Hi All,
I've been a model railroader for quite some time now, mostly working in two rail O scale. I'm starting to dive into garden railroading and I'm looking for a little help and direction.
I have always been a heavy scratchbuilder, but I've noticed that scratchbuilding supplies are not as plentiful for the garden scales as they are for my native O scale. I would like to try my hand at making some small freight cars to ease myself into 1:20.3. So far I have found archbar trucks (less wheelsets) from Piko, for around $8 a pair, and wheelsets from bachmann, for around $20 for four sets, as some of the cheaper options to get started. Thoughts?
I've always used Kadee in O scale for my couplers, are they commonly used in large scale as well? I've noticed that they offer quite a few different large scale products, but is there a sort of standard large scale coupler people tend to gravitate to? Sort of like, old #5 in HO and #805 in O?
If I can get the trucks, wheelsets, and couplers figured out then I'm good to go for scratchbuilding cars.
I'm also looking forward to scratchbuilding some structures. I've done a lot of this in O, but I've never had to worry about outdoor use. I ordered the Garden Railways book on this subject and I'm looking forward to getting started.
Many Thanks!
Welcome aboard DAP,
You have found a good source of information here. Others to consider are the forums at Large Scale Central (www.largescalecentral.com), My Large Scale (www.mylargescale.com), and Bachman (www.bachmanntrains.com). Only to provde additional source information, my club web site links page has a bunch of good info as well (http://www.ecgrc.com/links.html).
Scratch building in large scale is for the most part no different than the smaller scales, except there is a much larger and sometimes less expensive source of materials. I am also a scratch builder, and my table saw is my gest friend. Here is a link to a good article on cutting scale lumber on your table or band saw. http://www.gscalejunkie.com/Articles/MillingScaleLumberRev-01.pdf
Bachmann and USA Trains also offer truck frames for easy on the pocket prices. Bachmann wheel sests are my go to standard. They are not the best on the market, but as far as I am concerned, the best bang for the buck. Kadee makes a very nice array of couplers for large scale in both #1 scale (1:32) and 'G' scale (1:22.5ish). Depending on your style of modeling, the #1s look better but the 'G' scale ones are more robust.
Plastruct is a good source for scratching structural stuff. Evergreen is also fair, but Plastruct has larger selection of large size materials. Ozark Miniatures has a great selection of detialing parts and kits. When they are available, the Hartford Products line of kits are really good, high quality.
Hopefully this will get you a good start. Spend some time to read the forums, and don't be bashfull about asking questions, there will alwaays be someone there to answer it. And frequently there will be several varying opinions to choose from.
Agian.....Welcome Aboard.
Bob C.
dumbasapost
Welcome to playing in the dirt. I had a 25 year history in HO and N before moving to the garden. Most everything I have in the smaller scales is equipped with Kadee. Moving to the garden I wanted to use Kadee as they worked so well indoors. After converting a dozen freight cars to Kadee I noticed that they were quickly jammed up by dirt and other junk found in the dirt. That was 20 some years ago, so I'm sure they are better now. I now have three different coupler types in my fleet. The LGB is mostly equipped with the LGB hook and loop couplers. All of my logging and MOW equipment is fitted with link and pin system. These are all dedicated service types of eqipment, never need to drop of a car or two here and there. Well over half of my fleet is equiped with Bachman knuckle couplers, which work very well for my needs.
I would suggest getting a 6-pack of several different coupler types and experimenting to find what best fills your needs and desires.
As for the "parts and pieces" for scratch building I suggest you stick with top of the line parts and pieces. Why buy the same thing twice? Especially since you know deep down that you will be upgrading in a few years. If you are pushing electrons down the rails start with a top of the line power supply that will handle your upgrades and expansion for your system. In my case there are 4 working power supplies in my storage shed that were not able to handle all of my expansions.
Enjoy the new field to you of Garden Railroading, now get out there and play in the dirt.
PS Never hesitate to ask a question here. Most questions posted here will return several different ways to solve the problem. The trick is to find the answer that best suits your needs and desires.
