After incorporating 9 stainless steel Aristocraft wide radius switches into my backyard layout, I found that my Aristo Heavyweight coaches were derailing at them. After studying various blogs, I found one from Tom Weaver (6-29-10) on the Aristocraft forum that pointed out several improvements (6 in all) that could be made to them. I pulled up all the switches and reworked every one. (P.S. Tom, it took a lot more time than 15 Min. each.) Now the railroad is back together and the Heavyweights still derail at the frog.
I have now checked the switches with my Kadee G scale track gauge. I find that the distance between rails is too narrow at the frog forcing the wheels up on the top of the frog and then off the track! This seems to be consistent on all switches, some worse than others. SO NOW WHAT?
The only thought I have is to cut the outside tie plates off the outer rails and bend the rail out to meet code. Does anyone have a better idea? I am very disappointed that Aristocraft could not get this very important dimension correct in manufacture.
Tom
I saw this post on the Aristo forum.
I have about 15 or 20 WR switches. The gauge is tight on many of them.
But I want to address your measuring, the Kadee gauge is not good enough, you should buy the $10 Aristo gauge. If you want to measure back to back, you should buy a cheap digital vernier caliper.
More info on my web site:
http://www.elmassian.com/trains-mainmenu-27/track-mainmenu-93/track-and-wheel-standards-mainmenu-95
I know there is a lot of information on that page, but at least scroll down to where I review the Kadee and the Aristo gauges.
Regards, Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
Greg: Wow, I would have thought that the Kadee was superior! I respect your input and will purchase an Aristo gauge. I hope your website shows the proper wheel to wheel distance since I set all my freight car metal wheels to the Kadee prior to mounting them. I still haven't figured out how to even get the Heavyweight trucks apart.
In terms of back to back spacing, the most critical measurement through a turnout, instead of measuring the back to back or the gage, it measures the flange to flange, which depends on flange contour and the way the flanges fits into the two notches. It's a very poor way to measure this.
The Aristo gauge measures back to back minimum and maximum.
The wheels on the heavyweights... I though you could pry the wheel sets out.
Read my page on standards, and where I review the Kadee and Aristo gauges:
You might search my pages under "rolling stock"... "aristo"... then the heavyweights...
First replace the plastic frog with the new one available direct from Airistocraft. About $1 each. Second if they are the three axle heavyweight trucks, remove the center axles and they will run far smoother. (Same is true of 3 axle heavyweights in HO scale!). Finally regauge your wheels just to be sure.
You only need to replace the frog if the plastic part of the frog is higher than the 2 short rails that connect to it. The updated frog has been production for a while now.
There's a lot more to do, and in a different order.
If you gauge your wheels properly, be prepared to shim the guardrails..
Lastly, Aristo heavyweights will run through the switches just fine, there are some tips on the HWs that should be followed first. I have NEVER seen anyone who was forced to remove the center axle... normally it's a lubrication issue or a trackwork issue.
Just finished a long thread on MLS where everyone was advising to remove center axle... did not help, it was a trackwork issue.
See my site on WR switches to get all the tips and techniques, gathered over a number of years and direct experience.
Not trying to start a war, but there's a lot more to it.
I have run both my streamline and heavyweights separetly and all together ( 11 ) with no problems The only change I made was to repace the frog's and regage most of the wheels I have run at a scale speed of 85MPH with out incident.
Dave
BTW all of my trains run thru at least 3 of my 4 switchs
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
Thanks to all for your comments and advice on my wide radius switch issues. I purchased an Aristocraft gauge and investigated the switches using it. After all my efforts on improving these switches, I discovered that the real problem was that the rail spacing between the stock rails and the point closure rails (two short rails meeting the back of the frog) was too narrow. This involved removing the switches off the ground, disassembling the point closure rails and grinding the BACK of the rails where they meet the frog. This is no small task with stainless rails! I tried grinding the front of the rails with a tungsten carbide Dremel bit but one $9 bit per switch was too expensive. My bench grinder finally got the job done. It is amazing that a manufacturer would get this critical dimension wrong. My heavyweights AND freight cars were riding up on the point where the point closure rail met the point. This along with the need to modify the NEW frogs (top higher than adjacent rails) that Aristo made my buy and pay shipping for is discouraging. I still have several more switches to modify but so far those that are completed have performed well.
