Hi Folks! I'm new to G-scale model railroading. I'm having my backyard landscaped this spring and a G-scale railroad will be included. My question is this: Which is better? Battery operated remote control operation or electrically operated model railroading? I'm sure there must be signficant differences in performance and operation, but as a newbie to the hobby I'd love to get the pros and cons from an experienced community. Thanks for the help.
G-man,
The debate over power sources - analog (good ole track power with a power pack), track power with r/c (Aristo Craft Revolution), DCC (I can't speak on it), and battery r/c will lite up a board with all kinds of 'my way is better'n your way' discussion. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. Some will be more pertinant depending on where you live.
It would be my recommendation to acquire a copy of 'Garden Railway Basics' by Kevin Strong. He covers all the basics on each type of control, and will give you a mostly un biased perspective on topic. Once you have gotten the basice with out bias, you will be better prepared to ask more detailed questions regarding your particular circumstances.
Welcome to the hobby and please don't take it that I am avoiding the question, I would like to see you get straight forward information with as little jading as possible.
Bob C.
First, let me truly and proudly admit that I am an "Analog Dinosaur" (transformer pushing electrons down the rails). Secondly let me very quietly whisper in your ear, "the word BEST has caused many an 'internet black eye' on these pages." What is best for me may not be best for you. There are advantages and disadvantages to each and every method of garden railroading.
Analog: Advantage: Take it out of the box and it is ready to run and enjoy. No waiting for special order parts to arrive an modify the engine. Block switching (as is common in the smller scales) allows trains to run in opposite diredtions along the same track. Flip a switch or two and park a train at a siding to wait for the oncomming train to pass, just like twelve inch to the foot scale. Disadvantage: Horn sounds only a prepositioned magnet locations. If I should run upon a cat slumbering on the rails, I cannot honk the horn to move the cat.
I am a firm beleiver that "best" is how you enjoy the hobby, what fits into your budget, how profecient you are in making the modifications needed to enhance the engine. I would suggest looking up a club in your state and going to one of their open house runs to get a better idea of what is available and how well it will work for what you want to do. By all means, get the book mentioned above, but also have a look at what it does.
Since I have very obviously NOT answered your question of what is best, I should also tell you that on these pages, when we do get into arguments we keep it civil and are ladies and gentlemen about it, unlike what happens all too often on the page of the smaller scales. In these pages you will meet a wide array of folks, like Gregg, who I admire as a Wizzard of Electronics, and Vic, the master of G-Scale in a 3 foot square, and dozens more with outstanding skills and knowledge. Please do yourself a favor, ask as many questions as you like. Someone here has faced the same problem and found a solution. I onsider myself the Master of the Broken Golden Rules. Never place a nintey degree R1 curve inside a tunnel, (I did it). Never exceed a 3% grade, I have one line at 17%.
Having said all of that, ask your questions and get outside and play in the dirt. Welcome to the hobby.
Tom Trigg
(donning wizards hat)
(and thank you kindly Tom!)
I've done some analysis and written it down:
http://elmassian.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&Itemid=68
But go to my site and read the Beginners FAQs, etc.
There can be a "best" system for an individual, based on his goals and aspirations, but you may not have considered all the pieces of information to decide this.
This decision is not independent, it also relies on size of layout, operational style, climate, how many trains, etc.
Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
I changed over to battery power having experienced what mother nature required for track/train maintenance to keep the juice flowing. If your line is short and you have time to clean track and pickups then track power is for you. If not then consider battery power with its addition costs - throttle, receivers, batteries, chargers... I have four engines running on 1K of track so that much cleaning took up too much time plus I wanted to be able to hand a throttle to a kid and have them run trains.
My two cents,
Rex
There are alternative track materials that do not need "cleaning", which is normally meant to mean "removal of non-conductive oxidation".
I use stainless steel track and NEVER "clean" the track, I do wipe off debris before a run, 5 minutes for about 850' of track.
G-Man
Both Rex and Gregg have raised isues you will need to consider as you build your empire. Rex battles with snow and ice, while Gregg and I must battle the warm sun of San Diego. I would suggest you include in you decision matrix your local micro climate. If you deal much with snow, then battery power, I beleive, would give better operating time and of course the need for a snow plow.
