Rude Dealers

[emipapa]

This past Christmas my wife had given me some rolling stock, She explained to me that wherever she had contacted she was told that they OUT OF STOCK. The last dealer she had contacted was kind enough to substitute cars for her but they were not what I had on my list. My wife then went on to explain to me that when she questioned the very many dealers regarding the availabilty of items and explained that they were being listed in there advertisements in the current Garden Railways Magazine, most got VERY RUDE and some even HUNG UP. In the past two weeks I myself have viewed and contacted every website listed in the Garden Railways Magazine and many have the rolling stock I desire listed in their advertisements but when I contacted them they would state OUT OF STOCK, I further emailed EVERY email address and out of a very large number of address only a very few dealers responded to my request. At the very end of my search a VERY SMALL DEALER explained to me that the rolling stock I desire is NO LONGER AVAILABLE and hasn't been for a year or two. I question why dealers knowingly list these items in their advertisements. As a retired professional both in the public and private sectors I am starting to wonder what ever happened to proper buisness ETHICS.
Oh by the way, that VERY SMALL DEALER that provided the HONEST INFORMATION did have what I was looking for so now it is in shipment.
Sorry for the RANT but I just had to VENT my feelings,
Ron
[:)]

[Tom The Brat]

Whew...

Glad you found what you wanted. It's a little hard to keep track of what is available and what isn't.

[bman36]

Hey Ron,
In the past I have spoken with Rene regarding such issues with the advertisers. GR is very interested in knowing what kind of service is being provided by their advertisers. After all poor service affects the Mag. too. If you would care to provide Rene with the who / what / where info on your bad experience, it will be followed up on. Hope this helps you out. Later eh...Brian.

[TurboOne]

I agree Ron, many dealers have not developed any sales skills, people skills at all. When I was a kid some 25-35 years ago, I went into a train store and they wouldn't even acknowledge I was there. I went back there as its the only train store left in my part of town, I swear it was the same #$%$#%$ guy sitting there. This time he answer some questions, but it was like pulling teeth. If I wasn't interested in a new engine, he was too busy.

Makes you want to open your own people friendly store, and drive them out of business.

Glad you found a better dealer, keep giving him good pub, and lets help him grow.

Tim

[Capt Bob Johnson]

When I run up against that kind of thing I simply let them know that I have the $, and if they want my $ they WILL DO BUSINESS MY WAY AND ON MY TERMS, otherwise I'm walking and I'll find someone who will! That usually straightens them out in a hurry, and in 99% of the time it is permanant! The few times I have had to walk, I've never darkened thier door again! As the old saying goes, Money talks, BS walks!

[Curmudgeon]

Well, from a dealer AND GR advertiser, let me wade in.
First, you are right, and should be highly whizzed.
These "discounters" have multi-page ads, depend on volume for profit. If they don't have it, they send you something they do have (but what you didn't ask for).
Several are HIGHLY guilty of advertising stuff, photos, part numbers, and prices on stuff that hasn't even been designed.
I recall a "warehouse overstock sale" that went on for 16 issues of GR on an Aristo C-16, and it hadn't even been released.
I talk to Horovitz all the time about it.
I even called one manufacturer, and he said "what can we do?". Simple. Tell the dealer to get it right or they don't get anymore stock AT ALL. One outfit straightened right out.....for a couple of issues.
They always claim "lead time".
Heck, I advertise, and the stuff they do has nothing to do with lead time.
Sometimes, the prices have nothing to do with what it will actually be when it is designed, produced and shipped.

I have called an order in, all in stock, met the minimum for free shipping, had them "backorder" ONE item, so I paid shipping on the whole order, then a week later the last item showed up and they charged me shipping on that, too.

There is no customer service. There is no-one who gives a rip. Slam-bam, thank-you ma'am. Get 'em inthe door and out as fast as you can.
Heck, they're DISCOUNTERS, the name of the game is every last penny counts, and they cannot afford to have service.

You folks demand it.
I see it all the time.
"Where can I buy "X" for the cheapest?" or, "Who has the lowest prices on "X"?"
They see that. They design their business model on that exact attitude.
They put the local hobby shops out of business, now they got you by the short hairs.

I know of 2 or 3 outfits that now have "minimum advertised pricing" to counter this "discounter disease".

We had a GR Convention several years ago locally, many of us pushed to ban discounters. GR Conventions become feeding frenzies. NOT what a convention should be, but you folks want discounters, they come in and do their deeds and go away with your money.

I know how close some of them cut the prices, too.
A hobby shop with a storefront and a SERVICE department to pay can't afford to compete. There is no "money tree" in the back yard. It all comes from profit on sales.

