Power for a 4-2-4 need help

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone, I am new to the forum.
I have long wanted to make a model of the CP Huntington, http://www.parks.ca.gov/default.asp?page_id=21608 I have read that an Aristo rogers loco has a motor for each set of drive wheels. Would this be a good source of power?

I was thinking of using the cab of an old Bachman ten wheeler. Mostly I am looking for some input on how to proceed I am pretty new to scratch building.

[Anonymous]

[#welcome]
irate squirrel

Sorry I have no info on it. Just weathering and painting and landscaping.
BTW cool name [:D]

[Anonymous]

Hi irate squirrel
[#welcome]
I would say you have already taken the first step in deciding that is what you want to build.
I would write to the Southern Pacific RR and see if they can give you a General Arangement Drawing for it they may charge a small nominal fee
for copying the drawing..
Warning General Arrangement Drawings are not always drawn to scale
they are the Engineering worlds equivelent to an artists impresion.
If it is draw to scale this will be on the drawing usualy but not always down in the bottom R/H corner
Next lots of photographs of the diferent details on the locomotive are invaluable for working out what you have to make and what you can buy
I would also suggest geting the Frame drawing this one will be to scale.
It is a some what diferent locomotive due to the single drive wheel
and care will have to be taken to balance the weight so the bogies are carrying the same amount of weight each but most of the weight is on the single drive wheel you will be relying wholly and souly on that for drive and tractive effort it is unlikly to pull more than three or four cars which at a guess
is about what I would expect the prototype to have managed
As this is a real locomotive I would not make any decisions about what to use for what without studieing the drawings and loads of photos.
For the simple reason there will always be some[censored] who will come and say that bit isn't right or some other pettie minded critisisam
regards John

[vsmith]

IrateSquirrel Welcome to the forum,

I was thinking of this also, using an AMC "The General" kit as the basis. I was going to use an Aristo powered truck for the 44ton switcher installed under the tender to power it letting the driver roll free, Over on the Mylargescale forum there was a similar question some one there suggested using the drive mechinsm for a Hartland Woody railcar which can ordered direct from Hartland.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the welcomes guys! [8D]

I have already done some digging on the CP, mostly though I am interested in it being "close enough" as it is my first scratchbuild idea and I would make this loco for my mining/lumber line. Mostly it will pull little ore cars or a few log cars. So a whole bunch of power is not necesarry. I will look into the hartland powertrucks. Thanks again guys and keep the ideas coming, I'm new to this so I can use all the little help and tips you can provide! [:)]

[bman36]

irate squirrel,
Welcome to the forum! I hope you find the info here usefull. To date I have not scratchbuilt a loco. Some exellent ideas flowing here already. That is a neat looking loco you are trying to duplicate. All the best in your project! Later eh...Brian.

[grandpopswalt]

Vic,

Have you had any experience using a powered tender to push a dummy engine around? I've considered doing this many times but never got around to trying it.

Walt

[vsmith]

This would be a first attempt. I have seen it done before, at the original Fairplex garden rr the old gauge 3 locos were all tender driven, they were the only motors they could find. the engines though were very heavy so as not get pushed off a curve or derailed on a switch.

For the CP Huntington, being a single frame engine, mounting the motor under the fuel bunker seams the easiest solution to the power problem. The Aristo power truck is cheap and very avalible. I used two to build my Dunkirk geared engine from another AMC General kit and an old Bachmann flatcar last summer. It looks good and runs really well.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the advice vsmith! How well do the power trucks rotate? I am afraid of it getting hung up on curves. How does installation work? Will it run by itself or does it need additional pickups? I would be interested to see a picture of your loco.

Thanks again!

[vsmith]

The Dunkirk uses the original screw mounting hole in each truck. I only used the body shell of the flatcar and built a new underside for it.

For a CP type the truck pivot would need to be revised and moved forward. same with the pilot, its pivot would need to be moved pack. I havent tried this yet. I have concerns about how the engine would track if both the front and rear trucks pivot and thedrivers are fixed. It might wobble side to side going down the track

[bman36]

Vic,
Sounds like one would need to try different configurations with just a piece of hardwood. Mount everything to that just for running purposes. Worth a try? IRATE SQUIRREL....love the name...now that is funny. Have two here (Chip and Dale?) that chatter at me from the hydro line out back. That or they are fighting with birds at the neighbors feeder. Yikes! This will be a neat project. Keep us posted. Later eh...Brian.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

This would be a first attempt. I have seen it done before, at the original Fairplex garden rr the old gauge 3 locos were all tender driven, they were the only motors they could find. the engines though were very heavy so as not get pushed off a curve or derailed on a switch.

