Yes Greg, you are once again correct. You are very astute and seem to know more about track than you give yourself credit for. Ties (or "sleepers") are a very important part of track structure. The provide a solid foundation on which the train is expected to run, but yet need to flex just enough to cushion the train and prevent the track from breaking. Ties hold the track in gauge and restrain the internal forces of the rail. On a high speed line the ties even provide aerodynamic value to the train. A broken tie or failed rail restraint, be it spikes or clips, is a fact of life. Normally a failed tie or restraint here or there is not a problem, but if the failures are too close together or too many on one section of track, then you get what you see in the third photo as well as rail breaks. This is where your FRA friend has a job, he determines if there are enough bad sections to pass or fail a rail line- a very important safety job indeed. As a crude rule of thumb if 3 or more ties in a row are bad, then they must be replaced. Any more than 3 then the rail is subject to releasing it's tension at that point. This is particularly true when replacing ties, never remove too many on one stretch or the supervisor and tamper operator will have you for lunch. You can do this experiment yourself; take a dry piece of spaghetti and push on it lengthwise until it snaps. Now put the spaghetti inside a straw and repeat the experiment. You will see that the spaghetti inside the straw is able to take much more tension before it breaks because the walls of the straw are keeping the forces inside of it more or less straight. But unlike railroad track, you can still eat the broken spaghetti. Imagine the rows of spikes on each side of the rail as the walls of a straw and the ribbon of rail as the spaghetti. Tangent or curved track makes no difference, when the tension is released is simply finds the weakest point wherever it may be. Generaly however, curves use more restraints in the form of rail clips and other devices to prevent such a thing from happening. It is far easier to repair bad tangent than a bad curve. Not all ties are the same, there are several sizes to choose from taking into consideration both cost and expected tonnage. This is true for both concrete and wood. Rail, as most are already aware of, also comes in different sizes for different applications. Imagine an industrial spur carrying one or two trains a week being built with concrete ties and 155# rail- it would last forever. Imagine giving the bean counters in the Emerald Tower the price tag for that and see how quickly you will be laying the spur down with wood ties and 90# rail. Track is rehabilitated after it's so worn out there is no other choice, or when tonnage as increased to the point where it is economicaly viable to upgrade the track.
Yes Greg, you are once again correct. You are very astute and seem to know more about track than you give yourself credit for.
Ties (or "sleepers") are a very important part of track structure. The provide a solid foundation on which the train is expected to run, but yet need to flex just enough to cushion the train and prevent the track from breaking. Ties hold the track in gauge and restrain the internal forces of the rail. On a high speed line the ties even provide aerodynamic value to the train. A broken tie or failed rail restraint, be it spikes or clips, is a fact of life. Normally a failed tie or restraint here or there is not a problem, but if the failures are too close together or too many on one section of track, then you get what you see in the third photo as well as rail breaks. This is where your FRA friend has a job, he determines if there are enough bad sections to pass or fail a rail line- a very important safety job indeed. As a crude rule of thumb if 3 or more ties in a row are bad, then they must be replaced. Any more than 3 then the rail is subject to releasing it's tension at that point. This is particularly true when replacing ties, never remove too many on one stretch or the supervisor and tamper operator will have you for lunch.
You can do this experiment yourself; take a dry piece of spaghetti and push on it lengthwise until it snaps. Now put the spaghetti inside a straw and repeat the experiment. You will see that the spaghetti inside the straw is able to take much more tension before it breaks because the walls of the straw are keeping the forces inside of it more or less straight. But unlike railroad track, you can still eat the broken spaghetti. Imagine the rows of spikes on each side of the rail as the walls of a straw and the ribbon of rail as the spaghetti. Tangent or curved track makes no difference, when the tension is released is simply finds the weakest point wherever it may be. Generaly however, curves use more restraints in the form of rail clips and other devices to prevent such a thing from happening. It is far easier to repair bad tangent than a bad curve.
