Affordable installation of battery/RC in low-end locos?

[Anonymous]

Tony,

I can feel my fingertips a tinglin'. Can't wait to see the process. Just a reminder: Beginners don't know anything. So don't take anything for granted. If possible, document every single procedure with a before-during-after photograph sequence.

NOT DETAILED ENOUGH: "Here's wire x in its final position."

GREAT: "here's wire X in its original factory position. Now here's wire X being pulled through the hole I drilled in the chassis. Now here's wire X in its final position."

Use a maximum of photos, because electrical and modeling terminology means much less to us than they do to a seasoned hobbyist. Consider borrowing a high-res camera if you don't have one.

At the end, if someone who doesn't speak English could simply look at the photos and perform the entire conversion without any further information, you'll know you've succeeded in explaining it simply enough.

I hope you don't mind these reminders. They may be TOTALLY unnecessary. You may be extremely aware of how simple we need it -- some experts are! But some experts can forget over time exactly how ignorant beginners are. So, not knowing which group you belong to, I thought it couldn't hurt to remind you.

I'm an expert in nothing... except being a rank beginner. [:D] [:I]

[TonyWalsham]

I have spent a good few hours just looking at the loco.

I have decided to do two installations.

The first one will be a crate on a tailboard. I agree it will be very easy to wire up.
Width and length (when the gondola is modified) would be OK but unfortunately the total height of the package will 2½" meaning the gondola will be a bit too short.
So I will fabricate a suitable box in sheet styrene and mount the crate on a piece of thick sheet styrene I will screw to the chassis.
The crate will be removable by lifting up to gain access to the battery packs and the R/C etc. An ON-OFF switch will be stuck to the floor between the battery packs.

After that is done I will then return the loco to a switcher and do the installation again for those that would like everything inside the cab.

The crate is underway and I'll be back as soon as I have got something to show.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

Figure8.
I do like the idea.
I will get one from a local supplier and have at it.
Having everything outside the cab will make life a lot easier.
More to follow.
Best wishes,
Tony Walsham (RCS).

Sounds like fun. Another advantage is, if the beginner eventually "outgrows" the (somewhat toy-like, and roughly 1:24 scale) Mack, they can just cut the crate-o-goodies free from the back of the Mack and transfer it en toto back onto a Hartland mining car....to serve as the battery/RC car for their new, more expensive engine.

F8

[TonyWalsham]

Figure8.
I do like the idea.
I will get one from a local supplier and have at it.
Having everything outside the cab will make life a lot easier.

More to follow.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Anonymous]

p.s. of course, it's not a proper crate -- no bottom to it. Just the four sides that sit on the gondola. But that shoudn't be a big problem. The Mack provides nearly all of the "floor" for the crate. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of plans for a crate of some kind....Hope you do too...

F8

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

My Hartland Mack switcher and Woody arrived today.
Everything will have to go in the cab....It may be necessary to redo the lights so that the wiring connections go down into the motor block....Constant removal and replacement of the lights lenses may be a long term problem ...The only other problem I foresee is placement of an ON-OFF switch.

Tony, I missed this reply until today. I hope you haven't gotten to far into it yet! Because I want to suggest that you might be able to avoid all of the issues you're describing, and also avoid "littering" in the cab, by doing the following instead:

1. Pop off one of the two mac engines.

2. Glue one of Hartland's Value Line gondola "wooden crates" (the 4-sided box) where the spare engine used to be. (Each of their mining car kits costs only $7.50 and if you borrow the frame, you still have a flat car kit, so this modification is basically free to the customer.) The crate is roughly 3" X 5"X1.5". The 5" length is a bit too wide and should be trimmed down to 4.25" or so, to look right hanging slightly over the sides of the Woody. That's easy to do. The 3" length juts out behind the woody, but not far enough to look odd nor interfere with coupling. Here are some pictures of the gondola's wooden crate:
http://www.h-l-w.com/products/Miniseries/D&RGW-Gondola-web.gif and
http://www.h-l-w.com/products/Miniseries/Hartland-Steel-Gondola-web.gif

