My first post here...feelin' the urge!

[Jim Duda]

Hi folks -
For several years now, as I sit at the kitchen table and look out into the backyard, I think about running a train from island to island across that footbridge. That's as far as I've gotten, but I'm real close to taking my second step to get the train moving (pardon the pun!). My first step was starting this thread here.

Anyway, I have a ton of reading to do before I spend the first dollar on anything and hope to learn most of what I need to do from this forum. At this point I THINK I'd like the Aristocraft train:
http://gallery.bcentral.com/Gallery/ProductDetails.aspx?GID=3725153&PID=1770884&page=1&sortOrder=0
running on nickel-silver track. The weather here in central Texas will pretty much allow me all year operation which helps me justify this adventure.

My plan is to build a dogbone layout with the large ovals in the two islands, and narrow down to cross the footbridge, embedding the track in it to simulate the prototypical grade crossing. It will be an elevated system, matching the height of the footbridge (about 12 inches), which will eliminate any grading problems.

So here are my initial questions:
1. Is the above Aristocraft train a piece o' crap or is it up there with the LGB stuff?
2. Where do you buy your trains, track, and controls? I prefer to order on-line but refuse to pay MSRP.

In 3 rail O Gauge, MTH is the clear winner in smoke output and right up there in sounds and control. I presume there are clear winners in these and other categories in this scale and I'll wait until I learn about them and I'm better educated overall before I make my first purchase.

Thanks everyone...remember when you were taking your "first step"?

Jim Duda

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim
[#welcome]
I have a number of different brands of train all of which have there pros and cons.
before geting overly concerned about which train
I would sugest sorting out a theme for your line std or narrow gauge mainline short line
logger ect this will determin the sort of trains you want.
Two area s not to compromise on quality are your locomotives and track work.
Some like me say it is better to have a few good pieces while others say less quality and more of it.
the second is ok for freight and passanger cars as it is usualy easy to get good trucks under them.
But don't compremise on locomotives and track
For the first set I would sugest going into your local hobby shop and having a look at the trains talk to the dealer see them run, does the set look right does it look like a tender is missing ect some large scale locomotives in sets look like a tender is missing.
Some small 4wh cars are quite inexpencive and the small locomotive to pull them is the same and reasonably good but this may not be what you want.
regards John

[Jim Duda]

Thanks for the response John...pretty sure it will be mainline, std gauge. I'm not into switching, yard operations, etc. More of a hands off, just watching it roll along the route without stopping. That's why the diesel passenger Aristocraft seems interesting. In fact, I'm leaning toward NO SWITCHES at all...maybe later, to add a siding to park the train in a weatherproof shelter. Eventually some structures if I remain interested.

Gramma bought our youngest son a starter LGB set about 15 years ago which includes a small steamer type loco and a couple of 4 wheel cars - I was intending on using that to test the trackage and control system (yet undecided). Tons of questions like which couplers, add on sound systems, aftermarket smoke systems, track sizes/brands, etc., but all that will eventually get sorted out.

I would love to hear the pros and cons of your equipment, though...

We certainly seem to agree on the quality versus the quantity thing! One loco and a few car consist is all I want...but they will have to be good stuff!

JD

[Anonymous]

Welcome,

I think you will enjoy posting and learning here. I have been in this forum only a short time and have learned so much and met so many people from aroun dthe world. You have most definatley come to the right place with your questions.[#welcome][4:-)]

[bman36]

Hi Jim,
Welcome to the forum! Glad to have you here. Check out the other threads here regarding the questions you have. All of them have been covered in great detail and should help in your decision making. Nice yard you have there to build in. Enjoy the forum. Later eh...Brian.

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim
If std gauge is your thing take a good hard look at Aristocraft their couple of freight cars that I have, have a couple of features that I like.
Propper suspention for a start and metal wheels their plain track is good and is weatherproof.
I dont know about their locomotives as all of mine bar two are LGB the odd two is a Hartland Mack swicher a nice little runner rather suprising with the relatively inexpensive nature of the locomotive the other is a Bachmann ten wheeler curently being batterd into a larger scale loco.
I would sugest having a few swiches so you can change the route the train takes and a small yard to store trains during an operating session.
Me I like to play oops!! I mean operate trains but also sometimes just idle and watch them go by.
regards John

[vsmith]

I have to agree that for mainline standard guage, Aristo Craft is good stuff.