Tom Trigg
After thoughts. As Bob said, a good table saw, band saw and/or scroll saw are vital to scratch building. The best source for lumber that I have found is from fencing companies. When I see them replacing a wooden fence in the local area I stop by and talk to the work crew supervisor. Since they pay to dispose of the old wood, they are more than happy to give me what I need. Most of the time they not only disassemble the fence sections, they also help pulling the old nails and fill the bed of my pickup. Our local regulations prohibit painted wood from going to mulch/compost recycling and must go to the land fill. Just a quick "food for thought".
Yes, Kadees are used and popular in G scale. The standards you ask about depend if you are going truck mounted or body mounted.
The truck mounts are the easiest, and perform the worst, unless you have really tight curves that force you to truck mount couplers.
The body mount "standard" is the 906, and the truck mount is normally the 909, but you need to check the offset needed. Hint: the less offset in the coupler the better the operation.
https://www.kadee.com/htmbord/1gcouplers.htm
Look at the yellow highlighted boxes as most popular. I do not recommend the smaller "#1" coupler, unless you have broader curves and really smooth trackwork.
Greg
dumbasapost Hi All, I've been a model railroader for quite some time now, mostly working in two rail O scale. I'm starting to dive into garden railroading and I'm looking for a little help and direction. I have always been a heavy scratchbuilder, but I've noticed that scratchbuilding supplies are not as plentiful for the garden scales as they are for my native O scale. I would like to try my hand at making some small freight cars to ease myself into 1:20.3. So far I have found archbar trucks (less wheelsets) from Piko, for around $8 a pair, and wheelsets from bachmann, for around $20 for four sets, as some of the cheaper options to get started. Thoughts? I've always used Kadee in O scale for my couplers, are they commonly used in large scale as well? I've noticed that they offer quite a few different large scale products, but is there a sort of standard large scale coupler people tend to gravitate to? Sort of like, old #5 in HO and #805 in O? If I can get the trucks, wheelsets, and couplers figured out then I'm good to go for scratchbuilding cars. I'm also looking forward to scratchbuilding some structures. I've done a lot of this in O, but I've never had to worry about outdoor use. I ordered the Garden Railways book on this subject and I'm looking forward to getting started. Many Thanks!
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
Kadee's are great and as Greg said body mount is the way to go if you have larger radius curves. They are not water proof! Don't leave them outside over nite. I have no experience with any of the other knuckle couplers. If you are just running trains it is hard to the LGB loop coupler. I have gone back to them and now do switching with them with the help of remote train control and a long " 3' " piece piece of 1/4" rod with a triangle bent on the end and when I want to uncouple I stand over the car and depress the nook with the rod and give the car a little shove. Can't say I'm not on top of things,Bill
Thanks for the replies everyone.
After a bit more research I am now considering either Kadee 905 or 906 couplers. Both are body mount and the 906 is similar to the 805 I have been using in O. I like the sill mount look of the 905 though. I'm guessing that the 906 is easier to mount. Does anyone have experience with the sill mount 905?
My project is going to be fairly simple. My major constraint is the size of the garden area and the fact that the whole project needs to be easily removable. We have no concrete plans yet, but my wife and I anticipate moving in about a year.
I have planned a loop of track that is about 38.5 feet in total, using Piko sectional track with six foot diameter curves, which Piko calls R3.
There is currently a slight grade from one end of the garden area to the other, which I have measured to be about 2.5%. I'm going to make a raised track bed using floating ballast and I'm hoping to reduce the grade to 2% or less.
I'm modeling a freelanced western shortline (emphasis on short) circa 1875. My motive power is going to be an LGB porter and my rolling stock is going to be 3 scratchbuilt 14' excursion type cars. I will also be scratchbuilding a small flagstop depot and several frontier false front structures.
In my research I have found that some of my above plans aren't generally recommended practice for garden railroads (curves below 8' diameter, sectional track, floating ballast, etc.), but again, I have to make the project both fit my space and easily removable. I have chosen my motive power and rolling stock with these contraints in mind.
But, I am a novice with this particular kind of model railroading so if any of my decisions raise red flags, please let me know. I have yet to make any purchases so my plans are still very flexible.
The LGB porter comes equipped with an MTS decoder. My DCC experience is limited to Soundtraxx and TCS, my preferred brands for O scale. I'm assuming that MTS follows the same general principles as other DCC manufacturers, but is there anything different I should be aware of?