The old fairplex ones are nice engines. They run pretty well too. Should you choose to use tender power I would suggest keeping everything very well lubricated and don't run them too fast, in addition to wieghting them, of course.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Scott

[Anonymous]

THanks for all the advice guys I have recieved a response from the CA Rail museum and I will be making a trip up there sometime soon to get reference pics and some plans from their restoration.

[Fletch]

Hey Irate Squirrel,
A friend of mine directed me to your question about building a model based on the CP Huntington.

we have a small model building class coming up at mylargescale.com, that will demonstate the building of a Narrow Gauged version of a 4-2-4T based on the CP. The two chapter series also has background about the history of the 'Singles' the CP and other stuff relating to the later era singles. The articles have not yet been put on-line due to a hold up in the gearbox from Hartland. Basically the loco is entirely made from Hartland parts, and part kits for the model will be available from Hartland when the class is up. The prototype model used a modular 'smaller' gearbox from hartland on the main drive wheel, but in testing, while she runs fine and can haul 5 wagons up a 3% grade, the motor was getting hotter than I would like. For this reason the class will use the larger hartland modular gearbox, which is still in development! This is the gearbox due to go into their new 2-6-0s.

The drive wheels, pilot truck, tender truck, all wheels, rear bunker, domes, cab, stack, headlight, cylinders, rods, pilot etc are all stock Hartland parts. we'll be demonstrating how to make your own wagon top boiler, and chassis frame. It is quite a simple approach.

Drop me an e-mail, and I'll keep you posted on progress. Phil at Hartland said the new 2-6-0s were due to hit the market next month, and the gearboxes will be available about a month after that.

To view photos of the model we'll be building refer my web site:

http://4largescale.com/fletch/d0d.htm

There is also info at mylargescale.com in the forums under 'Masterclass and articles'. This class has had a big delay due to the new big gearbox, but the wait should be over soon!

The loco basically operates as a 4-2-0, with all the weight on those wheels. The rear truck has lateral play, but other an a light spring, has no real weight on it.



Please feel free to ask if you have anymore questions..also the Aristo Rogers 2-4-2 motor block can certainly be used in your proposed model, but further ,the axle end profile is good to fit a number of drivers, including the large 2" Hartland drive wheels.

The 2" wheel is technically undersized, even for this small model! But its the best available, and as this is a Narrow gauged version and is not the CP as a scale model, it achieves the look.
Best of luck sir,
Fletch.

[vsmith]

Fletch

Any Idea how much of a diameter your version of the CP would require? I am limited to R1 and I have concerns now over the overall lenth of a CP replica. If I cant get it to work on an R1 dia I will have to reassess my plans. I have an AMC The General loco kit I was going to use as a base model to built the CP on. If R1 is not feasable for a loco of this type I might have to consider a 4-2-0 or similar.

Please keep everyone here advised on the Masterclass project status, any idea when they will be starting it up? Even If I choose not to model the CP in the Masterclass, I will be monitoring the class because the drive you describe is perfect for a couple of projects I want to build for my layout. Namely the Los Angeles & San Pedro RR 2-2-0 "San Gabriel" and a varient of the C&NW 2-2-2 "Pioneer".

[Fletch]

Hi Vic,
The 4-2-4T loco I built can only make a 2.5ft radius curve, and strangely its not because of the rear truck.! The problem is the proximity of the drive wheel axle to the pilot truck pivot. The model effectively runs as 4-2-0, with the rear truck just floating. But with the pilot truck so close to the powered axle, the lead end of the pilot truck follows the curve...this causes the truck to pivot about the fixed point under the smokebox...which in turn causes the rear axle of the pilot truck to move the opposite direction..fine. The problem is that when the curve drops to 2ft radius, the rear axle of the pilot truck is pushed to a point outside of the railhead by the lead axle...does that make sense to you? Its kinda weird till you see it happen, but bascially the rear axle of the truck ends up jutting outside the rail line, while the lead wheel and drive wheels are still on the track. Solutions to the problem - put more space in between the pilot truck pivot and drive axle..can be done two ways -
1- make the loco wheel base longer by about 1".
2- Move the pivot on the lead truck from being in the centre of the truck, to a position nearer to one of the two axles in the truck...probably put the pivot just ahead of the rear axle and it'll work fine...other things to watch are the lead wheels hitting the cylinders because the whole lateral play at the front end will be greater.

I wouldn't really bother re-using the 'General' boiler. Once you're done cutting, filling all the holes, making it smooth etc, you may as well make your own out of pipes, and get all the spacing you want, boiler band setouts, as well as getting the correct quite steep taper at the wagon top part. The General's boiler is more like a typical 4-4-0, with the taper at a shallower angle. Making wagon top boilers is easy when you know the short cuts. I'll provide 1:1 templates in the class, to cut the wrapper to fit over the taper area.