Yes, when a discounter screws you (or your order), e-mail the magazine (it's in the front part of the mag) and let them know.
Spread it around.
Let folks know.
The ONLY way you'll get this sorted out is to make them feel it in their wallets.

Rant Mode Off.
TOC

[Capt Bob Johnson]

AMEN! I do believe the man has said it all! You can't have your cake and eat it too! While I generally prefer to buy locally simply for the service angle, a 2 hour drive to the G scale train shop is a bit much. On the other hand, I;ll go to the local hardware store rather than the one with the Lowest prices or the one that sounds like it ought to be a train station, simply because I find more selection and far better service along with a lot less dragging my fat tail around some golf course sized place just to get some screws or something!

[jebouck]

You have to treat every discounter that advertises in GR with the same amount of skepticism. 9 times out of 10, they WILL NOT HAVE in stock what you want.
Period!
I have learned this with about 20 years of experience in "G" scale.
I do not even mail order anymore. I have given up, with all the ("false advertising--IMHO")
I now shop "brick and morter" hoppy shops, where I can touch, see, and, if necessary, test out the item. Or, occasionally, E-vil Bay.
jb

[Anonymous]

Funny how threads cross.If you look on the 'Thought' thread we are tackling the same thing.
Curmudgeon ,can you supply Aristocraft ART 29356 to the United Kingdom.If so ,we need to talk
[:)]
Troy

[Curmudgeon]

No, don't do any AC.
In fact, the last part I got took 3 years to get from them.
But, after transposing numbers twice, they did finally get me one I could re-paint to work.
TOC

[Anonymous]

These blokes in Germany will leave all your complaints for dead, they won't even answer me. Finally one did, "Lokshop" and I had to do a bit of detective work to find out that he was in Karlsruhe, I was overjoyed but it didn't last long I gave them an enquiry worth about US$ 5000 (including two locos with MTS and sound) covering many items, even said i would come to Karlsruhe, give him several months notice as to the date of my visit and offered to pay a depsit but no answer. I even got a friend to translate a lot of it into German.


So try that for bad service.


Rgds Ian

[TurboOne]

[angel][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][bow]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Well, from a dealer AND GR advertiser, let me wade in.
First, you are right, and should be highly whizzed.

I have called an order in, all in stock, met the minimum for free shipping, had them "backorder" ONE item, so I paid shipping on the whole order, then a week later the last item showed up and they charged me shipping on that, too.

There is no customer service. There is no-one who gives a rip. Slam-bam, thank-you ma'am. Get 'em inthe door and out as fast as you can.
Heck, they're DISCOUNTERS, the name of the game is every last penny counts, and they cannot afford to have service.

You folks demand it.
I see it all the time.
"Where can I buy "X" for the cheapest?" or, "Who has the lowest prices on "X"?"
They see that. They design their business model on that exact attitude.
They put the local hobby shops out of business, now they got you by the short hairs.

I know of 2 or 3 outfits that now have "minimum advertised pricing" to counter this "discounter disease".

We had a GR Convention several years ago locally, many of us pushed to ban discounters. GR Conventions become feeding frenzies. NOT what a convention should be, but you folks want discounters, they come in and do their deeds and go away with your money.

I know how close some of them cut the prices, too.
A hobby shop with a storefront and a SERVICE department to pay can't afford to compete. There is no "money tree" in the back yard. It all comes from profit on sales.[

Hi Curmudgeon, you make some good points. I've edited the parts of your comments that apply for me.

Glad at part one you rooted for the customer, that shows me service and a caring for a fellow man, irregardless of profit. And yes, to me that means God has a place for you in heaven. Good Job.

Having a manufacturer treat like like a leaper is rediculous, you are what keeps them going, and they don't have to deal with the irrate customer after they screw up an order, the dealer does. In all businessess it seems as if the manufacturers and distributors only care about the bottom line. Too bad. That is what use to made America great. Didn't they learn by watching Miracle on 32nd St. ?

Lack of Customer Service. The king of retail leads in this. Wally World hires the stupidest people. IE when you walk in the door, where are your mens socks. They turn and point to 140,000 sq. ft. of store and say over there. Burns me up so bad I know most store managers by name. All these large conglomerates say service, but never follow thru. And the customers keep on going back like lemmings. I don't blame companies, I blame the shoppers. Too stupid to know a bad deal, but they look at the bottom line on one item and think they saved on all. Many times the other items are higher there than at a non wally world store.

