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Locomotive price points

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Locomotive price points
Posted by Rene Schweitzer on Friday, January 21, 2005 3:30 PM
I admit I "borrowed" this poll from Classic Toy Trains magazine, but it also seems appropriate now for this forum (see Diesel bias in the photo contest thread).

I am also taking ideas for future polls. After 2 years, the well is starting to come up a bit dry! Just email me your suggestions.

Rene

Rene Schweitzer

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 21, 2005 3:51 PM
Rene
I watch for sales in the garden rail ways magazine, or at train shows. local dealers to high with their prices. BEN
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Posted by devils on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:08 AM
I think the low end provides a good starter for new entrants and a good basis for detailing for those on a tight budget. I started with a bachmann 2.4.2 ten years ago and it still provides friends kids with an engine they can run without any worries. I've also got two of the 2.6.0's that are basically the same loco with a new chassis and finer detail. More like this would be excellent[^]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:03 AM
Hi Rene,
I voted mid range but all manufacturers should be doing entry level as well as a matter of course. It gets a bit dearer in the UK where it usually goes from dollar to pound on a one to one basis. My recent purchase of an Aristo C16 was £162-00 delivered, in my local shop at the weekend and the same loco was on the shelf for £280-00, in the states around $186 looking at another topic on this loco.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:14 AM
I picked the mid range price because that is where I started and basically kept fairly true to that with all my loco purchases. All USA Trains locos except for the Challenger.
Grant
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Posted by bman36 on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:04 AM
Hey there,
I too picked mid range. That is what suits my budget right now. May look at higher end when the kids are finished school though! That's a few years away so for now I am quite content with running what I have. Later eh...Brian.
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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:38 AM
I voted $150-300 range as that is the range most can afford and where the greatest market potential lies. If it costs $500 to get any engine this will never be more than a rich persons hobby. Its good business sense to me to focus on providing more engines at a price range the most people can afford. Their are already quite a few diesels in this range but only a few locomotives. Its gotten a lot better, a Bachmann Spectrum Mogul can be got now for >$300. To me the current trend on providing bigger and more expensive engines while lessening focus the lower end level market will be bad in the long run for the hobby as it will continue to send the message that this is a BMW hobby, Bring Money Withyou.

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Posted by powlee on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:54 AM
I went for the mid-range. In the UK, we would not get a decent sized loco for under $300.
In the States, a different matter.
Ian P

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Posted by kstrong on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:08 AM
Are we talking list price or street price? For the hobby to thrive, there has to be a lion's share of desirable products in a price range that are well within reach of the average hobbyist. In most cases, that price point seems to be right around $300.00 on the street. MSRP can be whatever they want it to be, but the street price needs to be within reach.

In flipping through the GR ads, I think we're kinda there right now. Most diesels can be had for well under that bar, and there are a fair number of steam locos under it as well, or just over it. That's a pattern typical of any scale--steam locos cost about twice what diesel locos do. I don't think we can expect to change that.

I do think we need to push for more affordible "popular" locos like a K-27 or something along those lines. Most modelers right now "make do" with what's being offered to them in their price range. They can't afford $2,000 for the C-16 they'd really like, so they spend $350 for a Bachmann 2-6-0 instead. They can't afford $3,000 for a K-27, so they spend $400 for a Bachmann 2-8-0. They want models of these higher priced locos, but can't afford them, so they have to settle for what they can. I think ultimately that will lead to a lot of frustrated modelers. Look at the reaction Bachmann got when they announced their Vulcan. Everyone was hoping for something along the lines of a C-19 or similar "popular" locomotive, and when they were handed an obscure prototype instead, the outrage was overwhelming. The chorus of "For GOD'S SAKE, build what we WANT to buy!" could be heard in every time zone.

The average modeler is tired of settling for table scraps while the elite dine on filet mignon. It takes no more R&D and tooling expense to produce a limited run die-cast model than it does to produce a plastic one. I think the manufacturers have already gotten a sense that we're not terribly keen on them producing $3,000 limited editions of models that we want but can't afford, but still seem disinclined to do a darned thing about it. Marie Antionette tried that once. If Bachmann can bring the 2-8-0 out with that much detail for a $400 street price, there's absolutely no reason in the world why USA Trains can't bring out their 0-6-0 switcher for a similar amount. And they'd sell--they'd sell like hotcakes.

Unfortunately, short of lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks, there's not much we can do about it. We can't really "vote" with our wallets. We can't afford the high-priced models to begin with, so boycotting them would be rather ineffective. Not buying their "affordible" offerings would deprive us of our ability to enjoy the hobby with at least the scraps we're being fed. When you're starving, any part of the pig tastes good.