Track cleaning: This is a given as we are outside in the dirt. Twigs, leaves, flower petals must be removed prior to any run. At times I have had to contend with K9 droppings and chicken deposits. More than once I've had to rescue an engine that lost the encounter with a sleeping chicken inside the tunnel. Cleaning for electrical conductivity is an entirely different creature. In the begining I used a dry wall sanding stick with a green scotts bright pad. I do have a small fleet of battery powered engines, a Goose that was scratch built by Vic that runs on 4 "AA" batteries, and about a dozen "Light Brite" engines that run on "C" cells. When launched, these guys tow around a car with green scour pads below to clean the rails. Almost every year Wallmart has "Light Brite" sets (engine/tender and 2 cars with some plastic track) in their christmas toy section. I wait till just over a week after the "after Christmas clearance mork downs", once they hit $20 I buy all they have left. These things are NOT designed for outdoor use and the rubber "O ring" on the drive wheels break off and the engine become usless. A quick spray paint and they make nice displays in a "city park". The cars make for some nice trackside structures.
There are basically three typs of rail. Gregg talked about Stainless Steel, non-corrosive very conductive of the electrons. I preffer brass myself. In the beginning I tried a mix of stainless, and three brands of brass. SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed aka Wife) declared her prefference for the LGB brass as it develops a great patina and she did not care for the silver streaks of stainless nor the forever shiney Atlas (I think it was) brass track. If you decide to go completely battery there is now a third option, "plastic" rails. I say plastic but it is some manmade polymer that is supposed to be very durable outside. SWMBO bought some before she realized it would not push electrons to the engine. I now forms the storage/display rack for my trains.
Rex has shared info on different ways to control the trains using rail delevered power. I would suggest that you maintain the ability deliver power via the rails. I have a few friends that visit for a train run, some are analog like mine, some are battery power, and one brings his power supply along so that we switch out so he can run his engines with his remote controls. He uses his cell phone to control up to three engines at a time.
Hope I've not confused the issues for you. Again, I suggest that you do a lot of reading, and visit as many layouts as possible to see what has been done.
I ran using track power for some seven years or more. Having brass track meant that it needed cleaning now and again - dependant on weather and season. Around three years ago I made three battery trailing cars (with Aristo Train Engineer Rx installed) and have mostly run battery power. I still have track only locos so maintain the need for both operating methods. Dual facility allows for visitors requirements with their locos.
The principal advantage of battery power has been, in my operations, the ability to run switching locos very slowly: track power can, I have found, been less reliable for switching purposes.
I guess it is all part of the learning that it needed with outdoor ops.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
G-man, excellent decision. Not because it's battery over track power, but because you're dipping your toes into the water with this hobby, and it's better to start in the simplest way possible. Money is a big consideration for most people, so bravo for being conservative. I've had little enjoyment with my layout since I over-complicated it at the beginning. I'm trying to work my way out of that mess.
Garden Railways magazine and the forum are truly great resources for you. You might also consider joining a local G scale club or simply visit a few outdoor railroads. You'll begin to see what's possible and what feels best to you if you decide to build you starter layout into something more.
Hi,
I'm relatively new to Garden Railway and five years ago I faced the same question you are asking. In our area we don't have an abundance of Garden Railroading enthusiasts to consult with. I know of only two other Garden Railway's besides mine, one is track powered with an excellent Bridgewerks transformer system, the other is battery operated with Remote Control using the Airwire 900system. Both work extremely well. I spoke with both operators at length. There are pros and cons to each system.
The track power operator has transformer power supplied to multiple locations around the layout through underground conduit installed before the layout landscape was done. He keeps his track clean with an LGB track cleaning Loco to ensure good power to the power pick-ups on his locos, tenders and rolling stock. He has installed jumpers across all track joints to ensure consistent power to the rails across the layout. He uses LGB Code 332 track. He can operate any locos right out of the box. Debris that falls on the track such as leaves, paper, etc, will stop the train as it interupts the flow of power from rail to power pick-up.
The Battery/R.C. system using Airwire 900 components also works very well, doesn't require multiple power/track connections, doesn't require track cleaning, no jumper wires across rail joints, and debris on the track won't stop the train if it doesn't derail. But, and this is where the expense comes in, all locos will require conversion from track power to battery/r.c. using whatever manufacturer's circuit boards you decide to go with. Batteries don't last forever either.