Not all ties are the same, there are several sizes to choose from taking into consideration both cost and expected tonnage. This is true for both concrete and wood. Rail, as most are already aware of, also comes in different sizes for different applications. Imagine an industrial spur carrying one or two trains a week being built with concrete ties and 155# rail- it would last forever. Imagine giving the bean counters in the Emerald Tower the price tag for that and see how quickly you will be laying the spur down with wood ties and 90# rail. Track is rehabilitated after it's so worn out there is no other choice, or when tonnage as increased to the point where it is economicaly viable to upgrade the track.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
Again very interesting.
Can you expound on how damaged dies contribute to failure even on tangent track? Is it simply a lack of proper constraint?
Thanks, Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
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It's easy to understand, yet hard to explain. You seem to have a correct understanding of the dynamics of thermal management. Look at track, there are no gaps, the rail is welding through it's entire length including at the frogs of switches. If you had expansion gaps, then in the winter they would pull apart leaving huge bumps in the rail that will cause rail and wheel damage as well as destruction of cargo. Gaps can and do push off to the sides to relieve too much thermal expansion leaving the track out of gauge and could cause derailments. The balance is a bit of math, bit of guess work, and a bit of voodoo. The rail buckling due to thermal activity usually happens either on new track where the formulas have not been field tested yet, or on very old track where the metal in the rails is just given up the ghost due to age. Too much internal pressures will cause the rail to buckle, too much tension can cause it to snap. Rail does not expand nor contract into anything, the forces are contained within the rail itself. Looking at the three pictures posted above, the first looks to be a standard freight track with wood ties. It's old and you can see the rot in the center of some of the ties as well as the badly fouled ballast. Without proper drainage, the ties will rot faster than expected and pull the spikes and tie plates apart. This track leads into a yard or other siding, it's not clear, but it's a heavy traffic area and using the analogy of the table cloth you can see how the rails could have been stretched over time due to the constant pushing actions of the trains especialy during braking- which is what I suspect happens a lot here. This track evidently has given good service for many years without issue- judging by the fact that the ballast bed has been undisturbed by any recent tamping or regulation- yet there is still evidence of new ties here and there showing that some maintenance has been done to preserve the track- although done on the cheap. The track has buckled at it's weakest point- these things happen. Call out the rail gang and cut some rail out and re-weld, then tamp and that section of track should be good for another 5 years. The second photo is concrete metro rail, clearly in a very high traffic area. You can see this in the extensive chips and pits on the rail heads, and again the ballast bed is poor. The ballast has poor profile and it's fouled. The rail has reached structural failure, notice the break in the right rail. This rail is either very old or has had excessive tonnage and has reached the end of it's service life. Replacement of the rail and rehabilitation of the ballast bed is recommended, but the railroad will probably just try to fix it to get by for another few months. The rail gangs love this sort of thing because it keeps them working. The third photo is of a little used spur line or industrial lead. Notice the mainline track to the left is in excellent condition and has not experienced buckling even though it is in the same geographical location as the branch, is on a curve, and clearly handles far more traffic. The rails, ties and ballast are disgusting- the ballast is so fouled as to be indistinguishable from the Earth, and the rails are worn down to a flat head. The choices here are economic, the track should be rehabilitated, but the cost would be prohibitive if there is not enough traffic to justify it. I would imagine that the ties are almost totally rotted away and there are sections where 3 or more ties in a row are providing no support at all to the rails. Almost certainly the repair will consist of replacing every 4th or 5th tie, pushing the rail back into something resembling tangent using a small tamper and calling it a day at that point. This is a good example of the track just needing to be "good enough" and not exactly correct. In none of those example can I say that thermal changes in the rail alone is responsible for the failures. Thermal thresholds were exceeded due to failure of other track structures, notably tie failures and metal fatigue. It's not a perfect world, track requires good materials and a good maintenance program in order to give maximum service life. Neglect and improper repairs or maintenence results in failure 100% of the time.
It's easy to understand, yet hard to explain. You seem to have a correct understanding of the dynamics of thermal management. Look at track, there are no gaps, the rail is welding through it's entire length including at the frogs of switches. If you had expansion gaps, then in the winter they would pull apart leaving huge bumps in the rail that will cause rail and wheel damage as well as destruction of cargo. Gaps can and do push off to the sides to relieve too much thermal expansion leaving the track out of gauge and could cause derailments. The balance is a bit of math, bit of guess work, and a bit of voodoo. The rail buckling due to thermal activity usually happens either on new track where the formulas have not been field tested yet, or on very old track where the metal in the rails is just given up the ghost due to age. Too much internal pressures will cause the rail to buckle, too much tension can cause it to snap. Rail does not expand nor contract into anything, the forces are contained within the rail itself.