3. Run all necessary wires into the Hartland "crate".

4. Fill the Hartland "crate" with electronics, and then pile the battery packs on top of the electronics.

5. Cover the overfilled box with waterproofed fabric (scale burlap?), and secure it with stained string or velcro.

With this approach you'll have the following advantages:

(a) Exceedingly easy access to the battery packs

(b) Everything on board, no trailing battery car

(c) NO modification of the lighting system

(d) NO wear-n-tear on the brass lighting rod or cracking-the-roof-off hassles,

(e) a completely-empty cab -- ready for the beginner to fill with authentic details like an engineer, a throttle, a lantern, tools, seat, etc.

(f) a much simpler overall process for the newbie. (In fact, you could sell newbies the Hartland mining "box" full of all these goodies pre-wired, and just send instructions for running the Mack's leads to the box.)

Does this sound right to you?

Figure8

[Marty Cozad]

Tony
I recieved one of their pickup with trailor thingys, Phil Jenson made it for me cause Hartland has no battery ready units. He just ran the wires to a plug of which I mounted a 9.6 batt in the trailor under a cover and just let it run. goes about 1.5 hour at about 20 mph scale.
I'll have to find a photo of it.
You could put an RC unit in the trailor easy.

[TonyWalsham]

My Hartland Mack switcher and Woody arrived today.

A cursory glance at the Mack indicates it will be possible to have everything on board OK.

Unfortunately the end spaces between the buffer beams and the motor block are not useable for plastic "AA" battery holders. They are just a tad too big.
If cost was not the prime consideration I would get packs made up to fit. However, cost is a prime consideration so some compromises are in order.
Everything will have to go in the cab.
As the battery packs must be removeable for individually charging the cells I am proposing to sit the two packs on the floor of the cab with the speed controller and R/C mounted up in the roof. It will fit just fine.
We may be able to retain the very clever vertical brass tube Hartland uses to mount the cab light headlight. This bulb also doubles as illumination for the headlights. The lenses are on clear longish stalks which push horizontally into the light mouldings and also hold the roof on.
It may be necessary to redo the lights so that the wiring connections go down into the motor block.
Constant removal and replacement of the lights lenses may be a long term problem but I see no way of gaining access to the cab easily and still hold the roof on. The roof may need to be just sitting there.
The only other problem I foresee is placement of an ON-OFF switch. That may need to be mounted under the roof with the R/C equipment.
Anyway, I will have some time this weekend to get started.
More later.

[Anonymous]

Figure 8,

A word of caution. It is illegal to use model Aircraft remote control units for ground equipment. The frequencies are different so that a ground station will not interfere. There is always the possibility of unwittingly taking control of someones airplane and causing damage to it or people.

SM

[Anonymous]

Sounds great everybody. I'm just worried I'll miss the new thread (a busy boy this winter), so Tony, please be sure to post a "redirect" message here so we all get the word.

Also, Tony, I measured and it looks like I overguestimated the amount of free space available under the chassis. But you'll see for yourself soon enough.

Finally, if the battery + R/C gear won't fit easily onboard, consider advising us on how to do it by running it with maybe half the ideal # of batteries (less power = less speed and/or shorter runs, but speed's not crucial for newbies' first battery train, especially if it's a switcher which SHOULD run slow per prototype)... I know in my case, at least, my Macks will never pull many cars, and they don't need to go deal with inclines. I really don't care if they're underpowered.

In fact, slow is good -- they offer a lovely contrast to faster trains around them....

[Anonymous]

Tony, I will be watching as well for general purpose. I'm going battery when ever it is I get a locomotive[:D]

[TonyWalsham]

To figure8, SandyR and anyone interested.

I have ordered one of the Mack switchers and should receive it from San Val in a week or two.
I ordered a pick up whilst I was it.

After I get it I should have some progess after a few days.