After looking at both options and doing alot of reading on the subject I based my decision on our local conditions and my skills with taking things apart and fixing them. We get a bit of winter here in Canada. Heavy frosts that will freeze any moisture in the ground cause frost heaving. Frost heaves move the track, move your bridges, tunnels and anything else sitting on the surface of the ground, all of which loosen rail connections. Thus the need for power jumpers across the rail joints for rail power. In our neighbourhood we have alot of trees, both evergreen and deciduous, so lots of leaves flying around in the fall. Snow in winter and frost on the rails are other sources of possible rail power problems if you run in winter. (Watching your locos plow snow is not much of a novelty here....a snow blower car is an asset, sure wish I had one). After seeing the amount of work involved with using track power in our climate both for installation and maintenance I opted for battery/r.c power. I still installed underground conduits but for landscape lighting, village lighting, water lines to water features, and air lines to my SVRR turnouts. I also spread four dump truck loads of 3/8 minus gravel to build up my layout and provide good drainage and reduce frost heaving. I went with the Airwire 900 system and I do all my own loco conversions. I'm sure Dave at Airwire could connect you with someone to do your conversions if you're not a 'jack of all trades / take it apart to figure out how it works' kind of person. There is good YouTube video on darn near any topic you want to learn. The Airwire manuals are excellent. (I have to re-read them every spring due to the grey factor).
I'm happy with my decision despite the added cost. I spend less time on track maintenance/installation. I can change my track layout when I dream up some other idea without major excavation work for track power wiring. I work on loco conversions when the snow is too deep to plow.
Again, with proper installation both systems work well. Read up on the topic and make your decision based on your needs and abilities, not necessarily on what others tell you. Welcome to the hobby!
Phill
I cross analog control with onboard battery. I enjoy the earlier large scale models, espicaly the old Kalamazoo 4-4-0 Americans. They suffer from poor electrical pickup, espicialy outdoors. I use a Onyx 5500mah NiMH battery in the tender with a common Tamiya style quick connector between the engine and the tender On the bottom of the tender there is the female side of the recharging jack. On the back of the tender is a micro double pole/double throw with center off toggle switch. The up position is to run, center off, down to recharge the battery via the jack on the bottom. There is no RC or speed control, the 7.2vt 6 cell battery gives a nice train speed, not to slow and not "Ballest scorching" passenger speed. The battery will run the old 4-4-0 for about 5 hours before slowing and requiring a 30 min recharge. This set up will work for most any single motor steam or diesel engine. I have installed it in LGB steam and diesel, Aristo Alco FA-1 and the little Kalamazoo American type. I just set everything on the track, flip the toggle switch, then sit on my deck and enjoy. I am free to talk to others, do yard work ect, and catch a glance of my train running thru the garden. Very relaxing! The battery pack was around $35 at the local Hobbytown and the charger was under $25. Very affordable. I can install either a simple RC or what the Brit's call a critter controler. Those have a little knob that can stick thru the top of the tender or diesel hood, disguised as a wood barrel, or other diesel detail. Turning that knob will vary the engine's speed. Those are around $35ish dollers. So also afforable and all avoiding the cost of RC and needing either RC for each engine, or Crest decoders for each one. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I started out 20+ years ago, doing research (before algore) and wanted a system reasonably priced, made in an English speaking country, and dead reliable.
I started with the Aus RCS stuff, still have it all, as do the vast majority of folks hereabouts, and we run it very regularly.
New stuff is RailLinx, and US RCS, of which I have two.
Stil have some locos with NiCads, still run just fine, everything else is NiMH.
I don't think we lost any batteries last night, and we were at it for over six hours.
You will not find a 787 on the railroad, full stop.
TOC
Curmudgeon You will not find a 787 on the railroad, full stop.
In case you haven't made the connection, the "787" reference is to Li-Ion battery technology, which has had rather famous instances recently of flare ups, including on Boeing's airplanes. I have the highest regard for Dave and his expertise in battery power, though I would suggest his reluctance to embrace the new battery technology is perhaps born of an overabundance of caution. (We don't call him "the old Curmudgeon" for nothing, and we wouldn't have him any other way.)