Looking at the three pictures posted above, the first looks to be a standard freight track with wood ties. It's old and you can see the rot in the center of some of the ties as well as the badly fouled ballast. Without proper drainage, the ties will rot faster than expected and pull the spikes and tie plates apart. This track leads into a yard or other siding, it's not clear, but it's a heavy traffic area and using the analogy of the table cloth you can see how the rails could have been stretched over time due to the constant pushing actions of the trains especialy during braking- which is what I suspect happens a lot here. This track evidently has given good service for many years without issue- judging by the fact that the ballast bed has been undisturbed by any recent tamping or regulation- yet there is still evidence of new ties here and there showing that some maintenance has been done to preserve the track- although done on the cheap. The track has buckled at it's weakest point- these things happen. Call out the rail gang and cut some rail out and re-weld, then tamp and that section of track should be good for another 5 years.
The second photo is concrete metro rail, clearly in a very high traffic area. You can see this in the extensive chips and pits on the rail heads, and again the ballast bed is poor. The ballast has poor profile and it's fouled. The rail has reached structural failure, notice the break in the right rail. This rail is either very old or has had excessive tonnage and has reached the end of it's service life. Replacement of the rail and rehabilitation of the ballast bed is recommended, but the railroad will probably just try to fix it to get by for another few months. The rail gangs love this sort of thing because it keeps them working.
The third photo is of a little used spur line or industrial lead. Notice the mainline track to the left is in excellent condition and has not experienced buckling even though it is in the same geographical location as the branch, is on a curve, and clearly handles far more traffic. The rails, ties and ballast are disgusting- the ballast is so fouled as to be indistinguishable from the Earth, and the rails are worn down to a flat head. The choices here are economic, the track should be rehabilitated, but the cost would be prohibitive if there is not enough traffic to justify it. I would imagine that the ties are almost totally rotted away and there are sections where 3 or more ties in a row are providing no support at all to the rails. Almost certainly the repair will consist of replacing every 4th or 5th tie, pushing the rail back into something resembling tangent using a small tamper and calling it a day at that point. This is a good example of the track just needing to be "good enough" and not exactly correct.
In none of those example can I say that thermal changes in the rail alone is responsible for the failures. Thermal thresholds were exceeded due to failure of other track structures, notably tie failures and metal fatigue. It's not a perfect world, track requires good materials and a good maintenance program in order to give maximum service life. Neglect and improper repairs or maintenence results in failure 100% of the time.
Great stuff, and you obviously know the subject.
If you don't mind, would like to continue the discussion and understand a few points.
First, I know about the "neutral" temperature, and the formulas, my friend told me these things.
A question: when rail is laid, at the "neutral" temperature, are there any gaps between sections of rail?
One thing you SEEM to be saying is that, within certain parameters, the rail does not change length, because it is held in compression when getting warmer, likewise tension when getting cooler.
This seems simple if you have gaps to expand "into". It also seems simple for cooling rail to open gaps, but both situations imply rail movement.
Can you amplify on this?
Greg, I have a degree in Track Structure Engineering and Design from the University of Wisconsin, and I work as a consultant for track structure repair, mostly for Amtrak in the NE corridor, but also for other metros (which is my specialty) such a CALTRAIN, PATH, SEPTA and freights. I spent most of last summer in CA, OR, WA, ID, WI, KS and SD working with the BNSF on the rehabilitation of their mainline. Most of my time, however, is spent on the NE corridor with metro systems. Rail goes under compression and tension when it heats/cools- it does not expand in length because it cannot do so by design. Rail that is improperly cut too long will buckle as the thermal changes overwhelm the internal forces of the steel, hence the results in the photos posted above. Rail movement through thermal dynamics takes place by the rail moving slightly along the tie plates, not laterally against the ties, however the brunt of the thermal changes are designed to take place within the structure of the steel in the form of internal pressure. Ballast has some structural strength in lateral hold, but it is far more important as a foundation under the track and for drainage. The high speed lines use far less ballast in the tie cribs than freights, yet both hold the track. Ballast is a deceptively complex issue in it's own right, but it can't be looked at without thinking about the ties and the attributes of the entire track structure. Rail is laid down at what is called a "neutral" temperature where the compression of the rail is calculated to a certain psi in a given region or applications. This temperature is based on a number of issues, but it is designed to allow the rail to maintain a more or less constant internal pressure throughout it's life. Rail that is under too much pressure will distort, not enough pressure and it will snap. Rail clamps are used to mitigate the rail being pushed by the train (re; my previous example of the table cloth) and they are found in such places as curves, high traffic areas, or where the direction of traffic is mostly in one direction (such as on a track where full loads will be going out of a coal yard but not where mostly empties are coming in).