I own a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra (rated at 3 Amps), which has been more than sufficient for my O scale needs. The local hobby shop uses a Zephyr Xtra for their G scale display, which had an LGB porter running on it during my last visit. They said that the Zephyr can handle this locomotive without any problems. Thoughts?
Thanks again for all of your help. This is shaping up to be a fun project that I hope to use as a learning experience and springboard in preparation for a larger layout at our next house.
DAP,
I forgot to mention in my first post that an excellent book for 'beginners' (I say that tongue in cheek) is Kevin Strong's book "Garden Railway Basics'. He covers almost any topic you can think of from track to layout to power to ....you name it.
dumbasapost In my research I have found that some of my above plans aren't generally recommended practice for garden railroads (curves below 8' diameter, sectional track, floating ballast, etc.), but again, I have to make the project both fit my space and easily removable. I have chosen my motive power and rolling stock with these contraints in mind.
What is with all this negativity? We all do what we can with what we have. In my case, months after we bought this house SWMBO called me out back and on the ground where we had just removed all the plants from the previous owner there was a scratched outline in the dirt. She said "this is going to be my Koi pond, now you put a railroad around it." The out come was an LGB R-3 curve inside a 90 degree tunnel under a waterfall and a bridge with ever increasing grade. The first third is roughly 9%, 14% in the middle with 17% at the top. Long story short, if there was a RULE I broke it and still having fun.
Just because you read "should never" does not mean do not do it. It just means use smaller engines and shorter cars for shorter trains. Which is exactly how I read what you have planned.
The Piko track you selected is, in my opinion, an excelent choice. It is my second favorite, just behind the 'old LGB' track. Being brass rail you will need to clean the rail head severl times a year. Go to your local Home Deot, or equivalent, get a sheet rock pole sander and load it with large green scour pads. This will remove the oxidation from the rail head that prevents free electron flow. Sand paper is quicker but will leave small groves and gouges in the rail that will "grow" dirt, debris and oxidation much quicker. If you must use sandpaper, stay in the wet-dry 6,000 (six thousand) grit range from automotive paint supplies.
You have opted for sectional track. Piko has one meter long sections (and longer). The rail joiners that Piko is equiped with are fairly good for a start. Over a length of time rail joiners will slip a bit and small gaps will appear between the rails. The longer the rail sections the fewer opportunities for a pilot wheel to "pick" a joint seperation and jump track. Rail joiners do not like to be reused. When you move to your new location throw the joiners away and replace with rail clamps. Much more reliable rail joints, both mechanically and electrically. Split Jaw happens to be the brand that was locally available when I started and I over purchased from the start. I have clamps that have been in place without maintenance for 20 years. Turnouts, you will find the need to lift them out and clean with compressed air every so often. Remove the joiners from all six rails and use rail clamps from the start. This will allow the turnout (switch) to be lifed out without disturbing the next 3~4 feet of track from the road bed.
As for the grade you are looking at, I would not be too concerned. The Porter you have selected is a healthy specimine and pulling short cars as you describe will present no problems at all. Our prime movers are stronger than we have a tendenancy to beleive. Case in point, 18 years ago while building the bridge we had done a lot of reading and listening to others and were aware that the street car we planned to use would burn out in a year or two. As I was finishing the superstructure on the bridge she returned home with a bag full of 4 Bachman street cars. The next day we had the inaugral run of the street car on the bridge. Cars 2, 3, &4 went into the storage shed. Number one is still making the climb without trouble and I have three "new, in the box," 18 year old street cars in the shed.
It appears to me that you have done your homework and pre-planning very well. You have recognized your limitations and planned accordingly. Now get outside and play in the dirt.
ttrigg What is with all this negativity?
What is with all this negativity?
I apologize, I didn't mean to come off as negative. Past experience with other railroad forums has taught me that some hobbyists can get hung up on perceived rule breaking, rather than answering the questions presented. I figured I would try to nip this in the bud by demonstrating that I was already aware of my rule breaking. Now I see that my worries were ill-founded.
I have found the garden railway community to be much more focused on pursuing the fun of the hobby, rather than pursuing perfectionism. This is incredibly refreshing and a major reason I have decided to branch out to garden railroading. Some of my O scale projects were becoming more of a chore than a joy (too much rivet counting on my part) and I'm looking forward to some simple freelancing with like minded people.