Thanks for the spur to do something new.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[SandyR]

May I add, Figure 8, that you're not the only one interested in this! My garden railroad is 11 years old and still running on track power, but I'd like to build a second one out in the pines. That one would have to be battery powered. I have very limited financial resources, so this topic is of great interest to me! And I bet I'm not the only one!!
SandyR

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

It will take some weeks for me to get the switcher organised and delivered from the USA. The actual installation and documentation should be quite speedy once I can get started so please be patient...

Tony - understood ...on this and everything else you said.

[dsweet]

Hi Figure 8. I am Don Sweet from RCS of NE and we provide the installation and sales of the RCS equipment. I would like to call you directly. Plese visit my web site for our number. http://www.remotecontrolthrottles.com

Don

[TonyWalsham]

I understand what you mean about starting a new thread. I was planning on that.

It will take some weeks for me to get the switcher organised and delivered from the USA. The actual installation and documentation should be quite speedy once I can get started so please be patient.

8 x AA batteries is the minimum number for the EVO-2 Motor Driver I have in mind.
Even though I do not normally recommend it, I will be suggesting we use regular AA battery holders. They do have one advantage over fabricated battery packs. You can remove the cells for recharging on low cost consumer chargers.
The ELITE-3 R/C I mainly make requires 12 cells minimum.

Also it is most important to have a good antenna location. A small box is not ideal. It may take some experimentation to get it right.

If the Mack power block has self contained pick ups that are not isolated it will need some surgery to isolate them. Again, something I will find out when I get my sample.

The major factor taken into account with this project will be the cost. Keeping the cost to the absolute minimum necessitates using low cost but relatively cumbersome 2 stick Digital proportional R/C. A lot of modellers will resent the size of the transmitter so the likelihood of Hartland being interested is remote. So to speak.
Smaller hand held R/C systems are more expensive.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

Hi figure8. It would be better if i obtained one for myself and did an installation. I would document it and take photos as I went which would make it easier for you to understand....If the above procedure appeals I will order a switcher asap and get on with it...

Tony. That sounds terrific. A flatbed pickup with a crate full of electronics is exactly what this Switcher seems made to be converted to. I started playing around with building the flatbed last night, and building a crate out of popsicle sticks. It seems like it could fit 8 NIMH "AA" batteries in a holder, plus remote electronics, in the flatbed.

May I suggest that you post your photos and documentation as a new thread, and that we retire this one at this point? My concern is that in this thread, other beginners may never "read far enough down the thread" to see how valuable a tutorial you've created.

Also, I'd suggest you post the photos/documentation as a tutorial at the other main large scale trains online forum(s). Because if the tutorial has a lot of visibility, this could become the major way newbies get into battery-R/C LS trains!

Finally, if it works as smoothly as I think it will, you might even consider approaching the manufacturer about marketing a modified Mack + RCS + battery holder pre-installed. The appealing thing to HLW would be that they wouldn't have to retool at all to market this version of the Mack; they could simply substitute one of their mining cars' flatbeds for the rear gas engine, and remove the Mack logo. They could sell it at around $100-$130, it would sell like hotcakes to newbies, and it would establish some "brand loyalty" in those newbies...

Best wishes,

F8

[TonyWalsham]

Hi figure8.

I know of the switcher but am not familiar with it.
I would be glad to walk you through it but trying to do it online is going to be difficult without me knowing exactly what to do. As I said they are all different.

It would be better if i obtained one for myself and did an installation. I would document it and take photos as I went which would make it easier for you to understand.

I believe it could all be done on board.
In the meantime, by any chance do you have an old R/C car transmitter and receiver? If you have it would save you at least $40. Most brands will be OK but Futaba or Hi-Tec are good .

I have seen a conversion to a flat bed "pick up" with a wooden crate that hid the batteries.

If the above procedure appeals I will order a switcher asap and get on with it.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Anonymous]

Hi, Tony. Unfortunately, I don't live near any clubs, nor even a decent hobby shop. So I decided to try doing this myself! I decided that for the mere $36 I paid for my Hartland Mack, I could afford to break it!