Greg, I have a degree in Track Structure Engineering and Design from the University of Wisconsin, and I work as a consultant for track structure repair, mostly for Amtrak in the NE corridor, but also for other metros (which is my specialty) such a CALTRAIN, PATH, SEPTA and freights. I spent most of last summer in CA, OR, WA, ID, WI, KS and SD working with the BNSF on the rehabilitation of their mainline. Most of my time, however, is spent on the NE corridor with metro systems.
Rail goes under compression and tension when it heats/cools- it does not expand in length because it cannot do so by design. Rail that is improperly cut too long will buckle as the thermal changes overwhelm the internal forces of the steel, hence the results in the photos posted above. Rail movement through thermal dynamics takes place by the rail moving slightly along the tie plates, not laterally against the ties, however the brunt of the thermal changes are designed to take place within the structure of the steel in the form of internal pressure. Ballast has some structural strength in lateral hold, but it is far more important as a foundation under the track and for drainage. The high speed lines use far less ballast in the tie cribs than freights, yet both hold the track. Ballast is a deceptively complex issue in it's own right, but it can't be looked at without thinking about the ties and the attributes of the entire track structure. Rail is laid down at what is called a "neutral" temperature where the compression of the rail is calculated to a certain psi in a given region or applications. This temperature is based on a number of issues, but it is designed to allow the rail to maintain a more or less constant internal pressure throughout it's life. Rail that is under too much pressure will distort, not enough pressure and it will snap. Rail clamps are used to mitigate the rail being pushed by the train (re; my previous example of the table cloth) and they are found in such places as curves, high traffic areas, or where the direction of traffic is mostly in one direction (such as on a track where full loads will be going out of a coal yard but not where mostly empties are coming in).
The real world is not perfect, rail can and does fail and geometry goes out of whack often. Settling occurs and wash-outs and other damage happens, that is why rail gangs have jobs. Bad repairs or installations happen- that is why I have a job. Far more track issues arise because of the movement of tonnage over the track and the resultant stresses that causes than by thermal changes. The myth is that the rail "floats" in order to compensate for thermal changes, this is not true. In the modeling realm the track usually buckles not because of the rigidity of the ties, but because the rails are affixed too tightly to them and the rail cannot slide within the tie plates. But it's apples to oranges, one million tons of prototype rail has decidedly different physics than twenty pounds of model brass track- but the basic idea is the same.
Yes, in some places 3 or 4 inches is very wide and movement on that order will cause serious problems. Springfield MA station has as little as 1/4" leeway between trains in some places, mostly at the entrance to the platforms. Trains do sideswipe each other there and frequent cross-level adjustments are required. 1/4" at the track can be 8 or more inches at the top of the train. Many metro systems are very tight, the PATH tunnels under the Hudson from Jersey City to NYC are an example, as well as most station platform areas on just about any metro you care to name. Frieghts are more forgiving, but not by much. Track is either right or it's not. Freights generaly have a track tolerance of 1/4", Metros about 1/8". Once again, not a perfect world and sometimes what you have on the ground is so far off the drawings that you have to make it the best you can, but even those situations have to be thought through for clearances. We aren't even discussing clearances for catenary here, that is a whole other can of worms.
I could send you a CD with all the formulas and information we use to lay down and repair track in the real world. I am not making this up off the top of my head, and all due respect to the FRA inspector. The formulas and explanations take up far too much space to post on a forum and I really don't expect anybody to believe me just on my word.
