I see you live in NN- you are about 40 miles from me, email me and we can swap phone #s.

Capt Bob is right on the money with the wire. I got mine in a 500ft roll from Home Depot for about $10. I use a little dab of grease on the connections-it has worked for me for a number of years without problems.

We don't have a freezing problem in this area, drainage is what we need to look at. The chicken grit bed works better than anything else I've tried so far. The water drains easily, grass cannot root in and is easy to pull out, and the rails can expand and contract without distorting. It just goes to show how different every garden RR is, each area has it's own problems and solutions, what works in one place may be a disaster somewhere else.


[oX)]

[Curmudgeon]

This could get interesting.
How deep do you freeze in winter?
Realizing Seattle is fairly mild, one of the locals had an issue one year.
He did that, on the ground, trenched, crusher fines, wires in the ballast.
So, it rains (never does that in Seattle, right?). That night, it froze.
That locked the wet ballast nicely.
Then, it really froze.
All that wet crusher fines in a trench....heaved.
Guess where the wires were?
Frozen in the fines.
Ripped every wire off track and switch machines.

TOC

[mtm1site]

Thanks for the info guys. I,am going to Lowes today. TOM

[Capt Bob Johnson]

You can get excellent multi stranded feeder wire by going to Lowes, Home Depot, or the equivilent and getting the low voltage outdoor lighting wire. The idea is that for this use, utilizing DC power, the more strands per given wire size, the better! 50 strand 14ga. would be better than 20 strand 14 ga., and 20 strand would be infinately better than single strand!

You are playing with low voltage stuff here!

[whiterab]

Tom,

You don't have to seal the points where the wire connects to the tracks but I would use the electric paste that LGB sells for connecting joiners.

The best source for wire is go to a garden store and get the largest guage wire you can find for garden lighting systems. It is designed to be buried and is excellant for a low voltage application.

For the chicken grit, go to any feed store and they will know what you are talking about. Go for grower size (number 2 in some brands). Do check to make sure the chicken grit is granite. Some companies sell chicken grit made from oyster shells - not good.

[mtm1site]

Well I,am getting ready to lay track and have read most of the different ways to put down the rails. I kind of like the way Tangerine Jack does it. After seeing his pictures it seems a simple way to do it. Lay the track down ,temp.,paint spots next to them then dig a few inches down ,fill with crusher fines and lay tracks. Also I intend to lay jumper wires inside the trench. There is a question that I have for jack if you read this or anyone else that can answer. Do you seal (waterproof) the points where the wire comes up to connect to the track? If you do how do you accomplish it and also do you use regular UF wire and what size do you use. Also being a newcomer to garden rails I appriciate the picture of the bag of "chicken grit". I didn,t have a clue what It looked like or who made it so I magnified the picture found the Company that made it and located a supplier in Gloucester Va. This is as close as I have been able to locate it. TOM