Dont be too afraid of switches, aristo switches work good with aristo trains, i would suggest plan on at least one passing siding to allow two train operation.

[Jim Duda]

Oooops! Now I'm not so sure I meant STD. GAUGE...since I am so new, I associate "Garden Scale" with the LGB stuff I see running in the stores at Christmas time. Anyway, that's the gauge size I have in mind. I need to read up on the dimensions of the gauges so I don't make a costly mistake down the line...

JD

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jim Duda

Oooops! Now I'm not so sure I meant STD. GAUGE...since I am so new, I associate "Garden Scale" with the LGB stuff I see running in the stores at Christmas time. Anyway, that's the gauge size I have in mind. I need to read up on the dimensions of the gauges so I don't make a costly mistake down the line...

JD

Its pretty easy , by "Standard Gauge" we mean the trains that in reality operate on 4'-8 1/2" gauge track, the big boys, Union Pacific, Santa Fe, CSX, those guys, the big deisels, big steam engines, streamline cars, etc. Aristo Craft, USA, are the best examples.

The other stuff like LGB and Bachmann represents narrow guage trains, Euro 1 meter guage for LGB european prototype stuff, and 3'-0" guage, mostly Colorado rail lines for Bachmann, like D&RGW.once you get familiar with who makes what its pretty easy to identify what you are looking for.

[Jim Duda]

Soooo...if I have an Aristo or USA train and the correct track (std. gauge) for them, does that mean I can or cannot run the LGB stuff...? The battery powered, R/C approach seems to have merit at this point for what I want to do. Considering track maintenance, wiring, and that battery technology is constantly improving, it does present an interesting option.

Have any of you folks wi***hat you would have chosen this approach? I realize there are pros and cons to any system, but it does seem to offer a compelling argument...

So many choices...

Jim Duda

[Anonymous]

Jim, You can run the LGB stuff as you say. As Vsmith said Aristo and USA look better on thier track due to prototypical tie spacing. LGB track looks more prototypical for a narrow gauge line. The actual spacing between rails is the same meaning run whatever on any track. Beware as I've been told and said above by Vsmith Aristo switches are fine for Aristo locos however LGB and bachman seem to work better on LGB switches.
Vsmith jump in anytime here did I get right on the switch thing in terms of explanation?

[Anonymous]

Yeah mate get into it; But here is what I would consider.

The best bit of advice I ever recieved in Garden railroading was "do it small at first then your mistakes and mind changes will be small"."Less is more"

Well I ignored this as i thought I wasn't going to make any mistakes or change my mind. But I did both of these things, even changed sites as i moved interstate, so just do it little to start. Your venue looks very interesting I'd love to have it.

To this end what about getting something going on one island first, then after you have learned a bit from experience, move on. Then get something going on your other island all the time you are going about these two separate activities, keep in mind your masterplan what you hope to end up with. Actually draw up a rough plan of what you hope to achieve in the overall layout. Kepp it in mind and refer back to it as you go along and I bet you change your mind about many details and probably a few major things as well.

As far as track is concerned I wouldn't even consider anything else beside Aristo or LGB or something made out of a similar metalic brass combination. I think Aristo has more zinc and less copper than LGB which seems to me to corrode much less quickly, particularly here in the tropics. But of course nothing is free and in theory the LGB with more copper should be a better conductor of electricity.

I have an aristo set of points(switches) and have found nothing wrong with it but i use almost exclusively LGB and I use bigger curve ones, electrically operated. More expensive but worthwhile (I wasn't going to have any switches either).

I like the idea of a dogsbone in fact I am about to start on my Area 3, which will be a folded dogsbone see page 25 "Garden Railroading" my bible. If you havent got this book get it before you do a thing; its a Kalmbach Book.

I am sold on LGB rolling stock and loco's particularly if you have some curves, their patented bogey (truck I think) sets them apart from all others. But its your money and your railway and good luck with it.


Ian Kawana Island tropical Railway.