One thing that is common among all hobbies, is that there are always some folks who are convinced that "X" is bad and "Z" is the best (or only) way to go. In large scale, you'll see this happen with rail, track power, battery power, different types of control systems, etc, etc.
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle. Most things work well in certain situations and less well in others.
Tangerine:
I have a friend that worked as a track inspector and the FRA for 30 years. He is in violent disagreement with what you are saying.
First of all, if you think that nothing moves with the rail expands you are in serious denial, by simple physics, the rail HAS to move since it grows in length.
Second, a fundamental concept is that the ballast serves to lock the motion of the ties, to local, and distributed movement, in conjunction with the rail being anchored at regular intervals (with rail anchors).
Doing this distributes the expansion and contraction over the entire length of the track, as opposed to the mistake many modelers make.
Rails moving 3 or 4 inches would cause prototypes to sideswipe? Think about it, you really believe that there is only 3 or 4 inches of clearance to begin with?
Talk to a person who has really worked on railroad track, and you will learn how it is done. In many cases, the prototype method can be scaled down to our models.
It is NOT the only way to make it work, but here, we are talking prototype.
I'll gladly get you in touch with my friend who can better explain. I had all kinds of misconceptions until I had it explained to me.
Greg
I learned about not fixing my track down. That was not my point, it was just illustrating the action of heat expanding the rail and resulting in a consequence. My point was that heat, not cold, causes most of the damage to both my garden railroad and the full size railroads in our country.
Two of these are from Oz, one from the U.S.
Mick
Chief Operating Officer
Northern Timber Company - Mt Beenak
The prototype ties do not move in curves or anywhere else. That would cause massive buckling of the track and major geometry problems resulting in trains not only derailing, but also sideswiping each other. The stress of expansion and contraction is not relieved through movement of the rails or ties out of a fixed geometry. The ballast exists ONLY to provide drainage away from the track structure. Track moves out of geometry through the movement of trains, not by normal natural forces. Imagine the track as a table cloth, slide you hand across the cloth and notice the little ridge you are pushing up in front of your hand. Full size track does the same thing when a train rolls over it, just on a smaller scale. Over time the tonnage of trains moving along the track pushes it out of alignment, it has nothing to do with the track "floating" in a ballast bed.
There's fundamental difference here, the prototype has ties that can move in the ballast on curves, and the post above talks about having the ties screwed down.
The first impulse of people in large scale seems to be to try to control expansion and contraction by bolting everything down, and you just cannot "repeal the laws of physics".
So neither of you is wrong about the specific situations you have presented.
I free float my track in ballast and of course never tear the "spikes" from the ties.
How to handle expansion and contraction on outdoor layouts is the topic of endless discussions about expansion joints, tightness of joiners/clamps, rail loose in the ties, free floating vs. secured, etc.
Regards, Greg
I live in a temperate area. We never have snow and the top temperature is about 110F (40C). I have to disagree strenuously with you. Contraction during the cold weather sometimes pulls the rail ends away from each other in a rail joiner, but not enough to pull one end out. However, on a very hot day, the brass rail, mostly LGB, expands and if the sleepers (ties) are nailed down, the nail and the sleeper stay put but the moulded chairs are broken off on the outside of the curve as the rail is pushed sideways under expansion.
I don't know very much about full size rail, but the only time we have problems on our rail network is due to expansion in extreme heat. AND our track gangs always work at night, when the network is quiet....it has nothing to do with when the rail is a certain temperature.
Almost. Track is laid at a neutral temperature, meaning for the area it's in the rail is computed for a certain degree value when it is laid down. The forumula is complex, and the railroads have rail heaters and other equipment for this purpose. The expansion/contraction is not an issue as the rail is designed to remain in a state of compression for most of it's life. That way when a section is cool, the hotter parts can expand, and when the entire rail is hot the steel is compressed and remains in geometry. To have rail in a state of tension will cause massive rail breaks as the tension snaps and relieves the pressures inside the rail.