Would you like to see if you can guide me through this process online? I can call up, order your parts, and we'll see whether I succeed at this. Since I felt entirely helpless at first, and have no mechanical-electrical skill or experience at all, I think this may help the many others like me take a stab at it themselves, too. I know that I, for one, would be thrilled to stumble across this thread if it indeed turns out to hold the key to getting involved in battery/remote control (R/C) Large Scale (LS) trains for under $200 total expense including the locomotive.

So shall we see if we can figure this out together?

Below let me explain what I've accomplished so far.

1a. Here's a link to photos of the Hartland Mighty Mack Switcher, so people can know what we're referring to in this discussion:
http://www.h-l-w.com/products/locos2.html [ This is a 1:24 scale engine based on a 1920's-designed (?) small gas-powered switcher. With just a little modification (removing the ladders and handrails; raising the cab's roof) it can pass for 1:22 or 1:24. Notice that it has two gasoline engine hoods, facing in opposite directions. It looks somewhat toylike because it's so shiny, but that can be solved easily with a little "weathering" technique. It pulls nicely. I purchased it from wholesaletrains.com for under $40, which is hard to believe. ]

1. I turned the Switcher over, unscrewed 4 phillips screws, and popped the plastic cover off the bottom. Each set of wheels is on an axle with a gear on it; these wheel/axle/gear assemblages simply fell out of the train when I popped the plastic cover off.

2. Looking inside, I could -- really easily and immediately -- see that the the electricity runs from the track, up through the wheel/axle assemblages, and into what I understand are called "loco track pickups" which are simply tiny copper metal contact wires that are in physical contact with the axles. The front axle makes contact with front left & right "pickups" that pass the electricity onto the train's motor via delicate, thin, black plastic-coated wires. The back axle makes contact with rear left & right "pickups" that pass the electricity along to thin black wires that run up to the locomotive's headlights. (the locomotive has a forward-facing and a reverse-facing headlight).

3. I could also see that I could probably fairly easily tug those "pickups" out of their sockets, or just snip 'em if necessary.

4. I put the wheel/axle assemblages back into place and screwed the plastic cover back on. I'll call the entire enclosed wheel/axle assemblage the loco's "chassis" (forgive me if I'm misusing the term).

5. I noticed that there was significant "free" space all around the chassis. There's an empty compartment about 4" X 2" X 2.5" deep in front of the front axle, and another one in back of the rear axle. Is this enough space to mount the wireless receiver and what you call the "motor driver"?

6. I began to look for more space up higher on the loco. This is a two-direction switcher. It has a superficial plastic engine facing forward and an identical one facing backward. (Take another look at the photo) I pried off one of the two plastic engines off, and in doing so created a fairly sizeable amount of free space "on deck". Would this space be enough to house a battery pack, disguised as some kind of wooden crate full of cargo?

If the spaces I've described seem sufficient, then it should be very easy to drill a tiny hole and run the wires from the "battery crate" down into the undercarriage area where the motor driver and wireless receiver are located. And then...no battery car required!

I'll be interested to know what you think. Take a look at the loco picture link, and see if you think the space is sufficient. If it's workable, I bet you could get a lot of newbies like me into the hobby by offering a conversion kit for this particular loco. It'd offer a nearly-zero financial risk beginner's conversion project.

I have other specific questions such as whether rechargeable AA batteries can be used, how to wire the lights, and so forth. But I'll wait for responses to this first entry before asking them.

-- F8

[TonyWalsham]

F8.
I would dearly like to be able to help but the problem with being able to offer what you want is that almost every loco is different from another. It is not really practical to offer specialised instructions for installing battery R/C in every loco made.
I do have instruction sheets in pdf form for some popular locos.

The only practical suggestion I can make for a total newbie is to get in touch with your local Garden RR club. It is highly likely someone there has had experience with battery R/C.
If not there, then try your local all scales model RR club. Whilst experience in LS could be in short supply the principles of installation are much the same as DCC.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TonyWalsham

Welcome to LS and Battery R/C Figure 8. For basic set ups the installation is very straightforward. You connect the battery pack to the + & - terminals on Motor Driver and the output to the motor. Four wires. The loco track pick ups MUST be isolated from the track. You can rewire the lights to be on constantly and change direction but you can leave them as is to start with. You may need to add the suppression components I supply to the motor. For future installations you will need to decide whether or not you want sound and if it is to be controlled by R/C as well. It can be quite easily. Best wishes,Tony Walsham (RCS).

