Diesel bias In the photo contest???

[bman36]

Hey everyone,
Just received my issue of GR a few days ago. In the letters column was a letter sent in with the same title as this post. After reading it I was left with a rather bad feeling inside. The writer refers to Marty Kozads photo as a scene that is "ho hum". He also refers to his BN diesels being "out of the box." Having seen Marty's RR first hand I can honestly say the writer is dead wrong here. Living on the prairies has taught me to appreciate the landscape we have as being georgeous despite the fact that it is flat. I can also assure you that Marty weathers everything he runs. At least everything I saw was. I for one loved the photo Marty took. To me it represents a very natural feel of what we do as modellers in the great outdoors. Having seen his line I can also say it is anything but "ho hum". Just wondered if anyone else read this letter? Thoughts anyone? Later eh...Brian. [:D]

[grandpopswalt]

Hi Brian,

I think that letter represents not so much a criticism of Marty’s work or his railroad, but gives voice to a frustration a lot of us are feeling about the growth of diesel power in the hobby. The LS hobby in North America has historically been narrow gauge steam, starting with LGB. Live steam started to grow rapidly after GR magazine hit the stands. So to many of us garden railroading is generally represented by steam power and narrow gauge in particular.

Today there seems to be a growing trend toward modern power. Weather the trend is based on
Consumer preference or because the industry wants it to go that way is unclear. GR stated some time ago that it would devote considerably more space to standard gauge mainline railroads than in the past. Since GR plays a large role in the direction the hobby will take, it’s newfound enthusiasm for standard gauge is troubling. Therefore it does seem as though there might be some bias in selecting two diesel photos as the first two winners in the contest.

Given my bias toward steam, I’ll add my two cents regarding the quality of the contest photos. In Marty’s photo the foreground miniature “tree” looks like a bush and it’s obvious those are real trees in the background. Otherwise it’s a nice picture of a train moving down the track, not very interesting. The third place winner, the steam scene, also has defects. The switch actuator stands out in the foreground and it too has real trees in the background. However, the scene is INTERESTING. There’s something going on, there’s a sense of reality.

So there you have it, there’s no accounting for taste.

Walt

[Marty Cozad]

Before this goes to far let me throw in that I wrote a nice e-mail to the person with other photos showing the MLS bridge 12 ft to the west and the Bangs Canyon bridge 8ft to the east. It just looks flat in that photo. Also that the 2nd unit is custom painted cause Aristo did not make any high hood 45s in the BN colors, and I said a few other things. I also told him how I felt for years the same way he does only about steam always gets the glory. A generaltional thing here, I grew up with SD40-2s and U-33- C so thats my childhood. Steam is only in tourist trains for me.
I thanked him and I know that you can't make everyone happy. I almost cropped out the higher tree line but I try NOT to touch up my photos even if there is things I to don't like. The mag did crop it width wise to fit the page and it did print out much darker.
But we all just need to keep sharing the hobby.
I've learned alot out of this.
Thanks

The issue that I always had with the contest was, finding the balance between realism and showing what we think best depicts garden railroading. Thats why i left the grass and the trees in the back ground was to show it is a GRR.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpopswalt

Hi Brian,

I think that letter represents not so much a criticism of Marty’s work or his railroad, but gives voice to a frustration a lot of us are feeling about the growth of diesel power in the hobby. The LS hobby in North America has historically been narrow gauge steam, starting with LGB. Live steam started to grow rapidly after GR magazine hit the stands. So to many of us garden railroading is generally represented by steam power and narrow gauge in particular.

Today there seems to be a growing trend toward modern power. Weather the trend is based on
Consumer preference or because the industry wants it to go that way is unclear. GR stated some time ago that it would devote considerably more space to standard gauge mainline railroads than in the past. Since GR plays a large role in the direction the hobby will take, it’s newfound enthusiasm for standard gauge is troubling. Therefore it does seem as though there might be some bias in selecting two diesel photos as the first two winners in the contest.

Given my bias toward steam, I’ll add my two cents regarding the quality of the contest photos. In Marty’s photo the foreground miniature “tree” looks like a bush and it’s obvious those are real trees in the background. Otherwise it’s a nice picture of a train moving down the track, not very interesting. The third place winner, the steam scene, also has defects. The switch actuator stands out in the foreground and it too has real trees in the background. However, the scene is INTERESTING. There’s something going on, there’s a sense of reality.