Perhaps the only thing we can do is be very vocal. It worked in Bachmann's case. They shelved the Vulcan, and went ahead with the "next" item on their schedule. I'd love to hear any of the manufacturers defend their "limited edition" offerings--especially with regard to the time and money spent bringing those items to market being diverted from bringing items to market that the average modeler can afford. You don't see Chevy halting production of the Malibu to bring out the latest Corvette. I just don't get it.

Later,

K



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Posted by bman36 on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:09 PM
Kevin,
My assumption was street price. Never look at list. To me list could be whatever...what will it cost ME? I feel you are very much right in that what we actually buy will help dictate what is made and how much. At least I hope so! Later eh...Brian.
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Posted by vsmith on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:24 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by kstrong

Are we talking list price or street price? For the hobby to thrive, there has to be a lion's share of desirable products in a price range that are well within reach of the average hobbyist. In most cases, that price point seems to be right around $300.00 on the street. MSRP can be whatever they want it to be, but the street price needs to be within reach.

In flipping through the GR ads, I think we're kinda there right now. Most diesels can be had for well under that bar, and there are a fair number of steam locos under it as well, or just over it. That's a pattern typical of any scale--steam locos cost about twice what diesel locos do. I don't think we can expect to change that.

I do think we need to push for more affordible "popular" locos like a K-27 or something along those lines. Most modelers right now "make do" with what's being offered to them in their price range. They can't afford $2,000 for the C-16 they'd really like, so they spend $350 for a Bachmann 2-6-0 instead. They can't afford $3,000 for a K-27, so they spend $400 for a Bachmann 2-8-0. They want models of these higher priced locos, but can't afford them, so they have to settle for what they can. I think ultimately that will lead to a lot of frustrated modelers. Look at the reaction Bachmann got when they announced their Vulcan. Everyone was hoping for something along the lines of a C-19 or similar "popular" locomotive, and when they were handed an obscure prototype instead, the outrage was overwhelming. The chorus of "For GOD'S SAKE, build what we WANT to buy!" could be heard in every time zone.

The average modeler is tired of settling for table scraps while the elite dine on filet mignon. It takes no more R&D and tooling expense to produce a limited run die-cast model than it does to produce a plastic one. I think the manufacturers have already gotten a sense that we're not terribly keen on them producing $3,000 limited editions of models that we want but can't afford, but still seem disinclined to do a darned thing about it. Marie Antionette tried that once. If Bachmann can bring the 2-8-0 out with that much detail for a $400 street price, there's absolutely no reason in the world why USA Trains can't bring out their 0-6-0 switcher for a similar amount. And they'd sell--they'd sell like hotcakes.

Unfortunately, short of lighting torches and sharpening pitchforks, there's not much we can do about it. We can't really "vote" with our wallets. We can't afford the high-priced models to begin with, so boycotting them would be rather ineffective. Not buying their "affordible" offerings would deprive us of our ability to enjoy the hobby with at least the scraps we're being fed. When you're starving, any part of the pig tastes good.

Perhaps the only thing we can do is be very vocal. It worked in Bachmann's case. They shelved the Vulcan, and went ahead with the "next" item on their schedule. I'd love to hear any of the manufacturers defend their "limited edition" offerings--especially with regard to the time and money spent bringing those items to market being diverted from bringing items to market that the average modeler can afford. You don't see Chevy halting production of the Malibu to bring out the latest Corvette. I just don't get it.

Later,

K






[#ditto][#ditto][#ditto]
the trouble is that they DO sell those $2K diecast Hudsons and $3K K-27's!

Enough people shell out enough Gold to justify the continued making of all these expensive items. they must be real profit cash cows because thiers NO sign of any waning of new items...We get now a Diecast GG1 at $2K and a Big Boy at $2K and they will sell!

B'mann's backing away from the Spockmiester was a sign that they do listen, it just seems like the disconnect between what the companies think they can sell -vs- what the public actually wants...I'm convinced that Spockmeister was being done because Bmann could use the same drive trucks from the Hiesler and Shay, but they could do a Class A Climax just as easily and that would have been a HUGE hit, but somewhere along the way, the thought process gets fouled up and we got the Spockster.[xx(]

Although I wonder how many MTH Big Boys at $600 will be sold compared to the USAT $2K Big Boy.

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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 6:40 PM
I had 3 bachmann big hallers, nothing but problems with them,bachman had the one for 6 months , it came back , still would not run steady, I will buy their rolling stock , BUT no more of their engines, aristo craft and usa i will buy I WATCH for sales in the GRR MAGIZINE , for both engines and rolling stock. . Ben
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Posted by grandpopswalt on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:20 PM
Hi Ben,

I think (and hope) that there is a big difference between the Big Hauler line and the new Spectrum line. I see a vast improvement in the drive train of the new "Indy" Mogul (which, I think, is not a Spectrum product) and that found in the Big Hauler 4-6-0's.

Hopefully TOC will read this thread and make a few comments.