Tony, thanks for the detailed and generous reply. From browsing the internet I can tell that you and RCS have a good reputation, and I'm interested in your products. But your reply is actually the kind of reply that has discouraged me over the past couple weeks: To someone like you, the modifications you're describing sound extremely simple. To someone like me, without seeing each step illustrated in photos and without very detailed text, it's like you're speaking greek. Tony, I can't even figure out how to take the plastic case off of these engines, let alone locate the track pickups. For another example, I'd presumably need to drill holes in the loco and solder a male/female receptacle onto the wires leading into your Motor Driver (to allow disconnects of the battery car from the loco). There are so many confusing details that only detailed, annotated photographs would clear up for me.

So I guess my question remains the same: Does anybody provide an affordable battery+R/C installation service?

If not, is there a bullet-proof tutorial online that shows exactly what to do on this kind of loco? (If not for this kind of loco, at least for some other low-end 1:20 - 1:24 scale diesel switcher/narrow gauge/smallish engines?)

Thanks again.

F8

[TonyWalsham]

Welcome to LS and Battery R/C Figure 8.

My name is Tony Walsham. I am the owner of Remote Control Systems (RCS). I make battery R/C motor drivers for LS.

The two locos you have mentioned are pretty small so a trail car is more than likely. I take it you will not be requiring sound or sound triggers at first?

You can get a complete battery R/C TX, RX and Motor Driver for less than US$100 by using my EVO-2 motor driver ($60) and a Hi-Tec 2 stick R/C from Tower Hobbies ($39). One set per loco.

http://www.rcs-rc.com/Actionindex.htm

You will also need batteries which I cannot quote for but should be around US$40 and a method of charging them. $50-$60 but you can use it for multiple locos. You will need a fuse for the battery, an ON-OFF switch and hookup wire.

For basic set ups the installation is very straightforward. You connect the battery pack to the + & - terminals on Motor Driver and the output to the motor. Four wires. The loco track pick ups MUST be isolated from the track.
You can rewire the lights to be on constantly and change direction but you can leave them as is to start with.
You may need to add the suppression components I supply to the motor.

For future installations you will need to decide whether or not you want sound and if it is to be controlled by R/C as well. It can be quite easily.

I have a number of dealers in the USA handling RCS products. They are listed at the website.

Best wishes,

Tony Walsham (RCS).

[Anonymous]

I'm new to the hobby and on a tight budget. I've got a lot of aluminum Aristo track and a couple of very affordable locos (Hartland's Mack switcher, and their "mining company" loco). I also have Hartland oil tank cars which can serve as the battery cars.

I can't seem to find step-by-step instructions for converting these to battery and R/C power. Without extremely detailed and customized instructions, I just don't think I can pull it off myself. (I'm not electrically or mechanically knowledgeable). So what do I do? I'm at some risk right now of becoming disheartened and leaving the hobby.[:(]

Specific questions for the forum --

1. Who is on the list of people you would trust to convert these particular locos to battery and R/C ? It's fine with me if you nominate your own company. [:)]

2. Roughly how much should I expect the entire battery + R/C INSTALLATION to cost me per loco? (I'm dreading this part...)

3. For my future plans: Are there any specific compact Diesel switcher-type and short-wheel-base steam locos that are incredibly easy to convert to battery + R/C, and for whom the entire conversion process is well-documented by the manufacturer or online or in a magazine? If so please do tell! Because I'd love to do future conversions myself but it simply can't become complicated or I'll get confused and miserable. ("Know thyself", right?) This is a short-line, narrow gauge, tight-radius railroad, so the locos must be pretty tiny. I'm interested mostly in 20.3 or 22.5 scale trains at this point.

Thanks folks!

Figure8