But many of us are also mad at the LHS guys. I am 45, have a little money and lots of credit cards with no debt on them, but everytime I go into my local shops, because I don't want a DCC, sound loco, I want some answers to my layout, I am treated as if I have the plague. I started by getting some free lit. by some manufactures, then I bought some starter mags. I also got some small couplers and trucks for old trains. In about 4 trips, maybe $100 or so. I wanted a Thomas the Train set for Christmas, A Percy set, and all the Thomas characters available in HO, because that was what I had at home. The dumb HO guy, who was old and crusty, says we don't carry that junk. It will only break and not be any good. Turns out Thomas is available inO gauge, they carried that, but he never mentioned a word. No Hogwarts express in HO, its discontinued, and Polar Express is only in O gauge and can't be had. He adds, Thomas is discontinued, Hogwarts is also, and not availableanywhere. Huh, in the Walthers catalog I bought from him, they have Thomas sets listed. So I searched at LHS number two in town. He wouldn't carry that junk either. Although he had a basic Thomas set that he was dumping, for more than the deluxe set listed for.

Woo Hoo, thank God for the internet. It is the great equalizer. Dumb customers like me can learn, by searching manufacturers, dealers, and great sites like trains. I know I can find anything if I type it into google. It lead me to ebay and there I found an internet seller. His prices were better than Walthers, and Walthers was out of all the sets, and some accessories. I bought the whole lot and it arrived about a week later. And Christmas was fantastic. Santa scored big time. [bow] But did I get a thank you or a smile?

To me a returning newbie after 30 years away from trains, I knew what I wanted sort of. The dealers had no interest in my measly purchases, he did clean one engine with a magnetic cleaner, I offered to pay, but he said no, and I wanted to deal with him due to the service he rendered.But you have to have people skills, and frowns, grumpyness, and the nose up in air attituede, means I will go on the internet, pay less and get treated like crap, but thats for me, was just like the store. [}:)] I even asked the LHS if they had classes for beginners, and they laughed and said they haven't done them for years.

Customers apply to the next few points you made, and I am one of them, although I try to use my brains.[:D] I will try to use the little guy, as I am not handy, getting better, but I need help. So I do ask a lot of questions. I want to start outdoors, and I want to know why I can't use HO there. I could have a huge layout with that little train. They didn't even show me O gauge and it would be perfect for me. Lots of billboard cars, lots of color, smoke, lights, and a sense of humor.

They didn't show me G gauge, and it, like O, has color, smoke, sound, and cool people. I wanted to have with my kids in trains, not be a perfectionist. Still told "HO" has the most.

I did find a LHS, 50 miles away, instead of 5, but he was excellent. I have made my last few purchases from him. He is higher than the discounter, but he works a little on price and his info is worth what I pay above the dealer online. And tax seems to be lower than shipping charges. If he keeps up the good work, I will use him to ball all my large purchases, but the local rude guy when I need couplers, or truck right now.

You sound frustrated, but seem to be a happy kind of guy. Must be to get in this dumb business.[:D][:D]
I think if the small dealers pays attention to the kids, and the newbies, his business will grow, inspite of the internet. You can offer the one thing that is priceless. A smile.[:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][:)][8D][8D][8D][8D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

That is what brings me back. I would explain to the nice, future of my business, penny pinching guy, that the classes I offer, the knowledge I give, more than pays for itself. When you trains break, I am the man. Have a question, I will get the answer. And always give the smile. That brings more priceless feelings out, which will generate more profits for the dealers. I have always sold like the guy in the 32nd st movie, and usually finish #1 in my region, not just my store. Maybe someone in this world of trains will have travelling reps, and this relationship can start and we can all have this hobby take off.

Hang in there Curmudgeon, know that some of us customers have some brain cells working, and keep smiling. I have taken 4 non train friends and brought them into the world of trains just in the last three weeks. I have bought over $1000, most not from the mean hobby shop, but the nice one, and have the 4 new addicts buying as well. By Christmas next year, with the research I have done, I probably will spend another $5000 if I stay with HO or more when I jump to O or G for outdoors. That is another ball of questions.
I just wanted to give some of the customer side, but one who has been a wholesaler, retailer, and customer. People skills always wins in the long run over quick, low prices. But you have to emphasize the service and the training, so they can see the forest thru the trees. [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
Have a great week buddy.

Tim (yes its long, but hopefully polite and effective)

If you are anywhere near SoCal I would love to come to your store,

[vsmith]

TurboOne

Give me an e-mail I'll give you the skinny on a couple of great LS stores up here in LaLa Land you can mail order from. Good service and great prices..

Yer nieghbor , Vic in LA, and I don't mean Louisiana!

