Tom
I was trying to cover several points in my earlier post.
You have an good looking layout there and it will be an interesting time keeping it going.
Pete
Pete:
We considered a two-train operation but really don't have a good place to pass because the one long straight-a-way (on the trestle) had to have the rails too close together. Plus two trains means just that much more equipment investment and service. Remember, this operation is all-volunteer (two model RR guys and a camp artist) and that includes the labor and equipment. We had to limit the scope of the operation to what we could afford and what the space (and RC management) would allow. It is drawing lots of interest and that's encouraging to us.
A short note about using "We" and "I" in my replies. The "we" is not to act affected and is not "royal." There are two us us working the RR side of the project. I just happen the be the one doing the forum story. Lee Williams and I have worked together on this, each of us taking some speciality to ourselves (as in "I" built the trestle), but collaborating all the way. Both of us appreciate all the good suggestions from those (surprising how many!) who have been down this kind of a full-time display road before us.
Tom Beckett
One of the layouts I help maintain is using RR Concepts equipment to alternate two trains on a loop using a passing siding with a delay in the start up of the second train after the first has come to a stop. One of the loops has run without an electronic problem for approximately 2 years now. The second loop took longer to debug on its setup but it has been running without problem for nearly a year now. Both loops have gradual slow down and start up and have a timer for automatic start up of the system and shut down at the end of the day.
Because of the passing sidings, we operate the trains on each loop always in the same direction. We do have a significant number of left and right had turns so have not noticed any significant wear due to the single direction of operation.
Scheduled operating time is 8:00 AM - 10:00 PM, 7 days a week. We are using code 332 brass rail and have been replacing the curves on about an 18 - 24 month schedule. Straight track is lasting about 36 months.
The rolling stock all have metal wheels and the power units are oiled weekly with a grease application about every 6 weeks. Axles are replaced as the flanges become heavily worn. We do change out trains with the seasons.
We run USAT, Aristocraft, Bachmann, LGB and Hartland equipment. It has been a very pleasant surprise how well the Hartland 2-truck Birny has run. The other brands have also run well.
Jim:
i'm a bit senior myself and none of the timer stuff is high tech. I knew generally what I wanted to do for timing, went to my local lighting store, told them and they made good suggestions. I already had some experience with RR Concepts' hardware but talked to them before buying too. I found the slow-stop capacitor circuit searching the internet. Almost everything was nearly plug-and-play.
Yes, I do have a safety wire along the outside of the trestle and shelves. Where I constructed a deck addition to complete the return loop over the entry door, I installed 10" of plexiglass on the outside of the curve to prevent any trains from reaching the floor (or store customer's heads). Your suggestions based on your experience encourage me that I have made some wise decisions.
WP&YRRR: -thanks for the additional suggestions.
Hi there,
I haven't posted in a while because I've been busy but I decided to check for anything interesting. In terms of engines and/ or cars, I would go for a bachmann railtruck because it is very lite and probably not cause any cuts on your fingers. For something to pull cars, a bachmann 0-4-0T porter or 0-4-0 gas mechanical. These are also pretty lite, very low maintenance, can be lifted and placed on and off the track easily, and can handle the curves. For cars, get a few Bachmann lil'big hauler cars and some Hartland mini series cars. All these things are inexpensive, low maintenance, and fun.
Good luck!
HI TB,
Yes, you are correct, reversing the trains direction of travel only helps balance out the ware on the loco and all the car's wheels. Track ware remains the same. I remember removing long thin strips of brass laying along side of the rails on the curve tracks. This came off the edge of the rail head on the outside rail. Soon the outside rail was like a sharp knife. Remember these trains ran from about 10AM to 8 or 9PM, 7 days a week.
I am an old senior model railroader, and am not into the high tech stuff you talked about. I am new to this forum, and am doing my best to learn about it, and maybe help out some folks who install commercial, continues running train systems. I will stick with my slide dimmer switch to turn train on and off. This also is an emergency stop control. I hope you are installing a thin guard wire around the outside of the shelf, to keep the trains from falling off, to the floor, in the event of a derailment.
Good Luck,
Jim
I'll try to address your questions and add one of my own to you. Let's start there - you suggested reversing engine direction on a regular basis to lessen wear. I can see how that would even the wear on the train's wheels and flanges but you mentioned it would effect the sharpening of the track in the curves too. Wouldn't the wear force be towards the outside of the track circle no matter which way the train is traveling? It seems to me the rails, anyway, see the same wear forces going either direction. You have the experience so I will entertain a little more explanation how this works so I can address the problem the better I understand it.
We are running 5 foot diameter turns. That's the best we can do in the space allowed. I don't plan to run any 3 axle trucks/engine drivers and pull no more than 5-6 cars at a time. Currently we are alternating engines including LGB and USA Trains and I am pre-greasing and oiling before each month's planned use. As per Tom Trigg's suggestion, I have acquired an HLW engine and plan to put it in to service with some log cars.