The class will start just as soon as the new Hartland gearbox is ready. It was due in Feb..but that time passed! The latest is the gearbox will be available in about 2 months...here's hoping!

Thanks mate,

If there is interest, I'm happy to upload the PDF drawings for the 4-2-4T which are exactly the model built in the class. Printed at 100%, you can see how large it is, wheel sizes etc...it also shows the actual size of all the Hartland parts used.

Fletch.

[vsmith]

Fletch
I would like to get that PDF drawing. I realize the 'General's boiler might not work, but almost everything else can be used, cab, domes, stack, pilot, etc. I still have concern over getting into the class if the engine wont work on my layout. but i definetly will be following along, Thanks, Vic

[Fletch]

Hey Vic,
Yes you really do need to make your own boiler for the CP..the taper is much steeper than the General. Also much of the General Kit, while can be used, seems wasteful, when most of it wont be used! Ie removing the domes off the boiler, will ruin the boiler for other possible bashes.

Call up Phil Jensen at Hartland trains, Parts dept and order/cost up the following:
(Call Tues or Thurs Mornings only)

- 1 cow catcher with link pocket and pole
- 1 4-4-0 pilot deck and cylinder assembly
- 1 set of steam chest covers
- 1 4-4-0 pilot truck with larger meal wheels inserted
- 1 set of chomed 4-4-0 crossheads
- 1 set of 4-4-0 main rods
- 1 set of 4-4-0 drive wheels ( 1 axle worth only) red.
- 1 rounded peaked roof cab kit
-1 Big John lower cab extension
-1 big John rear tender /coal bunker
-1 Kalamazoo tender truck (or ask for the C-16 truck too)
-1 large box geadlight plus bracket.
- 1 Lilly Belle 4-4-0 SP stack.
-1 Bell
- 1 Ernest Marsh brass sand dome
- 1 4-4-0 brass sand dome (thats right you're asking for 2 sand domes! You make the tall steam dome using the 4-4-0 sand dome, by adding a cluster to the top)
- brass whistle
- set of brass oil cups for the cylinder caps
-1 set of Stephenson valve cranks.
-2 brass hand rail ends.
1 smokebox front number disk.

The gearbox you could use with the 4-4-0 drivers is the Woodie gearbox, but I'd wait till you got the larger H-L-W heavy gearbox, about to be released. Or use an Aristo 2-4-2 gearbox. The H-L-W drive wheels will fit on. You may need to adjust the gauge yourself.

Here are the side view drawings, which use the stock Hartland parts listed above, and is what my loco was built from:

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DavidFletcher/CP%20Huntington-1.pdf

http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/DavidFletcher/CP%20Huntington-2.pdf
This second one is the same as above, but with the proper proportioned drive wheel, which is larger than the largest wheel H-L-W make.

If you go to your hardware store you will find elec pipe connectors of PVC that step between two pipe diameters..these make great dome bases. Also in recent weeks I've found some that have a hex type base to them..perfect for CP Huntington dome bases..then all you need do is add the H-L-W brass dome tops. The pipe connectors form the dome base, plus narrower middle section.

The boiler is done by using a PVC pipe..run it straight to the cab.
Make the running boards along the boiler side and attach them.
Then cut a wider diameter pipe for the wagon top part, cut the pipe so that only 2/3 of the width is used (when on it's side). Sit the wider pipe over the top of the boiler pipe, and let the bottom of it just sit on the running boards.
Use Paper to forma template for the taper between boiler and raised wagon top. Run your fingers over the paper along the exposed edge of pipe where the taper should go..cut along the crease in the paper and you'll get a half moon looking template. Cut the same out of 0.5mm thick styrene, epoxy the taper sheet in place. Then pour some epoxy into the back of the boiler between the two pipes so that it fills in behind the taper sheet...making it solid. Then sand the outside area of the boiler bringing the taper section smooth between the two boiler diameters.











Fletch.

[Fletch]

Chaps,
Just Brining this topic back to the top. I'm following up equireries about building models based on the CP Huntington 'Single' 4-2-4T.

The two chapter Miniclass for the construction of this cute lil loco will be starting in 4 weeks at the MLS web site. The loco is constructed using a substantial kit of parts being supplied by Hartland trains as a 'kit', and at discounted rates.

If you're interested in building this loco, reply to the MLS link:
http://www.mylargescale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=28854

I'd like to get some idea of the number of folks interested, so we can advise Hartland as to how many kits to allow for. Ordering will not take place until the article is on-line in 4 weeks.

Thanks chaps,
Fletch.