I had a lot of the same problems.
I also found that Aristo wheel set are also way out of spec.
I regauged the wheel sets. I used a caliper to measure between the rails and use that measurement to the rail side of the flange.
Then I also found that there is a lot of slop between the wheel set and the truck frames. I found some small washers and placed them on the wheel axle points 1 to 3 on each side of the wheel set.
That took a lot of the slop out.
I'm in exactly the same boat (or on the same ss aristocraft train track, would be a more appropriate metaphor).
My two-axle heavyweights derail every single time; my three-axles derail every single time.
My heavy three-truck shay climbs over whatever the impediment is and goes along.
I need to really figure out what the heck is going on at the point of contact where the derailment activity starts, but what I know for sure so far is that two or three axles make no difference.
Very frustrating.
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
Use the Aristocraft gauge to check the various dimensions of the switch especially the width between the rails. Also check the flange to flange spacing on the wheels. I received a separate e-mail off of the forum mentioning lubricating the points where the truck frames contact the bottom of the car. A product called Slipit was recommended for this. They are in NY and you can order on-line. I have not tried this yet although I bought some. This is supposed to be a one-time application to greatly improve the truck movement as it swivels.
I made truck/wheel back to back gauge by using a chunck of 1X2 with two raps of duck tape cost $0.00 this has worked well. one end has 1 less rap and serves as the minamum distance the other end is the max spaceing. ALL of my rolling that is in use has been checked and adjusted ( as needed ). I only have derail's when I go to fast or am not paying attenion to running train's. The last derail i had was jun 15 2011. that one cost me one B-mann 2-8-0 when it slamed into the derailed cars. ( Burned cuircut board ) That was also the last time I ran any train's, So now i am ready, but the leaves have fallen and I can't find RR.
NOW WHAT? And the answer might be.....?
Personally, I'm still going to try to salvage my switches, but I thought I might share with you the following:
I talked to a couple of old-timers at our garden railway society, and it turns out, we had the same switches on the museum layout and after many attempts to get the Aristo switches to work adequately and consistently over time, including trying many of the suggestions here listed in this forum, decided on the NOW WHAT?
They replaced them with "good ole reliable" LGB switches.
Well then.
I am trying to picture the scene. A three truck shay pulling three axle, heavyweight coaches. Which railway ran narrow gauge heavyweight coaches behind a Shay?
Maybe Aristo switches have 'logic control' like some computers...
Mick
Chief Operating Officer
Northern Timber Company - Mt Beenak
Mt Beenak I am trying to picture the scene. A three truck shay pulling three axle, heavyweight coaches. Which railway ran narrow gauge heavyweight coaches behind a Shay? Maybe Aristo switches have 'logic control' like some computers...
Ha! Ha! Actually.....ummm.....it's gold miners giving their fancy relatives from back east a tour of the back-country, and they just happened to have a couple of abandoned heavyweights laying around? Okay, maybe NOT. To tell you the truth if you want to talk about the "logic" of this goofy situation, it bothers me a lot more that the Shay is grotesquely oversized at 1:20 compared to the 1:29 heavyweights!?
No, seriously, I'm testing my newly-laid track and curves with the longest and most difficult pieces of equipment I have to make sure the radii work without looking toy-like and to make sure the switches work....as you can see I discovered in addition that there's a bit of a clearance issue under the porch fascia (cured).
I'm now testing the Alco PA-1 and B-1 pulling five two- and three-axle heavyweights, which was something, while not very common over a long period of time, that did happen on several old prototype lines. (We were talking in another thread here about how to couple the heavyweights closely together so the membranes touch and passengers can get from one car to another without jumping like one of your down-under Kangaroos from one platform to the next.)
So far, so good, EXCEPT, as this discussion here indicates, the Aristo switches are messed up.
It's interesting how this thread is starting to drift off the subject. In regard to the LGB switches, I have heard someone else say that they are superior. Do they make a stainless steel switch? Regardless, discarding all my switches and buying new should be a last resort. Next summer's garden railroad season should let me know if I have really solved my problem.
'Point' taken. Back on topic. Has any one challenged Aristo to make good on these obviously flawed turnouts? Has anyone sent them back under warranty? They obviously do not do the job for which they were intended.