I am using a RR Concepts "Station Master" unit to control the graduated slow start and a large electrolytic capacitor to effect slow stops. Actually, I could have used the Station Master to do both but it required some other additions or set-up I didn't want to use at this time. I was hoping to keep this system very simple to understand and operate.
I use a digital daily timer which I simply program to operate during Roaring Camp General Store open hours. The output from that timer is fed through an ICM 305/306" repeat cycle timer that can be programmed down to the minute for time to run and time to wait between runs. The one drawback to that timer is it only controls 1 amp. maximum so I had to follow its output with a relay to control my MRC train transformer. Some of these electronic choices may have not been the best but were adequate, easily available (some from my existing train supplies) and not too expensive.
I also have a remote control "panic stop" power cut-out for the store employee to use should some emergency occur as an additional safety factor.
Again, this whole project is a bit of an experiment and we will be watching to see what works, and lasts, as time goes by. If I didn't answer all your questions, please continue.
TB
TB,
I like that you have enough cars and engines to rotate every month. Be sure to change the direction of travel each time, this is like rotating the tires on your car. If your loco's are light, your track will hold up much longer. What diameter curve track are you using? When I started my train service business, I was hired by a chain of 28 steakhouse restaurants, that had a over-head track system, all with 5 foot diameter curve track. All the locations were running LGB 6 axle ALCO diesels, mostly White Pass road name. These heavy loco's really took a toll on the 5 foot curve track, and the loco's wheels. With good track, a loco would run 9 hours a day for a year or more, before I had to replace a motor block. With bad curve track, this was shortened to only about 6 months or so. The outside curve track rail would get as sharp as a knife, and cut a groove in the loco's wheels. The restaurant managers were so cheap, they would not want to spend the money to replace the track until the very last minute when nothing would run. When LGB went under, I switched to USA trains GP's or NW-2's. These worked good, but not as long as a LGB loco. They were much more kinder to the track also. One hint about USA diesels in commercial running. From factory, the USA loco's gears do not have much grease on them, and they started to squeak in about a month's time. I solved this by packing the ends of the gear box with lots of grease, where the brass worm gear from the motor engages the plastic axle gear's. I now do this to every new engine before I put it into service. USA recommends this at 500 hours of running time.
I like your idea of a timer to let the train rest and cool down. Can you buy a timer to do this, or did you make one? I have all my customers trains connected to a 110 volt outlet controlled by a slide dimmer switch. I keep the speed control set, and the train is turned on and off with the dimmer switch. This works well, but a timer would result in abrupt starts and stops. How did you set up the slow start and stop?
happy railroading,
Only time will tell as to what wear patterns we will get. We are using brass track and trying to stick with metal wheels. We are planning to rotate our engines and cars every month with other sets and we have timers set to alternate trains five minutes running and five minutes of rest rather than have a day of constant running and the extra wear that results. To protect the train gears we have graduated starts and stops. And we are running trains pretty slowly, if for nothing else to give everything a chance to adjust to the rails (we have mostly donated, used track we refurbished) and secondly to reduce the launch velocity should we have a derail.
Hopefully we have anticipated and addressed some problems and at least reduced or prolonged the wear that is inevitable. We will pay special attention to warnings given of things to come and appreciate the heads up.
A hobby shop in Tucson, Arizona had a ceiling-mounted G-scale train that ran around an oval measuring approximately 8 x 16 feet. They used stainless track, and after a couple years of operation the wheel flanges on the locomotive were worn into a razor-blade thin, dangerously sharp edge.
Thank you for the additional operating tips - especially as pertaining to track and wheel wear. We pretty much figured metal wheels would last longer and put some thick cork under the rails (on the decks anyway) to cut down on the sound and so far everything is reasonably quiet. Track is 332 brass. Even though we intend to rotate equipment every time we bring a train to the floor for lube service, thanks to your warning we will pay particular attention to sharpening flanges or other unusual wear to both wheels and track. We will also study all the suggestions as to engines and rotate some variety of makes there too.
Hello, I was in the G Scale Trains and Service business for 15 years, and am still installing overhead trains today in business locations. These trains run from 5 to 10 hours a day. Most installations use 5 foot diameter, code 332 brass track made by USA Trains. Nothing smaller, I do try to use 8 foot diameter if the room is big enough. I use USA diesels only, and pack the motor block with grease before I put the engine in service. The factory is very cheap with grease on the motor gears.