Today I'm going to finish clearing the garden space and if time permits, I may start staking out the roadbead with more precise elevation measurements.
Again Many thanks for your replies. This has been a very helpful thread.
Sorry you took my attempt at humor the wrong way. I did not mean to offend. It is refreshing to see some one who has properly taken in the constrictions imposed by the available landscape in their plans for the Garden Railroad. Far too often have I seen folks wanting to run a K-27 with 20 full sized freight cars on an R1 curve layout. I wish you and your family many years of enjoyment in the GRR. Feel free to post any questions or concerns here. Any situation you may face has benn handled by the members here. You should expect opposing soloutions to any problem, then pick the method that most fills your need.
Recommendations are just that, recommendations.
When you ask people about building a layout, they will say 10' diameter minimum, nothing over 2% grade etc.
If you can follow these, your life will be a lot easier.
But as Tom points out, your life is not over if you cannot hit these goals.
I wanted to run long trains, so I had to work very hard to maintain 10' minimum diameter, but I had to live with a 3% grade and one section of 5.5% downgrade. I have worked through this (and boy was it a learning experience), and now I can run 50 car trains which was my goal.
One thing to remember is that locomotives that can traverse tight corners is something you cannot change. Many people go out and buy a huge loco only to find they cannot even hit 8' diameter curves.
There's plenty of locos that work on 5' diameter curves and even less.
ttrigg I did not mean to offend.
I did not mean to offend.
No offense taken at all. I was actually worried that I had been offensive by being too negative. I appreciate your comments and guidance and look forward to hearing more.
I did some more reading about the LGB porter and I discovered that it is weatherproof. Some people have said that it can be run in the rain and snow. This is astounding to me (and sounds like a lot of fun). I'm sure that this weatherproofing has some limitations though. If anyone has seen the classic Disney cartoon "The Brave Engineer", you'll remember seeing a fictionalized Casey Jones taking his locomotive down some completely submerged track with just puffs of exhaust appearing above the water's surface. I'm sure this isn't what LGB means by "weatherproof", but that scene is what keeps coming to mind!
Has anyone tried adding sound to the DCC equipped LGB Porter? My favorite sound decoders come from TCS, but their function outputs are limited to 100mA. From what I have been reading, the 5v LGB (Massoth) smoke unit in the porter draws about 0.3 amps. If I used a TCS Wow decoder I would have to lash at least four functions together to safely power the smoke unit. I think I might install the Wow decoder to run motor and sound, while leaving the Massoth with lights and smoke. This seems a little over complicated to me so I am happy to hear any suggestions.
I was able to get the garden area mostly clear yesterday. A little bit more work today and I should be ready to move of to some real work on the road bed.
My Garden Railways book on structures also came yesterday. It has been very helpful with the topics of weatherproofing and UV stabilizing, which are very new to me.
As always, thanks for all of the comments!
just run a small 5v relay off the function output, a reed relay should do. be sure to put a snubber diode across the relay coil.
My LGB Porter ahs had two 'major' encounters with water. The first was a collision with a high velocity cat followed by three Papillions (that's a dog best described as five pounds of bark and fur.) The Porter ended up at the bottom of the Koi pond. Put her on the work bench in the shed and the following weekend gave her a quick lube job and she was running as normal. The second time I had her set for a 20 minute 'leg stretck' on the long run. 90 feet along the back fence through the roses and then a turn to work its way around the apple and plumb trees. I had not adjusted my brain to the time change when I went in to answer the phone. When I cam back out the sprinklers were on and the two gondolas behind her were half full of water. There is (or was) a video on Youtube where some guy delibertly sent his porter down the track into a puddle of water. He fished it out and sent it back on its way. So, I say, yes, they can deal with short exposiures to water, but NOT reccomended.
As an analog dinosaur my experience with sound is limited to a cheap mp3 player with a minute long recording of a shay set to loop play. I will defer to folks like Gregg who have experience.
Great stories, Trigg! I feel like my O scale stuff would lock up and fry just looking at water.
It sounds like this Porter is a great piece of workmanship.