Indeed back on topic, time to re-rail, thank you....I talked to Mark at Silver State Trains, who has a lot of experience, while I was making an unrelated purchase and just for fun I asked him if the brass Aristo wide-radius switches were any better than the stainless steel and he said flat out NO.
So if you're thinking maybe the brass switches are any better, like I was thinking maybe, forget it.
This weekend I'm going to try to "fix" my worst switch...I'll let you know how it goes.
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about Aristo's 5' radius (10' diameter) switches, or their larger #6 switches?
Later,
K
I'm not sure about everyone else but since I started this topic, my switches are what Aristo calls wide radius switches which are 10' diameter. They are stainless steel and purchased at different times. I believe they are all of the latest design except perhaps for the deeper frog flange.
Okay gentlemen, I seemed to have "fixed" my "wide-radius" Aristo-craft stainless steel switch. Took ten minutes. I used my dremel on low-speed to deepen the flanges grooves in the frog and I used it also to carefully shave down the frog to the level of the tops of the rails...now my PA and PB go through this particular switch just fine. For now.
The bigger problem is that I didn't really do my due diligence before ending up with about a dozen of these switches.
First of all, they ain't "wide-radius"; they are 10-foot diameter, not 10-foot radius. MY BAD. I guess when Aristo says "wide radius" they mean it isn't a four-foot 48" radius. Great. I was reading wide radius as meaning NOT a four- or five-foot radius, but a ten-foot radius like everyone else seems to talk about radius. I saw "wide radius" and "10 foot" and jumped to a conclusion that I didn't appreciate until I had the switch in use and saw my PA and PB going several inches off the center of the track as it made it through the turn in a very bad-looking toy-like manner. In short, it looks stupid.
It wasn't until Kevin asked which switches we were talking about, the wide-radius or the #6 switches, that the difference became fully apparent to me....and, secondly, the differences in the construction of the switches became apparent. My #6 switches (which fortunately I am using on the two switches down the mainline from the trouble "wide-radius" switch) are made completely of stainless steel and have no PLASTIC frogs and the flange grooves are plenty deep enough and parts of the frog aren't higher than the rest of the rails in the switch.
Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm happy to have a working switch now, and my New Years resolutions are to: (1) do a much better job of testing things out before buying a lot of stuff, (2) never try to create tight turns anywhere on my layout unless it is in a hidden area where no one will see the toy-like look, and (3) keep my work areas more organized and less cluttered. (Number three has nothing to do with the switches, but I thought I'd throw that in anyway.)
If you or anyone you know wants to trade three wide-radius switches for one #6 switch, please let me know. Seriously.
I feel your pain, and sorry I cannot help. But can I offer a word of advice. Trackwork in hidden or hard to reach areas must be wider radius and equal or better quality than up front, because maintenance is usually harder in these areas. Learn from my mistake!
Your #6 is not made completely of SS, the frog is made of cheap cast pot metal with a weird plating.
The #6 has it's own problems, and is actually harder to fix than the WR switches. Unless you are running all LGB, get the frog insert from Aristo or Train-Li.
I have extensive pages on both switches on my site under "Track & Switches".
See the typical wear pattern cause by sloppy flangeway width and tight gauge:
I have been following this and what Greg said is quite correct, I have five original brass wide radius (aka ten foot diameter) that have been installed fourteen years; and I have four SS wide radius switches that have been installed for at least four years with very little problems after replacing the frogs.
Reciently I decided to run a aritso Heavy weight combine (4 axle) for the first time, and I had consistant problems on one SS switch. I checked the gauging of the heavyweight and found it narrow on the offending axle. I used Aristocraft's gauge. After adjusting the axle to spec the problem was worse. I watched carefully as the car rolled through the frog and it did indeed climb the frog point. So I got my Dremel out and trimmed the frog down; but I noticed that balast dust had become lodged between the plastic frog and the short rail. The tapered point of the short rail stuck out and was catching the flange causing the wheel to climb out of the frog. I took dremel back out, and tapered off the point of the short rail similar to the shape of the original brass short rail. Greg has a good picture of that.
As Greg pointed out the switch gauge is narrow there. Since it is fairly close to being in gauge I may just dress the inside edge of the curved outside rail to get it back in tolerance as well.
The brass rails all seem to be in tolerance as far as the gauge is (of course the wing rail gap is wide)
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month