With heavy use, the wheels of the locomotive will get very thin, or get a grove cut in the middle. Like having a flange on both sides.. I tell my customers to reverse the engine, or train direction, every month to balance wheel ware. But most of the time they forget. Also, the outside rail of your curve track will get as sharp as a knife in a few years. Brass is a very soft metal. Stainless Steel track is more expensive, and I have no experience using that in commercial service. Plastic wheels will ware out fast based on the amount of running time. I changed out all my customers trains to metal wheels, and they complained about the noise. So, now back to plastic. You will never please everyone.
Any business must have a working second engine as a back-up, when a motor goes bad. I replace the entire motor block when a motor goes bad, no point trying to go cheap, and just replace the motor, as the wheels, pick-up sjoes etc are also bad if the motor is bad.
Good Luck, Jim
Something you might want to be aware of --
An elevated G-scale display train running around the ceiling in a local hobby shop was built with stainless steel track. The curves of that long oval caused the wheel flanges on the locomotives to be worn so thin that they became sharper than a razor blade.
They don't know if brass rail would have had the same effect on the wheels.
The displays I run are typically 1-3 day events, not the day after day running. I usually have 4 - 6 tracks running. I prefer USA & LGB simply because of the track shoes - spotless track is less critical. Single block aristo has also worked well - egg liners & little critters. The dual engine block aristo sometimes gets interesting if the track is not spotless - one set of trucks stops while the other pushes. Wiring the two together would get around that issue. I usually don't have time to stop trains and mess with track during a display. Good luck.
Gorgeous pix! As we were talking about your project, I got to thinking about stopping by. Now I know I’ll be stopping by soon.
Tom Trigg
Since I've opened the door for photos I'll include a few more even if the quality is a bit low,
The first is a shot of the 26 feet of trestles in my driveway outside my workshop prior to painting. Made from 1 x 6 white pine ripped to size and glued.
All the timers, delays and running controls are housed in a toolbox whiten is kept away from unauthorized users on one of the mezzanine-type decks.
The "mezzanine" over the front of the store was not wide enough to take a return loop so we added an extension. There is an additional cable to an overhead beam for support, deck signs for a 40 pound limit, and a plexiglass outer shield should anything decide to jump the track and attempt to dive on store customers below (not installed yet at this picture).
For a while we had to work around 4 huge plows on the back deck. Management allowed us to remove them. This portion of track is raised because the front deck is 3 inches higher than the back deck.
Yours truly installing track on the trestle. We had no easy way of supporting a curved portion so had to use a simple curved transition for one track to reach the deck. Nor did we have room to space the tracks so trains could run on both tracks at once. There are occasional tie-backs to the wall to prevent trestle tipping and there is a discreet catch-wire on the front edge to snag any derails.
Here is some of the artwork painted on 4 x 8 foot 1/8 inch masonite panels.
The three volunteers. Up front right is Lee Williams who spearheaded the project and talked RC into allowing it. Lee worked on all phases of the project as well as managing the store while this was going on. Next on the left is Debra Holmes who is Roaring Camp's artist. And bringing up the rear is me - trestles, track, electrics. My only connection to RC is I own a few shares of their stock.
Thanks for the continuing replies and please excuse the double post. I don't get enough practice on forums so am rusty. I'll cross my fingers about the photo.
Tom - I'll go for one photo now to give you an idea. This is a work-in-progress photo with an early test run. The store is so "busy" it is hard to get a clear shot. When you are there in person your mind can subconsciously filter out what you don't want to see. With a photo it's not as easy. I'm up on the deck in the upper left corner. More scenery has been added - large redwoods in the foreground and some buildings are yet to appear.
Cacole - Anything we run has to be by itself. Because of space constraints there is a close double set of tracks on the top of the trestle and trains cannot run side by side there. An eggliner (I have one) would be fun but I think it would be lost running alone.
dwb, vsmith - The trains here get a LOT of running time. Roaring Camp was actually the beneficiary of a very nice gift of TWO model Shays, painted to match the camp's Shays from the Diablo Pacific Short Line club who exhibited here a while back, but as I mentioned before, model Shays are supposed to be lubed pretty frequently. And then there's the problem of bringing them down to the ground to service - probably 3 times a week. It's too much risk. We may run them on special occasions but otherwise they are in glass display cases for now.
Its Roaring Camp, so you HAVE to have a Bmann 2 truck Shay or Climax, both will do good on the 5' curves.
Have fun with your trains
The Shay, and a FA/FB come to mine when your talking about the Santa Cruz and Big Trees RR ( I have ridden on ) I have both and the are runners.
Dave
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
I don't think you could really call it a locomotive, but something that would probably be a hit with children is an Eggliner occasionally running through the scene if you can figure out a way to make it intermittent.
I, for one, would not mind a few pix of your efforts to share our hobby. You are a volunteer group putting up a RR display that happens to be located in a commercial enterprise. So long as your commentary talks about how you did it and only give the location address for others to visit I doubt you would be violating the rules here. A number of others have posted pix in a similar situation without problems.