I really like the saddle tank look, but I have also been wondering how feasible it would be to remove the saddle tank, add a pilot wheelset, and scratchbuild a tender to end up with a very small freelanced 2-4-0. From what I have seen, there is a sort of rudimentary boiler under the saddle tank that could be spruced up with boiler bands and runningboards. However, the saddletank contains a large weight that might seriously affect its pulling power if removed, so this idea may be a non-starter.
For now I'm happy to keep the Porter as is, besides trading out the hook and loops for Kadees and a new paintjob.
As an update, I now have my track and I just placed an order for the LGB Porter.
To simpify my plan, I may buy Bachmann's 1:20.3 side dump ore cars to start, instead of diving in to the scratchbuilt excursion cars. That way I have a small consist to run around the loop from the start and I can add the excursion cars as I get time. These Bachmann ore cars seem pretty popular so I hope they are good runners.
The TCS Wow decoder will work beautifully in the LGB Porter. I just finished putting one in mine, and I really like how it runs and sounds. I don't use smoke (and my Porter didn't have it anyway), so that wasn't a concern for me. It's easy to calibrate the BEMF chuff to the rotation of the wheels, and it's pretty consistent through the speed range once programmed. Note: when using Audio Assist to select the sounds you want, you have to select the sounds, then assign them to the function buttons. (i.e., select your whistle, then you have to assign it to F2. Listen to the menu; you'll get there.) The "assign it to a function" aspect isn't clear from the instructions, so I spent a frustrating evening trying to figure out why none of my sounds were "sticking" after I programmed them.
You can remove the tank from the Porter. There's a "full" boiler underneath, though there's no boiler jacket or any details like that. It would make an interesting 2-4-0. You're correct, though, weight will be an issue. There's a weight in the boiler in addition to the one in the tank. I had to remove the weight in the boiler to fit the electronics, so mine's just got the weight in the tank. It's good for 5 or 6 regular freight cars, but it will slip very easily if something gets snagged on my groundcover. Probably about right for a light 8 - 10-ton locomotive, actually.
If you're just doing traditional track-powered DCC (I'm doing wireless battery DCC), the TCS decoder is small enough to where you can probably fit it in the boiler with the original weight, or maybe just cut away enough of it to fit the decoder. You'll need to lose some length for the speaker unless you want to put that in the cab with a small enclosure, which might work well, too. I built a coal bin inside the cab to hide my batteries. You could easily do a speaker enclosure there instead.
Good luck!
Later,
K
dumbasapost I feel like my O scale stuff would lock up and fry just looking at water.
I feel like my O scale stuff would lock up and fry just looking at water.
That is the truth. One time in Ft Riley KS, a extra large drop of condensation on the outside of my ice tea glass fell onto the open workings of my T.E.E. n scale engine. Imediately all the smoke excaped from the windings. Since the Trans Euopa Express was not very available stateside I had to wait 6 months for a TDY to Germany to replace the engine. As a general rule I would not say that any of our G scale is waterproof, but rather very water resiliant.
As far as kitbashing the Porter, I would reccomend looking through the listings here for postings from Vic Smith and his Pizza. Vic has mastered G scale in a three foot square layout. I do not recall him bashing a Porter but he has done some comparable units. Depending on you smaller scale bashing skills you could get a few tips from his postings.
As for your cars, have you had a look at Ozark Minitures? I have done several of their kits, most requiring only a couple hours of work (PLUS glue and paint drying time.) Their 10 foot flats (seen in pics on my Pintrest page below) are super quick and easy. I did 6 in one Saturday afternoon. They also have a line of Combines and passenger cars that are easily modifiable.
What model decoder is in your Porter? You might not be happy with the functionality. If you can provide the model number that would help.
It might make more sense, especially in a small loco, to jettison the LGB decoder and get an all in one motor and sound decoder of more modern capability.
Could easily put in a top of the line units, or even a high capacity HO decoder like the Zimo that is even less than the TCS sound only decoder. You would get more benefits in sound, BEMF - linked sounds (sound responds to actual loads on the loco, not just the speed).
If you're coming out of SCALE 0, you know about .172 rail...and everyone went to .148 and smaller as the .172 was just too big.
Decide your scale, calculate rail size of .332" to the scale, and you will be amazed at how big it is. It is overpoweringly large.