It sounds counter intuitive, but it works in the real world. The rule of thumb when working on track is "when in doubt, cut it out; it's a sin to add rail in". This is because if TOO much rail is added in then it will upset the delicate balance of compression and the track geometry will always be off- most notably around the switches. I've seen as little as 4" of extra rail create endless headaches around interlockings. Cut the rail out, weld the section up, and have a nice day you're done. Rail breaks in the real world happed due to metal fatigue and not contraction. Even when a rail snaps, the sections remain touching due to the compression of the rail, and are sometimes very hard to find.
Real track does not "float" in the ballast and no rail expansion joints are provided. Ballast exists for the one and only purpose of providing drainage. Track can be laid on bare ground (provided it's leveled of course!) and it will work just fine. The cross ties and rail are the only things that provide structural strength and geometry to the railroad.
So what does that mean on our garden railroads? For one, expansion worries are for the most part a non-issue. Track that kinks when the temperature changes are a result of tension due to the rails being too short (under tension), not too long (under compression). If track is laid properly, without having to force any rails into place, then you almost certainly will never have to worry about geometry faults due to expansion/contractions.
That's it in a nutshell.
Track is always laid when it's warmest, and often stretched too. There's formulas for what to do based on the temperature the track is at.
Just did a quick look up online. As I understand it, the rails are heated to the point that they will not expand any further then tightly anchored to the ties. The ties are well anchored to the earth and therefore the whole system becomes stable and the rail is therefore not allowed to shrink. But rail wants to shrink about 5' per mile so it seems to me that this system would cause significant stress in the rail eventually causing stress fractures. It would seem more logical to lay the track cold and allow expansion to occur in the vertical direction. I haven't done the math but a 5' length change in one mile would result in a very small vertical change.
No IRB, they don't use rail joints except very rarely and they are not there for expansion reasons. Besides, how much can one rail joint matter on 10 miles of rail when the morning is 30 and the afternoon 80 degrees with some of the rail in the shade and some in the sun?
The answer may surprise you.
I know the answer(s) too. I'd like to hear them.
Is it by varying the rail joint locations?
So, how do the real full size railroads handle expansion and contraction since most rail is continuous welded and temps run from 20 below to 120 above? I know the answer, I'm wondering if anybody else has given this some thought. The answer does have practical application to our garden railways.
Thanks for the info. You've done a lot, and innovated.
As an aside, all the aluminum used on boats is anodized... if the anodization is intact, the aluminum is protected.
25 KM sure beats my 5,000 feet to the ocean!
Yes, expansion is greater but can be managed. Nice big chunks of aluminum for rails, nowhere near as fragile or thin as scale rail of aluminum.
Your railway works and has proved itself.
To all so far, thanks for the comments, suggestions and brickbats,
to answer some of the questions :
-Rain where I am , yes , plenty of it, mainly on the weekends.
- Snow, once a couple of years ago ( about an inch) - but not normally, only on the hilltops in the middle of winter.
- Where do the trains sleep - Refer the photo gallery on the track page, www.gscaletrains.net.nz ( place the curser at the top of the photos for description.
Briefly for the summer the trains are contained in the 20ft long twin tracked train shed . Simply drive the trains in and then back them out when needed. Only take them inside during the winter. Mainly to repair any damage, touch up etc.
- Lots of wires showing, their crafty creatures. They start off hidden but somehow they all creep out for a look. When the weeds get too much I do the weeding again and they get covered, pushed back under again. I will have to be assertive with them. Also, I do bury them but then make another model with something moving, so up they come again so I can use them tap into to get the currant. When I laid the track I used a multi core ( 50 pair) ex telephone cable alongside the track so it has plenty of spare wires. ( taken the hint, hide them, especially the red ones )
- The video of the train running is on the Models page .
- Weeds , plants etc, that's part of garden railways. Tried weed mat but that was a silly idea as the runners of the weeds go for some distances under the weed mat and pop up down the track. Tried spray but the plants didn't like it, tried to encourage my better half by pointing out the therapeutic benefits of weeding but that is not working either, so its down on the benders for around half an hour each other week. The worst problem is birds and them pecking away at the subsoil for worms and bugs, eating the wild strawberries and disturbing leaves and bark. Still, again birds, bugs and weeds are the "joy" of a railway in the garden.