[Curmudgeon]

Tim- I'm a "niche" shop, near Seattle. I get what is needed for the locals and customers all over the country.
We have a small layout that is run in "operations" once a week in summer, every other in winter.
It's only about 1400', something over 70 switches.
Aluminum rail, hand-throws, all elevated somewhat.
I do product testing for a couple of places (some more that don't ask) and we generate modifications, which the manufacturer does and we re-evaluate.
I am a firm believer in solid testing in the real world not only before but during production.
I don't handle or sell anything we haven't proved to ourselves works in our environment.
I also write reviews, and get all sorts of folks mad at me (goes with the territory).
What part of SoCal?
BTW, how do you enjoy Seattle weather?
All that rain you're getting is what usually happens here....the pressure zones have shifted it down to you and we're pretty dry (but cold) right now.
TOC

[Anonymous]

"Turns and points to 140,00 SF of store and says it's over there..."

[^]

[TurboOne]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Tim- I'm a "niche" shop, near Seattle. I get what is needed for the locals and customers all over the country.
We have a small layout that is run in "operations" once a week in summer, every other in winter.
It's only about 1400', something over 70 switches.
Aluminum rail, hand-throws, all elevated somewhat.
I do product testing for a couple of places (some more that don't ask) and we generate modifications, which the manufacturer does and we re-evaluate.
I am a firm believer in solid testing in the real world not only before but during production.
I don't handle or sell anything we haven't proved to ourselves works in our environment.
I also write reviews, and get all sorts of folks mad at me (goes with the territory).
What part of SoCal?
BTW, how do you enjoy Seattle weather?
All that rain you're getting is what usually happens here....the pressure zones have shifted it down to you and we're pretty dry (but cold) right now.
TOC

Had quite enough, will do some anti rain dances and send it back to you. Last year I believe we had 7 inches all year. At least our lakes are filling back up. Oh and I don't have to pay to water my grass. We had a 4 foot wide waterfall of the patio roof last night. That was cool. Glad we finished roofing it about a week ago. Whew.

I am in San Diego, almost as far south as you can go.

I have never been to the Great Northwest, well idaho as a kid, but always wanted to see green country. We are normally brown or tan down here. But not this winter. [:)]

Send me your website if you have one, would love to chat with a real train guy that enjoys people and trains. Sometimes its a hard combo to find. [:)]

Have a great day, and can't wait to see you hit 100. Woo Hoo a two star guy.

Tim

[Anonymous]

In the UK I deal with a guy from Scotland, Sandy at Scottish garden Railways. The guy is an absolute gent and a pleasure to deal with, nothing is too much trouble and he answers all enquieries promptly. Ordered an Aristo (Delton) C16 from him last Wednesday and it's on its way, delivered to my door for £162-00. Bargain. I know I could get it cheaper by ordering through the mag with an American dealer but then Sandy would go out of business and everyone loses. A case of small is beautiful methinks.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[powlee]

Hi Kim
Always have a look at Scottish Garden Railways website. Never dealt with them but your recommendation counts for a lot. It is nice to be able to walk into a shop and gaze at the goodies but they are always too far to travel to.

And Kim,Troy. GRS? I know where you are coming from.

All the best
Ian P

[Anonymous]

Hi Ian,

You won't beat Sandy's service. He has great track prices but it's a visit to Scotland because of the weight/postage. I usually find that I have to go to the sorting office to pick up the parcel, but I would have to go into town to visit the local shop anyway.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[Curmudgeon]

Well, I almost had to move down to Sandy Eigo.
Had a little scare that my boat was going to be moved to the Maritime Museum there, but looks like that got sorted out.
Still working on it and preparing to re-open in Spring.
I think just the cost of MOVING it was a problem.
Website: (not much, but it's there)
http://dnkgoods.home.mindspring.com/index.html

or......
http://www.russiansubseattle.com/album.html


but that one has nothing to do with trains....other than maybve the diesel engines...

ET(SS)
Chief of the Boat (COB)
SS(B) 39 Cobra
Pier 48, Seattle.


TOC

[TurboOne]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Well, I almost had to move down to Sandy Eigo.
Had a little scare that my boat was going to be moved to the Maritime Museum there, but looks like that got sorted out.
Still working on it and preparing to re-open in Spring.
I think just the cost of MOVING it was a problem.
Website: (not much, but it's there)
http://dnkgoods.home.mindspring.com/index.html

or......
http://www.russiansubseattle.com/album.html


but that one has nothing to do with trains....other than maybve the diesel engines...

ET(SS)
Chief of the Boat (COB)
SS(B) 39 Cobra
Pier 48, Seattle.
TOC

Nice website, I really like the snow shot. Way cool. Congrats on the big 1 double 00 post. Have a great day. I have to go figure out how to drain my backyard.