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim,

The guys who run our local model shop sell Bachmann and USA and always advise people that if you don't want to mix the scales then have operating sessions that suit you at the time. If you are in narrow guage mode run your 2-8-0 and a short mixed train. In standard guage mode run a nice beefy SD40-2 with a rake of freight. Agree with everyone else, Aristo or LGB track is the best with metal wheeled stock, but I do have problems with my consolidation over the Aristo switches - time to get the file out I suspect. Don't forget your power. If you go mains get the highest amperage you can, I was running my consolidation on Sunday (a hot day) with lighted stock and it kept tripping out the safety on the 5 amp supply.
Happy railroading,
Kim
[tup]

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by carpenter matt

Jim, You can run the LGB stuff as you say. As Vsmith said Aristo and USA look better on thier track due to prototypical tie spacing. LGB track looks more prototypical for a narrow gauge line. The actual spacing between rails is the same meaning run whatever on any track. Beware as I've been told and said above by Vsmith Aristo switches are fine for Aristo locos however LGB and bachman seem to work better on LGB switches.
Vsmith jump in anytime here did I get right on the switch thing in terms of explanation?

When it comes to Aristos R1 4 foot diameter switches, yes, derailments and stalls happen a lot, thats why i use LGB only, but if your going to go to the wider diameter turnouts, I cant comment. Aristo's wide switches should be fine for Aristo/USA trains, I havent heard any complaints about them like with the R1 switches.

Jim, remember that the track for "standard guage" and "narrow guage" is the same track, 45mm guage. LGB and Aristo track are interchangeble, like Matt says, its just the tie size and spacing that look different.

Also if you are planning on a "standard guage" layout plan for the largest diameter curves you can use, no less than 6 foot diameter, 8 foot diameter is the most recommended now. this is due to the newest engines and cars are desinged around the 8 foot curves. LGB is the only mfr that still designed all its stuff to fit thru the R1 4 foot diameter curves.

[Jim Duda]

See...I've already changed my mind and agree with iandor to start with a simple circle or oval in the right side island and learn from the inevitable mistakes I make...then expand as time and finances permit.

Let's say I start with Aristo track, LGB F7A/B, USA Trains steel wheeled passenger set.
1. Will the LGB loco handle the Aristo std. ga. track?
2. Will the different scales look funny on the same train?
3. Will their couplers all work with each other?

I presume the LGB diesel is physically smaller than Aristo and USA version of the F7 series...

JD

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Jim Duda

See...I've already changed my mind and agree with iandor to start with a simple circle or oval in the right side island and learn from the inevitable mistakes I make...then expand as time and finances permit.

Let's say I start with Aristo track, LGB F7A/B, USA Trains steel wheeled passenger set.
1. Will the LGB loco handle the Aristo std. ga. track?
2. Will the different scales look funny on the same train?
3. Will their couplers all work with each other?

I presume the LGB diesel is physically smaller than Aristo and USA version of the F7 series...

JD

1. Yes
2. No
3. No

Like I said previously they all run on the same 45mm track, so they will all work together on the same track.

The LGB F7 is roughly the same scale as USA's streamline cars, if anything the LGB F7 is probably slightly LARGER than the USA F7, so they should look perfectly fine together.

Lastly, NO, LGB aftermarket knuckle coulpers will not work with USA's standard knuckle couplers. BUT LGB's standard hook and loop couplers can be installed onto the USA cars. The hook and loop coupler is large scales only true universal coupler that will work any time anywhere. if you want to just run trains, with no switching, then go with the hook and loop.

[Jim Duda]

Absolutely GREAT info...at least I know what pieces will allow me to get started...

Anyone want to step up and list the reason(s) why you did or did not choose the on-board battery vs. track power, and/or why you did or did not choose R/C over track signal control? Which is easier - converting battery-R/C to conventional track power /control or vice versa?

Thanks...and I really am getting closer to making my decision.

JD

[Anonymous]

Jim;

I have read all that everyone has had to say and I must remark that you have been given some godd advice and I wish i had of been so well advised when I first started out.

I am in the unique situation where my wife is also my accountant and allocates any monies I may need to buy new gear. The one constraint she puts on me is "don't buy anything that is cost effective that doesn't do anything".

So by all means buy a cheap starter set but realise that IS what it IS and before you make a final selection; look at what you can do with it down the track. Once you have had a loco with SOUND anything else seems pretty pointless, so get sound to start or be sure you can get it modified later.

At a club meeting I purchased an LGB DR Mallet for US$1300 it was 2nd hand but as new absolutely mint, result of a divorce. It had smoke and about six on board functions such as bells whistles, steam valve, chugs in time with motion. Even you could hear the men stoking up the fire box, all digital, all true to life etc. Suddenly everything else I had was hardly worth having.