Other comments from others relate to expansion, corrosion, even fires caused by aluminium . Sure, everything in its place but I firmly believe the negatives have been exaggerated and have put people off. I am 25 km from the sea and no signs of corrosion from salt sea water air. In fact many houses in NZ are right on the seafront and have aluminium joinery. It does get a coating from the salt water in the air but doesn't exactly fall to bits. Wash off once or twice a year and should last a lifetime. ( and that's only a couple of mm thick. For it to completely corrode the aluminium I use for rails , like one suggests, it would take well over 30 to 40 years. If I am still around 'playing" with trains I will be very happy.
I like the comment about many aluminium fittings are used in rigging or other fittings on boats, they even make dinghies out of the stuff, and they don’t exactly disintergrate when touching launched at the beech.
As far as "fires' go, rather rare. Refer to the Station masters page on the web site my wife has put together, nearly 42 years in the Fire Service, presently specialist fire/arson investigator so I believe have the expertise to assure you that fires in the aluminium tracks, or the electrical connections onto the track are not very likely.
Most electrical fires, in domestic situations, are caused by things like worn out connections ( copper) in multi box's, but that's another topic.
The reason I have taken this tack is that for years many people have said it wont work, for numerous reasons and I believe many would have been put off by those comments.
Some years ago my web page was put together to assist those, in the same position as myself ( cant afford to purchase the made up rail so make your own) No advertising on the web, solely at my expense to assist in helping others to partake in the hobby. But time and time again people have come back and said “they have researched on the forums and it wont work. Local person who has a loco, but no track as yet, but when offered that he could use my track to try his loco out said “no thanks, aluminium is too soft and it will damage his locos wheels.
Some of the reasoning for rubbishing the use of aluminium as track is unbelievable. It expands, so what, you allow for that. Its silver, paint it ( as long as you leave the top clear). Cant attach wires to it, try little nuts and bolts. It corrodes quickly, yeah right.
Most reasons are completely unfounded.
Other people have done the same as myself, and posted comments long ago, but they also gave up posting comments due to the constant negative feedback.
Well, the last straw is because of costs of brass, copper, stainless steel has skyrocketed all of a sudden a major track making firm is touting aluminuim G scale track like its the best thing since sliced bread. Seams the economic situation has made all the adverse facts disappear!
Up till now really had no firm evidence that "my way" actually worked but with my long suffering wife, Bev, putting together the web page people can now see it does work. Its been down now for 7 years, has not fallen apart, has not rotted away, has not been eaten and best of all trains actually move on it!.
Finally, as more proof, as we live in a wondrous world of marvels, and Google Earth, send me an email and I can forward you the co ordinates to see ( vaguely) my track from outer space. It used to be all you could see was the great wall of China, and Great Barrier reef, but now it includes outside railways.
This is on the basis you don't send a cruise missile to those co ordinates !!!!!
If you wish there’s provision to send an email at the base of some of the pages on my web site. www.gscaletrains.net.nz
In conclusion, it may not be to your liking, but if it makes the difference between someone have something they can enjoy or never doing it surely it should be encouraged, not put down.
To all those out there, like myself, that are willing to pass on the knowledge based on practicable advice and experience good on you, keep it up.
Keep on having fun, its only a hobby and it doesn’t have to have a brand name to be enjoyed.
Tony.
Narrowgauge As for the 'salt air' issue, I am really confused. I live in the panhandle of Florida right on the Gulf Coast. Almost all of the boats around here use aluminum for railings, towers and a lot of other ship fittings. I don't see these items vanishing in a couple of years. I am sure boat owners would not be too happy replacing these items every couple of years.
As for the 'salt air' issue, I am really confused. I live in the panhandle of Florida right on the Gulf Coast. Almost all of the boats around here use aluminum for railings, towers and a lot of other ship fittings. I don't see these items vanishing in a couple of years. I am sure boat owners would not be too happy replacing these items every couple of years.
You sure it isn't chrome.