Tim

[Curmudgeon]

Post counts are funny things.
I was a member when this first started, it was fairly inactive, when I came back they had purged all the files and I was no longer here.
Oh, well.
TOC

[Anonymous]

yes I have even heard abiout Sandy here in Australia and I have picked up his advertisements several times, however his prices don't look so ho to me , a lot better than here in Australia but a lot higher than in US of A and in Germany.


Regrds Ian

[emipapa]

I would like to say THANK YOU,
THANK YOU to everyone that responded to my rant regarding RUDE DEALERS. I also wi***o respond to TORBY, I am sure that the large dealers are computerized or how else would they know if it is IN or OUT of stock when you call. I would also like to THANK CURMUDGEON for being honest and speaking from BOTH sides of the store counter, my hat is off to you for being so honest. I would love to do business with a local hobby or train shop but there is not a fully stocked shop within 500 miles of my location. The local mom and pop shops all have the usual track and sometimes a switch or two but ask about a certin piece of rolling stock and their eyes glaze over for a minute then they state "I will see if its available and would you like me to order it". Both my wife and I don't like to buy from a picture but we do understand that it cost money to stock the shelves, but to be told that a SPECIAL ORDER will cost extra or get a HANG UP in your ear is not my way of buying a product or doing business with a retail dealer. This is the reason that the MULTI-PAGE advertisers in GRM are alive, but I am sure it will catch up with them at some point in the near future. We both are amazed at the number of people that have encountered the same treatment the we have encounted in the resent past.
Again I say Thank You for showing your support,.
Ron.

[Anonymous]

I absolutely detest dealers whose websites are simply laundry lists of "possible" items. "Let's just list everything we might be able to sell and maybe someday we'll be able to get them for you." Hey, wake up! This is the twenty-first century, folks. How hard is it really to link your inventory database to your website so we can see what is in-stock before we order? Anyone who does it well will certainly get my business.

I know a store (non-train), that when I log in to their website, I'm linked to the database at my local store. For each item I look at I have the option to have it delivered to my home or pick it up at the store; and even if it is in-stock at my local store. If I find something I want that is in-stock I know I can drive right on over and pick it up. How cool is that? That store is now my favorite place to shop. If only buying model railroading supplies were that easy!

Bill

[Rastun]

Hey all,

On the 29th of December I ordered a box of track, a rail bender, and some other pieces for track production from Wholesaletrains.com. The track and the rail bender had a note on thier web site that they usually ship in 5-7 working days. Last week I called them and asked about the order since it hadn't shipped yet and got told "We are waiting for a couple pieces from Aristocraft to show up." I asked them if they had any idea how long it would be until they where in and got a flat answer of NO. So this week shows up, I keep checking order staus online and nothing has moved yet. I call again yesterday after checking availabilty of the two items with another merchant, who btw has the stuff in stock, and ask how my order is coming. I was told "The track is on back order." I tell em to cancel my order, the lady on the phone "The whole order?" and I said yes and she sounded totally bewildered, like I should have still got the rest of the order from them even though they misrepresent times on thier web site. Have what I would call zero customer service, because an e-mail explaining the situation would have only taken a few seconds ok a minute to type and send out and may have kept them the order (a little information can go along way). Anyway I know they won't have to worry about me darkening thier web doorstep again, just because of this I'll go somewhere else even if it does cost more.

Later,
Jack

P.S. anyone know a good supplier for hartland loco works items< I kind of like thier new mining equipment.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rastun


P.S. anyone know a good supplier for hartland loco works items< I kind of like thier new mining equipment.

Sent you an e-mail, good luck, Vic

[Anonymous]

All this is not in the same class as our dealers here in Australia, they are much, much worse. I have been waiting for nearly a month for two decoders, pretty normal items but not here in Queensland you wait for weeks for even the simplest thing. No wonder we are all retired and the pace of life is very slow but a month for two decodrs?

I have also been confirmed that Scottish railways indeed all Briti***rain dealers are not competitive compared with French and German dealers.

People in the know go over to France or Germany to buy stuff, 2 to 3 times a year. as i understand it and that is just what i am going to do.

Regards ian

[Anonymous]

Probably in 20 years you can count the small dealers on one hand - most will be doing mail order or Ebay.

[TurboOne]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dontrainman

Probably in 20 years you can count the small dealers on one hand - most will be doing mail order or Ebay.

Good to see this topic back. I have been doing a lot of thinking about dealers. I think the right person, with a business mind first, lots of train sense also, would boom in most cities. From what I have read on here, many hobbyists are frustrated with poor dealers, and some of the remaining dealers are frustrated with low profits.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


Could be a ripe for the pickin future in many places.

Tim