So there you have it, there’s no accounting for taste.

Walt

Not going to comment on the contest, they were all good to me. But as I said before on another post, its not so much that most people dont like steam, its just that every new steam engine coming out is $#$%@ expensive! USA's diecast Hudson is between $1.5k and $2k the Big Boy wil definetly be in the +$2k level. LGB venerable Mogul is still on average $800 , their Mike is $1.5k, Accucraft, Berlyn,are almost $3k for some engines. People tend to model what they can afford, a $300 Dash 8 thats big and impressive starts looking good when for the price of ONE USA Hudson , you can get FIVE Dash 8's. Is it any wonder where the diesel movement is coming from?

[bman36]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for your input. I was so glad to see that Marty was able to put how he felt in all of this. I have to agree with Vic. in that price plays a HUGE factor in what gets purchased in this hobby. Dare I say if all that was out there was high priced steam...well I doubt I would have a Garden RR. Thanks to Bachmann I CAN purchase my Narrow Gauge equipment. If all we had was Accucraft Shays...Ummmm...nope. I can understand the frustration when looking at the photos and considering this looked bias. BUT the theme was "What best depicts Garden RR'ing" Well...look again. It's a "Garden". This is just how I see it. Marty showed his RR as being the real thing...a Garden RR. This letter got me started because of all the people I have encountered in the past. I think most of us have heard the people who do nothing but whine about everything. I'm not at all saying that the writer is that kind of person. My point is WHY is this person upset??? Steam will always have a place in Garden RR'ing as long as we have steam enthusiasts. Might I add I am one of them. BUT if all we have is steam the hobby will not grow. At least not as fast. Does everyone drive a SUV? Seems like it these days. Does all the SUV's on the road mean cars are doomed? No. Not everyone can afford some of these SUV's nor do they want one. The same holds true with diesel power. If diesel is what brings new people into the hobby...great! My preference is still for steam...even after seeing Marty's RR. You have to admit seeing his long trains double headed with 9's is really cool. I really don't feel steam was biased against here. You are welcome to disagree with me here. No problem. As I have said in many posts before...relax...it's just a hobby. Keep having fun with it guys. The day I get all wound up over something I see happening in the hobby and can't cool down....then it's time to line my trains up on the lot at work and run my Mc Rig over them. Thanks for listening. Later eh...Brian.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bman36

Hey Guys,

... My point is WHY is this person upset??? ....

Later eh...Brian.

Simple...he didnt win![:D][;)]

[grandpopswalt]

I think this is all a right wing conspiracy to sell more products and make all those fat cat manufacturers even richer. Let’s face it, if you run diesel you’ll probably MU several units and want to pull long trains, 30 – 40 cars. That’s a lot of equipment! One train probably represents about $3000. And it won’t look right running on a small circle of track, so you’ve got to invest heavily in miles of track and switches …… where does it all stop.

I beg you, think carefully before you go down that slippery slope. Dieselization is the path to financial ruin.

Walt, the cheap old steam train guy

[Anonymous]

Next time I'll send in one of my tram photos.That should do well (not).
Who cares what people run.I like seeing photos of what everyone is up to!
Troy

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by grandpopswalt
I beg you, think carefully before you go down that slippery slope. Dieselization is the path to financial ruin.

In my case, I like small "local" railroad action. Steam makes more sense for the type of garden railway I like.

I think the bias is that with diesels you have some factors at play...

1) Realistic Stream is hard to photograph- The puffs and chuggs of real railroads don't seem to scale down. Additionally, its been a long time since such action was common place.

2) Lots of road names and more "Flash" on Diesels- The Paint schemes on the various diesels represent lots of fodder...with the fallen flag diesel issue, we have a even more nostalgia at play. Most, Americans anyway, grew up with diesels.

3) Diesels can pull more- People like to see long trains pulling almost endless hoppers or a good mix of rolling stock.

That's the way I see it...

[Anonymous]

Some bodys just jealous they don't have a nice lay out , i run what i can aford no more, no less, go for it marty. I have flowers and bushs in mine, when wheather permits, its a garden railroad, and i enjoy it .[|(] ben

[Anonymous]

I totally agree with Ben. I run what I can afford ( which right now is nothing ) lol
I look forward to being able to run my first train through the garden...any train...just a train actually running will be a great accomplishment for me.
And like was said before, " It's a hobby " and a darn good one at that!!