I switched over to Li-Ion batteries 7 years ago, after using pretty much every common battery chemistry going back to lead acid motorcyle headlight batteries. I've found them to be the most reliable, easy to use batteries out of the bunch. They pack a lot of capacity into a little space, so I can get 2 - 4 hour run times in a space less than half of NiMH and a third of NiCad batteries of similar capacity. This allows installations in much smaller locomotives, or more room for a larger speaker in a tender or similar.
The key with Li-Ion batteries is to use a charger intended specifically for those batteries. I bought the specific charger recommended by the retailer who sold me my batteries, so I knew they would be compatible. Also, buy packs which have built-in protection circuitry. This prevents overcharging and overdischarging.
The one key thing I like about the Li-Ion batteries is that they hold their charge long term. Some of my locos have battery packs permanently installed in them. I can charge them in the beginning of the season, and if I don't run them but once, they'll still have a charge the next season. The NiMH batteries I had previously used had to be charged the day before or they'd self-discharge. It made spontaneous running all but impossible.
After 7 years so far, and probably a dozen or so packs in circulation, I've only had one pack show signs of not holding a proper charge anymore. Again, that's a much better track record than with the older chemistries I've used. (My NiMH batteries seldom lasted more than a year or two.) There are other Lithium battery chemistries out there (Lithium polymer, Lithium Prismatic, and a few others). I have not played with those chemistries. Not for lack of desire, just for lack of need. Three hours run time from a battery pack the size of a deck of cards is pretty respectable. There's so far no need for me to invest in new chargers and infrastructure just to get a few more minutes run time out of a battery that's just a little smaller. Give me another 5 years when ectoplasmic fusion technology allows 10 hours run time in a space the size of a pack of gum.
Later,
K
Great discussion in light of GR's coming series on converting a loco to battery power. I have recognized the importance of "go-to" locomotive for those quick, 10 minute demonstration runs, and I have begun to intellectualize (fantasize?) about brining my '70's vintage LGB D-cell powerd "Kleine Dicke" back to life for sentimental reasons as well as to rediscover long-dormant modeling skills.
Anyway, thanks for letting me follow along!
- Eric
I went over to the dead rail society a couple years ago, first with my LGB 2095 diesel, then to my pair of old Kalamazoo 4-4-0's that I run with now. I use no RC control(to expensive and unneeded) as I just turn the train loose and enjoy. I use a single 6 cell Onyx(Hobbytown brand) RC car battery. They are a Nimh, 7.2vt, 5500mah battery. Good for over 5 hours of non stop running or over 7 hours of intermitten running on a single motor 4-4-0 with single bulb headlight. The LGB 2095 diesel (dual motor) was good for just over 3 hours of non stop running. Speed is nice sedate road speed, not to fast and not crawling along either. I just use a micro toggle switch to turn the power on and off. The batteries were $36 each and the charger was $20. Recharge time is 30-40min. The older Kalamazoo engines were known for power power pickup, this solves that issue. I do remove the power pickups, less drag and I am not back feeding the rails creating more drain on the battery. I also run a pair of small live steamers, which leave thier messes on the track, so no issues there either. Gone are the days of getting on my knees to scrub rails, deal with dead rail joiners or voltage drops causing train to slow down. Just do a quick patrol for leaves and branches, overgrowth from plants and any land mines from my dogs! Only power on my layout is for the building lights and turnout lanterns. The 4-4-0s have no sound or other electronics, if you have or add this, it will shorten run times accordingly. On my small layout the sound never fades away and thus gets on my nerves. So I do not use sound. I also have sound sensativity due to autism, so a quiet train is a happy train for me. I attached a short video of my special "Autism express" running on my small garden railway to give an idea of train speed on a single battery. They do make a "critter controler" that is popular in the UK for non RC engines. Its a small electronic circuit with a knob that you can make into a barrel, lantern, exhaust stack ect to disguise it on the model, gives you an off mode and variable speed control. I do not regret going to onboard battery, makes outdoor railroading so much more enjoyable. So does live steam but thats a whole nother ball game. Mike P.S. Click on the picture to go to the video.
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