This loco has now had a couple of decoders put in it and it is a fully remorte controlled very sophisticated loco and you just wouldn't be bothered withanything less.

So I would not even start with anything else besides a steam loco that can give you some worthwhile functions ,if you should wi***o really fly in this pasttime.

Regards Ian.

[Anonymous]

Hi Jim,

Ian is bang on with his advice on sound and there are some great systems out there now. The only thing you have to watch out for are neighbours. When my trains are running I don't have any sound because I have 5 sets of neighbours sharing my back garden boundary and we are all out there on nice days. To be fair to them I don't want to force them to listen to steam exhaust or diesel rumble and I don't want to have to listen to their choice of music etc etc.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[bman36]

Kimbrit,
Funny you should mention the neighbors. My neighbor on the one side commented once that he did not hear any trains running. "How come???" No complaints here. Who knows...maybe we'll be cutting a hole in the fence and building a line in his yard! Later eh...Brian.

[Jim Duda]

OH my God! I just saw this Dash 9 on the St Aubin site! Don't know if I can resist or not...!!!

http://www.lgbpola.com/aristocraft/Dash9_Main.htm

I will use my son's LGB starter set he got about 10 years ago to test the trackage. I am gonna start with a 15 foot diameter circle in the one island and expand from there. The circle of Aristo Stainless track is $130 and a box (12) of 36 in. straight is $100 - not as bad as I thought it would be.

Will someone tell me the disadvantages of Stainless vs. Brass? I know stainless is harder to solder but doesn't someone supply screw on connectors? I think I could get by with only two power feeds, one on each side of the 15' circle.

iandor - I totally agree on sound...I'm used to the MTH and Lionel sound systems in 3 rail O gauge - once you hear it, you're hooked! I fly Radio Control Pylon Racing airplanes in National Competition and have been involved in R/C airplanes for 35 years. To tell the truth, battery power and R/C control is what I'll probably settle on, but initially I'm just gonna go with a good power supply and see if I remain interested enough to justify getting more sophisticated.

Here's the best part - the islands are already covered with landscape bark so I can just lay the track directly on it, attach the power leads, and go. Should be up and running in a weekend.

One more question: If I get the box of Aristo track, will it come with the proper track connectors or will they have to be purchased separately?

You guys have been wonderful...THANK YOU!

JD

[bman36]

Jim,
Stainless vs. brass....there was a thread on this. Although I do recall that those who own stainless love it. It won't tarnish like brass so it you want that look... brass is the way to go. All track is normally sold with connectors. Aristo uses tiny screws at each connector to keep it in place. Flew some RC myself. If you are an accomplished pylon racer my hat comes off to ya'. That is precision. Most I ever did was crash a few gliders and a 1/2A trainer. Still own all my RC equipment and a Sig Clipper that has never been flown. May try again when my son is old enough. Love model rr'ing especially outdoors. Later eh...Brian.

[Jim Duda]

Brian - here's what we fly - radar gunned at 187.6 MPH straight and level...so they scoot along pretty well! JR 8 channel on PCM (72 MHZ band) controls it.



But back to Garden Trains...

The low maintenance part of Stainless is what interests me. Doesn't brass require more frequent cleaning? But if there are EFFECTIVE track cleaning cars, then that point becomes moot. Of course, with battery power, the rail cleaning becomes less important, correct?

I looked on the St Aubin site, but could not find any Aristo brass track. Where do you folks get yours?

JD

[vsmith]

Jim,

At least with that Aristo DASH-9 you wont have to worry about flipping it on take off and augering in to the asphalt! [xx(]

I've seen a $500 plane do just that, as one guy warned me when I thought of trying RC, " If you cant afford to crash it, dont build it " [;)]

Guess thats why I'm doing trains...[D)][(-D][:-,][X-)][alien]


If you go battery power, go brass track, simply because its less expensive. With battery and RC track type is almost irrelevant as there is no power conductivity or voltage drop issues to worry about. you can let the track get as dirty as you want. The only maintanence is clearing stuff off the track and the ocasional re-leveling and re-ballasting. With RC you can also do all the things that make us track powered guys go crazy wiring, like reverse loops.