[Anonymous]

I agree with all of the above[:D] valid points all around. The question is which I do believe is outlined in the photo contest, Is it supposed to look real or like a Garden RR? Or is based on just a cool picture?

[van buren s l]

Marty won the contest because he is a good modeler and a good photographer. Furthermore, he has used photographs in his posts in this forum that are, in my opinion, even better than the contest photo. I don't have the energy of the desire to create a railway like Marty's, but it is fooli***o let prototypiclal preferences blind us to creativity, imagination, and skill. GO MARTY!
Bob

[Anonymous]

"Marty won the contest because he is a good modeler and a good photographer. "

Amen, and Marty has a steam pic over at MLS that is "to die for!"

[wa1lbk]

Regarding steam loco prices - Bachmann's 1:20.3 logging engines have street prices of typically $400 or less. These locomotives are a BARGAIN for the level of detail (equivalent to or BETTER than a lot of brass I've seen!) & running quality they offer. The current "Annie" 4-6-0 is only about $150, & a far cry from Bachmann's original battery /RC ten-wheeler. I used to model PRR in O scale (2-rail) brass years ago - a typical steam loco such as a K4 Pacific or I-1 Decapod (my roster was mostly US Hobbies / KTM brass for steam, Overland Models for brass diesels) ran me about $600, a brass diesel about $400. Plastic diesels such as Atlas F9's ran @ $50, Weaver Alco FA's @ $100. I also remember drooling [:p] over niceties such as a Westside Q2 4-4-6-4 (@ $1500) or a Sunnyside T-1 4-4-4-4 ($3000+!!! [xx(] ) - both WAY beyond my budget at the time [V] (not to mention that even the club layout I belonged to at the time didn't have curves wide enough to accomodate either one! [B)] I had also wanted to get a Shay, Climax, or Heisler in O scale, but again, it was typically $1500+ [:(] to get a brass one (and not all brass had good running qualities, either! [:(!] ).
Thanks to Bachmann's reasonable prices, I now own 1 Climax, 1 Heisler, & 3 Shays! [:D] - correction, make that 4 Shays if I include the Accucraft 3-cylinder live steamer I bought last summer! [:)] The Accucraft Shay was my first venture into a $1000+ locomotive, & not a step I took lightly; but at @ $1500, I can now say I own a REAL steam locomotive [8D] ! Someone in an earlier post on this thread mentioned "steam" not scaling down well for photos; watch one of these engines in action sometime! [:p] Let me also add that although I personally prefer steam power for the most part, I am not "rabidly" [}:)] anti-diesel - one of the Bachmann GE 45-ton siderod diesels in normal power for the milk train on my layout!
Regarding GR's "alleged" photo bias, I propose a simple solution - split the contest into separate steam & diesel categories, with equal awards for each winning level! [^] Tom

[Marty Cozad]

Thanks all for the kind words. As said above about what you can afford. If you knew how many times my wife has said, no,,don't,you don't "need" that etc. How many times i have went on a spending freeze. OH How I wish I could be happy with narrow gauge. But to be honest I don't look at myself as a modeler. i'm a production outdoor railroader. I'd rather build cliffs in 100 degree heat than sit in airconditoning for two months building a perfectly scaled and detail model as most of you craftsman do. We bought this property for our 4 boys and for me to build big so I don't have to worry about the little details. The WOOW factor blinds many to the lack of details.
The feel of open row power of the monster diesel era pulling their tonage over the crest of a hill. Speaking of steam , as Aristo and others build big bad steamers I will fall prey to that. Two mallets lashed together with sound units , lights a whistle will be outstanding.
I may have started in steam if they had the big engines first. In my HO days I had a n AHM big boy, couldn't pull anything, I had Tyco stuff. Many low priced items would have run me away with problems if I had not gotten hooked and found better.
The one good thing about this is, I used my older camera to take the photo, next year I will have learned to use our newer better one.
i'm affraid it will someday come down to how good of a camera do you have. Most cover shots or add photos need better pixels etc. Thats why I bought the better camera, to try for better quality shots of the scenes I try to model.
time will tell.
Some day i hope that Marc H. won't have to come take photos for me, but they (GRYSmag) will be able to use mine.

[Gary Crawley]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bennysrr

Some bodys just jealous they don't have a nice lay out , i run what i can aford no more, no less, go for it marty. I have flowers and bushs in mine, when wheather permits, its a garden railroad, and i enjoy it .[|(] ben

If you have unlimited time an money you could just about create anthing, but we don't.