I came out of 0, and no way shape or form was I going to use 9" rail. My railroad was built over 20 years ago, upper main is .250, lower and spurs are .215. And I use aluminum, with everything on-board radio/battery, and yes, once we ran a Shay throught two inched of muddy water at a friend's place when he flooded...and it ran and still does just fine.
.332 is a bugger to get a vertical bend into, and even difficult with a railbender to get horizontal bends. .250 and .215 aluminum curve by hand, both vertical and horizontal.
Does Sierra Valley still make nice wheelsets?
Look at Llagas and Sunset Valley for better profile rail and switches.
I still have all my LGB track..use it in the yard and engine facilities in the shed.
If you must do it outside, and use brass, use LGB as it weathers...Arrrggggghhhristo stays bright as a new penny almost forever and looks like...well....you get the idea.
Air operated switches when you can't reach manual control....raise the track up...mine is about 1500 feet, all elevated from one foot to five, with 150' of 4% grade in the middle.
Aluminum gives you about the best non-rusting tractive effort. Last night we pulled 25 cars up the 4% with one Shay, no wheel slip.
TOC
Greg Elmassian What model decoder is in your Porter?
What model decoder is in your Porter?
The Porter I ordered is the current production DCC/smoke equipped model. The locomotive's model number is 24771, but I haven't been able to discover what MTS board it comes with. The LGB manual available online is very scant on details. The locomotive should arrive this week and I'm hoping that the MTS board will have a part number on it to help with identification. Greg, what functionality problems should I be looking for with these MTS decoders?
There is plenty of room in the cab for some relatively large speakers. I tend to use TCS's flagship speaker in my smaller scae projects, but it's only about 1.1" in diameter. What are your guys' recommendations for larger speakers?
I spent about 8 hours on Saturday working on my loop. I was able to finish grading, dig the trench, lay the ballast, place the track, and put the decorative ballast on top. It was a lot of work, but I had a lot of fun doing it. I placed a bachmann Jackson Sharp car around the loop to see how my grading turned out. No movement on the areas that are supposed to be level and just a little movement on the 2.5% grades. I'm very happy with the results. Now I need to get that pole sander so I can get the rails nice and clean for my Porter's arrival.
My wife helped me do some rudimentary planning for the future structures. We laid out the rough plan for the townsite on the lower end of the line and the small mining operation on the higher end. The basic story is the line serves as transportation for the miners and for the ore. We don't really have room for a reduction mill or a smelter so these may have to be omitted details. I don't think this will be too big of an issue because most visitors won't realize that there's more to mining than just the hoisthouse and ore bin.
Thanks again for everyone's replies!
I have a web page that gives an overview of MTS system components and capabilities, the decoders are near the end of the page, see if this gives you some useful information:
http://www.elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=505&Itemid=614
Regards, Greg
Thanks, Greg! Very helpful.
I was thinking some more about adding a sound capable decoder and the smoke unit issue, when I realized that I had read that the smoke unit is always "on". I'm almost certain that this means the smoke unit isnt actually tied to a decoder function. I'm guessing it's directly connected to rail power separately from the decoder. If this is the case then it would be easy to just drop in my own sound decoder and remove the MTS decoder completely.
I have a 2 amp econami that I picked up a little while ago for a different project, but I might throw it in the Porter just to see. I'm not sure how the sound would stack up against a Wow decoder, but I've heard these Econamis are a step up from the factory installed tsunamis in my On30 locomotives.
Of course this will all depend on whether my assumption about the smoke unit is correct. I believe my Porter is arriving Saturday, so soon thereafter I hope to report back on my findings for future reference.
I've not played with the steam Tsunamis, but from what I'm hearing on the Soundtraxx Yahoo group, the Econamis are in many ways a decided improvement, especially with respect to motor control.
I recently installed an Econami in my Bachmann K-27, and was very impressed with it. I can't really compare the sound quality between it and the WowSound I put in my 0-4-0 Porter because the speakers are too different. (1" vs 3") Regardless, I was impressed with the quality of the Econami's sounds. The WowSound has a much wider selection of bells and whistles, but the Econami still gives you a decent number, though only a percentage of them are what I would describe as "narrow gauge-y." Very few 0-4-0 Porters had deep-throated 6-chime whistles.
Both the WowSound and Econami have very good, very smooth motor control right out of the gate.
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