Tom, your suggestions were good and I've got my eye on a possible engine already. I just wanted to clear up that I wasn't asking for the impossible in case someone else was waiting to chime in with a reccomendation. I hope you are correct about how often we will have to lube because each time we have to take an engine down the steep built-in ladder at the store is a potential for an accident.
Tom, your suggestions were good and I've got my eye on a possible engine already. i just wanted to clear up that I wasn't asking for the impossible in case someone else was waiting to chime in with a reccomendation. I hope you are correct about how often we will have to lube because each time we have to take an engine down the steep built-in ladder at the store is a potential for an accident.
Tom B.
Was not trying to be obnoxious with the “maintenance free” comment. I do have one unit that seriously approaches that level of maintenance. A Bachman open side streetcar. She has run on an auto reversing circuit of about 50 foot in length, over a 14% grade, for over eight years for about two hours a week. Yes, I said fourteen percent grade, in fact there is a four-foot section of that grade where it approaches seventeen percent with a 2-1/2 ft diameter “S curve”. I fully expected the constant running on that kind of grade to kill the unit in short order and it was economically feasible to replace each year. She gets a half hour service every spring and continues to roll with ease. Translation: ½ hr service for 100 hours run time. Assuming a 12-hour business day that would translate to twice monthly service. However, you are running on 0% grade and clean climate control, so you could get away with only monthly service, I would think. My HLW units do much the same, but not on the grade to the top of the waterfalls. Much of their service time is spent cleaning dust and dirt, which you will not experience. I’m thinking you should be able to get away with a 5 minute lube monthly with a full service semi-annually on most anything in the smaller two axle unit range.
Tom: Thank you for your suggestions. I have some of the manufacturer's engines you mentioned on my personal layout but not enough to be considered a good cross-sampling of running capability - hence the request. I didn't ask for "maintenance-free" only "easy maintenance" because I know we will have to perform lubrication services on our equipment. I have a Bachman shay at home and its type of required service after 8 hours a day running is just too much effort for an overhead display maintained by volunteers. While I know of HLW and I have read good things about them, I have no personal experience with their products. I appreciate the tip and will look in to their line.
There were basically three (2 RC employees & one stockholder) of us that contributed to this project out of our pockets and personal time because we wanted to do something special for Roaring Camp's 50th year celebration. This is a well-run operating railroad park situated in an old-growth redwood forest. It is very popular with locals and visitors alike. Over the years, several Bay Area model railroad clubs have brought exhibits here at special events.
The volunteers worked both days at home pre-fabricating and nights on-site installing when the general store was closed to the public. Needless to say, we have both money and a lot of hours devoted to this display so appreciate any information that would mean any more investment for equipment be money well spent.
I still welcome any more suggestions from the wealth of collector knowledge out there. Recommendations for specific models of hardy engines, not just manufacture's lines, would help narrow the search.
Thanks again,
I’ve had great luck with LGB, HLW and Bachman engines running for years with little maintenance. Don’t think you will find much in the line of “maintenance free.” I would think that running in an indoor controlled environment as you describe on a 0.00% grades would extend the life of any unit selected. The history of logging in Calif. gives a very wide range of freedom in selecting motive power. Anything from “Retired mainline” unit to locally produced “rail truck motive power” is an acceptable choice. A large number of lumber lines used rail trucks, based on the Ford Model T trucks as work crew and fire response vehicles. I would suggest a look into the HLW line of prime power.
This last week I helped install a G-scale display at the Roaring Camp General Store in Felton, California. It is basically a dog-bone plan running around 3 sides of the store on the tops of shelves and a couple of mezzanine-type decks. It includes a custom-made 26 foot trestle to match the shelf height with the decks. The system has 5 foot diameter loops at each end on the decks and is double tracked across the trestle so we have no switches. The electric system is set up on two timers, day and minute, so the train can run automatically alternating 5 minutes on and 5 minutes at rest during store hours. It is also equipped to start up slowly and coast to a stop to be easy on the train gears.
Presently we are running using loaner engines and cars. What we would like is some advice on what recommendation of different engines (so we can have some variety from month-to-month) that would be the most reliable and easiest to maintain for such a running schedule. Roaring Camp is patterned after an old Santa Cruz mountains logging camp and has operating Shays for public rides but I don't think models of anything that complex with its required maintenance schedule would be a good choice for our display. And it doesn't have to be exclusively steam. Pretty much anything that moves gets attention - especially from children.
This was a volunteer project with the approval of the Roaring Camp owners but I haven't included a photograph because Roaring Camp is a commercial venture.
Thanks for any suggestions. Remember, 5 foot diameter. Smaller, sturdy-running easy-maintenance engines needed. We are not running many cars with them either.
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