Like most people on the forum we have families, houses, jobs etc. so we all do the best we can with what we have. My railway is narrow gauge steam thats what I like but also like modern but I don't have the room.

I try to plant small dwarf plants but theres no way I would pull out my roses and larger trees.

I admire guy,s like Marty and I beleive we all should encourage each other no matter if we have a layout or not.

To me ALL the photos in the GRM are fantastic and it just shows how much talent we have in our hobby.

Regards
Gary

[bman36]

Hey guys,
I like the idea of diesel and steam categories. I too only have so much time and money to work with. Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder...squint when you come to my place. Marty has taken some really neat photos. The one I like the most was one taken along side a moving BN loco. The shot appears to have been taken from a car on a road along side the train. Very innovative. As Gary pointed out we need to keep encouraging one another. Still having fun here. Later eh...Brian.

[grandpopswalt]

I’ve read the posts on this thread several times. A point that was brought up is that one of the elements of the contest is to show how the trains are integrated into the garden. That’s a point I didn’t consider. In that context Marty’s photo does a very good job of making the point that mainline diesel power can be used and looks good running in a garden setting. I’ve admired Marty’s work for a long time now. And frankly I’ve seen some of his photos on this forum that were far superior, in my opinion, to the one that won the contest.

I’ve also just discovered that if you attempt to use sarcasm as a platform for humor, you’d better be very skillful and you’d better understand your audience. The Dieselization of the hobby doesn’t really matter to me one way or the other. What matters is what I run in my garden and what makes me happy.

Having said all that, I still prefer to see photos of narrow gauge steam garden railroads over modern era ones, assuming that the subjects and photos are of equal quality.

Walt

[wa1lbk]

A follow up to my previous post- although primarily a steam fan, I can't help but be impressed by what some of the modern - era modelers are doing as well. [^] My current indoor layout is pretty strictly going to be narrow - gauge steam due to the limitation of having some R1 radius curves & steep (Cass - inspired 10%! [:O]) grades - the steep grades even get a Bachmann Shay down on it's hands & knees with only a 5-car (MAX!) train! [B)] My outoor layout, currently in very early stages of construction (& pretty much stalled at this point until Old Man Winter departs! [V] ), is being built with much broader curves & currently has a max grade of @ 3%; I may decide to get some standard gauge rolling stock (in particular, USA Trains Alco PA's in the NH McGinnis scheme look attractive!) [;)] , & run "either" narrow gauge "or" 50's vintage NH - prototype standard gauge at one given time or another (but NOT both simultaneously! [:-,] ). I had never previously modeled narrow gauge - all my layouts in smaller scales were Class 1 mainline railroading, although primarily steam. For the past several years I've worked in high tech, which moves at about the same pace as the French TGV! [wow] - Which suddenly makes modelling a sleepy, laid-back [|)] narrow -gauge line VERY attractive! [2c] Actually running a live steam Shay is a blast in it's own right [:P] - I did a demo with my Accucraft this past weekend at a local (mostly HO & N scale) show, just laid a loop of track on the floor & steamed the Shay around it (under radio control). When I was servicing the Accucraft between runs, one of my Bachmann engines (either the Climax or the Heisler, both equipped with DCC & Phoenix sound) "pinch - hit" for the Shay; & in both cases, I let kids at the show run either the live-steam Shay under RC (since it runs so slow, no problems with them running it off the track! [(-D] ), or blow the whistle via DCC on the Bachmann engines - reaction I got from visitors to the show was that this was a MAJOR -league hit! [8D] (The show organizer also thought so, & I am DEFINETLY invited back next year!). Before I get accused of "side-tracking" [#offtopic] things here - the point I'm trying to make is it's always interesting to see what some of the other guys are up to, even if it's not specifically my "thing". (I got a lot of comments to that effect from the smaller-scale modellers at the show, which surprised me - my display was a quick, crude, "spur-of-the-moment" affair, next to some of the superbly detailed modular layouts at the show). [:I] Let's show a little tolerance for what other's have done (& enjoy it in the process!) .[^] Tom

[bman36]

Walt,
I honestly believed you were serious. Brings me to another point. With "text" it can be so hard to see the emotion intended in a post. Yes we use those little faces to show our frustration etc., but now I'm laughing! Interesting where all this went. Well at least we are all still talking to each other. Still having fun here. Later eh...Brian.