Walt
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Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:47 PM
WALT
how are you doing with your engine project??? the thing i sent you ,was the 6 month one. ben
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Posted by grandpopswalt on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:53 AM
Ben,

Still busy bashing the Indy. Hope to have something running in a week or so.

It's a fairly involved process. First the cab from a Big Hauler is cut down to accomodate the Indy. Then the tender from the Big Hauler has to be cut down both length and width, I'm also replacing the plastic grabirons with steel wire. Then the batteries and Train Engineer radio are installed in the tender. All the wiring in the engine has to be redone and the sound system from the Indy gets swapped into the new tender. I'm also designing some elctronics to make battery charging automatic. And half the time I'm waiting around for paint or plastic putty to dry.

Walt
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Posted by hobbyfossi201 on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:59 AM
Hi,
I voted Mid-Range, though every supplier should also have entry and low-level priced locos in his product-portfolio to get started on a small budget, too.
best regards
klaus
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Posted by Rene Schweitzer on Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:46 PM
Kevin,

To answer your question, yes, I meant street price, what you, the consumer, pays. Train manufacturer pricing can be a lot like movie/music prices. The list is usually much higher than what you actually pay--and that's what matters.

Rene Schweitzer

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:58 PM
Walt,

For all that trouble you probably could have scratchbuilt the cab easier.

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Posted by grandpopswalt on Thursday, January 27, 2005 1:37 PM
Vic,

You're probably right. But I'm using the steel cab and scratching the roof contours and detail would be a little difficult, hench the "saw and glue" routine.

Regarding the train crash. I'm a little confused. Did the driver slash himself in addition to driving onto the track or had he cut himself previously in an attempt at suicide?

Walt
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Posted by Curmudgeon on Thursday, January 27, 2005 2:55 PM
I voted mid-range, as if I ever decided to buy another locomotive that would be my price point.
As it is now, I am storing locos as I don't have room anymore.

Ben, the 4-6-0 is entry-level. Even the Aniversary, as indicated by it's inclusion in sets this past Christmas season.
For serious modellers, I wouldn't use one unless you did something major to it.
I have four 4-6-0's on shed at the CCRy, 3 are now 2-8-0's, one a 4-6-0, all BBT chassis.
None are left with original drive, including the Anniversary.

Kevin, yer right about the bigger stuff....like a K or an EBT Mike.
Somehow we need to not continue encouraging expensive brass stuff.
Especially when a lot of it needs re-work to even operate, like gauge (evey one of a particular loco I had through the shop had trailing truck about .100" too narrow), motors, u-joints.
I recall one where the handrails on to of the doghouse were butt-soldered, not drilled first then soldered.
Nice museum pieces, but not something you would want to run.
Driver axle journal springs too stiff to allow the chassis to "work", lead trucks with parts mounted upside-down, lead truck wheels with not enough flange to stay on the track.
Tender pickups that are, well, junk. Tender frame piping that shorts out the trucks.
Voltage regulator boards for the numerous loco lights that overheat and go into thermal shutdown in 15-30 seconds.
Locos that are not made to go around our curves, even for testing, as they have to be "right", yet they leave flanges off.
How much more do you want me to say?
TOC
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:54 PM
I'd like to see a cooke 2-6-0 mogul come out, it would save me from doing the Annie bash, there were several done over on MLS so there is definately an intrest.

Bachmann are you listening? You still got time until I buy a 4-6-0 and it meets the razor saw!
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Posted by grandpopswalt on Friday, January 28, 2005 3:28 AM
TOC,

Can the B"mann Annie connecting and side rods as well as the wheel axel bearings be expected to work reliably for a long time? I've replaced the drive train in the Big Hauler with a gearmotor, right angle reducer and sprocket and chain to the rear axel. This arrangement has worked out very well. Now I'm considering doing it to an Annie, is it worth the effort and the $150 for the engine?

Walt
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Posted by Curmudgeon on Friday, January 28, 2005 12:39 PM
Axle bearings are fine, in fact, probably over-built.
Siderods are fine, too, and segmented, crankpins are good.
Big problem is the Celcon Bushings in the wheels.
You cannot get them to fit the axle tightly.
I suspect they are this way on purpose to compensate for manufacturing lack of tolerances, such that quartering is an issue and matching quartering on all 3 axles is out of the realm of possibility.
You lock them down, you'd best be dang sure they are all exact.
I have found BBT drives will solve all the problems, and with metal chassis and ball bearings you can add 6-8 pounds easy (which I do) and it WILL pull.
TOC
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Posted by TheJoat on Friday, January 28, 2005 6:40 PM
Bachmann has the right price point. Now, if we could only convince them to sell the right locomotives. Sure, I have a few of them, but given a choice between their idea of a consolidation and a C-16 or C-19....
Bruce

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