Kiwi,
To the best of my knowledge there have been many manufacturers of aluminum rail over the years. I investigated large scale back in the mid 1970's and it was available then. Pure aluminum is a great conductor of electricity, however one of the major draw backs of aluminum as a material is that it oxidizes almost immediately on contact with the air, and the oxides are non-conductive. The second for our garden railroad purpose is the expansion factor. Aluminum expands at a rate of .0000123 inches per inch of length per degree of temperature rise. This is 18% higher than brass at .0000104 inches.
My tuppence worth.
Bob C.
To expand on Greg's comment, I live about 17~18 miles inland from Greg, and about 300 feet farther above sea level. Most morning I can look downhill to the top of the coastal fog. The air temperature here is normally 5~9 degrees warmer than where Greg lives. These slight differences in our "micro-climates" make for serious differences in how our materials react. You will never know what works best in your area unless you try it. Everyone has a bias as to materials to use. In my case I use only the "old LGB brass" (I'll soon have to bring in something else) simply because of the patina it quickly devlopes.
If expansion is a problem, simply put in a slight curve. In my case, there is a 110 foot absoultly straight run. I had a bit of movement in the return curve at the end of the run. The curve was moving less than a quarter inch. The boss want the problem solved even though it caused no problem with operations. I pulled and tugged on a section of the rails so that over about a 10 foot run the rails were offset from the straight centerline by about three inches over a ten foot run. About twenty feet later I put the "opposite" curve in the rails to return to the original centerline. An extreamly shallow "S" curve. After that there was no apparent movement in the return curve.
Tom Trigg
The environment makes a big difference. The arid climate of Arizona is different. For example, many people leave steel unpainted out there. It gets a light patina of rust and then usually stops. Here in San Diego, the same stuff would rust away completely in just a few years.
Aluminum is also sensitive to the environment. The salt air here would dissolve it in no time at all.
So, when someone asks, people have to reply in general, and say "try it out"
Your aluminum expands more than other rail, but proper tracklaying can handle expansion and contraction.
No one has mislead you, it's that problems with aluminum track IN GENERAL are greater than other types.
Different environments can make something possible where the same installation is impossible somewhere else.
We just recently finished laying a mix of brass and aluminum track on our large outdoor club layout using PVC crossties from Train-Li and rail from several sources. We're running only battery power because we also have a lot of the Train-Li PVC rail in the layout.
Everyone warned us about expansion of aluminum rail compared to brass or stainless and advised against using it, but so far that has proven to be like Chicken Little crying about the sky falling.
Even in the very intense Arizona sun, there seems to be no more expansion or contraction from differences in temperature than with brass rail.
Around 10 years ago I started making inquiries about a train in the garden. Lots of info available, but down under brass or stainless steel track was far too expensive so had to find an alternative. Aluminium seemed to be the only suitable alternative so started asking questions. All the advice I got was it would'nt work, expansion too great, too much maintenance etc, etc .
But, on a beer income couldnt afford the champaign rails so I tried it. It worked and most of the advice I got why I should not use it was completely wrong. Its cheap, no problem with conductivity, and it does not need all the extra cleaning. ( once every 3 months a very light sand).Now, with part of a wire brush under a cleener wagon I dont even have to sand it anymore.
Anyway, I then found out that a fellow modeller in Sydney, Australia had done it more or less simular to my efforts.
Why am I saying all this you ask, well, with all the negatives I heard its amazing that because of the high cost of copper etc one large model rail supplier is now, or going to, produce new rail in guess what? , yep, aluminium.. Sure it may be better shaped than mine but lets face it, its still aluminium. The stuff so many said would not work...Theres a comment that says it will have a special coating, why, it works perfectly without it. Its only if you live next door to the salt water will you have problems.
I just hope that some starting up were not put off by the high costs of brass or stailess rail and didnt try aluminium because of the negative comments.
So, if your just starting with your g scale, or even O gauge train in the garden and cant afford the top ready made track and are prepared for a little hard graft, dont be put off by all the negative comments, I suppose mainly by people that have not actually tried it.
Dont get me wrong, I dont intend to put the doubters down but I feel that many have accepted the bad hype from the past, which in the main seems to be unfounded, without actually finding out for themselves.
The proofs in the pudding , have a look at www.gscaletrains.net.nz. For something that so many said would not work, watch the short video, look at the picture galleries. Sure, its more for the rustic look which may not be what you want , but it works.
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