[Anonymous]

Deisel/steam it doesn't matter. I'm just happy that I can run trains. - AMEN

[Anonymous]

I am surprised that the British guys havent weighed into this argument already, i agree that Marty won the competition because he is a good modeler and because he took a good photograph of his handy work.

However the critiscism about bias i believe is correct not so much toward diesel but toward what has become "The Norm". I am not alone in believing that most of you American modellers have lost your way and are slavishly following each other and that just about all your model railways look like clones of each other. Brilliant but similar.

This is why i did not enter as i was pretty sure it would be a "hometown" decision and I certainly don't mean anyone would cheat, more just go along with similar to what they had seen in the past.

For instance i went to a lot of trouble to take a photograph of an "Orient Express' type passenger train, taken at dusk with all lights bazing, beautifully refelected in water and i didn't submit it because I saw all the examples of what had been submitted in the past and again not only are the railways look like clones of each other but so too do the pictures.

Again i reiterate that i don't suggest that anyone would cheat nor do i suggest that there are not some very brilliant layouts are around, but i think the whole situation needs to change and that we all do not slavishly follow each other down a very familiar path because that is what we have always done.


Regrds ian

[Anonymous]

Hi guys,

Let's get back to basics. It's your garden, it's your money, it's your time, it's your railway. Run what the heck you want in whatever scale/guage you want, whenever you want, in whatever direction you want. Marty, pls keep taking photo's cos I enjoy your work. Everyone else, pls keep taking photo's cos I enjoy your work. One day I'll work out this photo thing and show you my work. Above all else, ENJOY. (Is that shouting?)

Ian, that's Troy & me weighed in mate! Our Ian has joined in as well, below, so that's this sceptred isle taken care of!![2c]
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[powlee]

Kim
[^]Amen to that.

You are right in everything you say. I don`t have a garden layout with stations and houses. I have a garden that has trains running through it. I run trains all scales, all eras over bridges and viaducts that do not look out of scale.

While the photos are great and I wish I could find my way to uploading pics of mine, it`s what goes on in ones own backyard that is the most important thing.

The only thing that surprised me about the `moaning` article in GR was that it took so long to appear on the forum. I dismissed it as sour grapes and moved on the next article.

All the best
Ian P (the other third of the British Isles)

[Marty Cozad]

Folks , I know there are lots of photo sites that are free and others you pay for. I figured if you pay to be on a site you might as well find one you can share photos on other sites with.
I belong to a number of sites, Mylargescale.com allows you to store your photos and share the url on other sites such as this one.
Thats one thought, all the shots you see here is from there. I have 50mbts worth of room. And I still have not run out of room.

BTY

I recieved a e-mail from the gentalman who sent the letter to GRYs and it was very nice sharing thoughts and being open about our views and backgrounds. Now I have another person to go visit someday and see their GRRs.
Cool ah????

[Anonymous]

I agree with my British mates, its your garden and your money and you are well advised to do just what you want.

However this just like all undertakings in life need variety and new ideas to survive, otherwise they will all just qietly and slowly dissapear into the sunset.

Variety is the essemnce of life and if we all liked the same things and the same people where would we be ?


Regrds ian

[Anonymous]

Where would I be? On a beach with Ian watching bikini clad women drinking cold beer! that's where i want to be[:D]

[Anonymous]

Ian,

In Australia??!![:-,]

Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[marlboro]

Well if ANYONE can do it better, WE RE waiting; Till then, I don t think Marty deserves all this negative feedback, which BTW takes alot of time to build. He s advanced to his own personal view of GR, Fantasy because we know it s not real, thats what we do here buy trains and pretend they re real, AND reality, is what he decided to do or leave out, or in, whatever. Great photography as well, nevertheless, I ve accumulated as of now 8 grand worth of G scale trains and accessories, and they mostly sit in my storage room, since I don t have the room to run it indoors, since I m renting. I too can t wait to have my own spread, and when I do, boy those trains are gonna look good outside, as they were meant to be!!!! Marty did it, won, and to that I say Bravo!!!! It s up to YOU, to win the next contest, isn t it. Better get working, being steam,diesel, or those old hand pump cars. I m here to learn, and that I am from you fine people out there. Seen many great layout pics, so far, and If I can get close to an idea , Then my passion for this great hobby will have been accomplished, BUT never ending