Stainless is mostly better for track powered operation or for those that want that shiny real-life silver railtop like real track has. Brass will weather to a dark brown eventually. [:D]

[bman36]

Jim,
Nice bird! Like I said hats off! Vsmith pretty much covered it with track. All my track is LGB brass. St. Aubins should have Aristo. Maybe call and check. Brass is easily cleaned with a Scotchbrite pad on the end of a drywall sanding pole. The rail head (top) needs to be clean for the juice to reach your loco. Those Dash 9's are georgeous! Love the one in BNSF. The colours are awesome. Garden Railroading won't give you the adrenalin ru***he pylon racer will, but having friends over on a Sat. eve. is a great experience. Sitting with your fav. beverage and watching the trains go by makes for great conversation. Enjoy. Later eh...Brian.

[Jim Duda]

Hey guys - unless I'm reading the St. Aubin's price list for Aristo track wrong, it seems equivalent size loops of stainless and brass are pretty much a wash. Maybe it's a misprint???

What ever way I go, I am REALLY looking forward to what you guys just said...sitting out with friends watching the train roll by seems awesome! I read that Aristo might be coming out with a lithium-ion battery system, but until then, I think NiMH will work just fine.
How do the sound systems compare to the MTH and/or Lionel 3 rail sounds? Is Aristo smoke up to par with the MTH in 3 rail?

JD

[Anonymous]

Kim
Don't worry about the neighbours mate, my locos have adjustable levels of sound, so if they complain you have several courses of action

1) Deny everything and suggest either they have had too much to drink or are suffering delusions caused by childhood deprivation. After all no one else can hear trains can they?

2) Turn the sound down so that it wouldn't be regarded as annoying by all but the most difficult person. and there are people allover; that will complain about anything up to and including winning the lottery.

3) But the best way is if you get any commenters, invite them over to watch and have drink, quietly turn the conversation around and try to get them come over regularly and do some work. Don't forget we all learned a lesson from our American friend of days gone by; was it Tom Sawyer or Huckelberry Finn that actually got people to pay to paint his fence.



Jim.

About the rail, do not go to stainless unless you have an hostile environemt or some very good and simialr reason to so do.

1) Stainless is very expensive and you just don't need the extra cost, better to buy more track if you have the extra money.
2) It cannot be soldered and any other means of joining is very expensive and screwing will never be as good as solder.
3) If you change your mind and go to brass later, you may have problems in some areas woith electrolysyis. (caused by DC going through two dissimilar materials)
4) The majority of people use brass and they must have good reason for so doing.
ie reinventing the wheel can by expensive and not worthwhile.

5) Stainless is nowhere near the conductor of electricity that brass is, so you are just making more work for yourself unneccessarily; unless as I have said you need too, because of ambient conditions. I don't need it here in the tropics.

I was dissappointed in that it will take you a weekend to get going, HOURS mate HOURS.

Regards

Ian, Kawana etc,

[Jim Duda]

Ian - Aesop wrote a fable about a tortoise and a hare...(wink) If I can just throw the track down on those bark chips it might only take HOURS...
I've got things pretty much outlined in my mind EXCEPT which track power system to start with. Will 5 amps be enough or should I plan for the future and go 10 amps from the start? I'll move over to R/C - battery when I get more familiar with this stuff. I don't think I'll ever have more than 100 - 150 feet of track and I won't run more than 1 train at a time. No switches until later.

As they say in Texas,
G'day mate!

Jimbo

[Anonymous]

Brian/Jim,
Do we see a fully operational airport coming along on your railroads?? That would get the neighbours attention!
Ian,
I've decided that i'll model the London underground with everything in pipes 2' down and sound at full volume, then as you say, "trains, what trains"!
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[Anonymous]

Kim Mate; You wont be able to see them run! What about the Blackpool Illuminations, could you make up a little one of them as well.

Rgds Aussie Ian

Jimbo.

Yeah mate. Just throw the track down on the mulch to start and connect your power pack straight up to it and run a extension cord back to the house, with the idea of removing the whole thing when you fini***his is how I did it in my first RAGS (Rough As Guts Layout) down in Sydney around my pool.

Do not go to battery use unless you have too; in my previous life I was a battery guru and I would advise people not to have batteries unless they have too. ie I have sold high tech batteries in several countries. It is like giving youreself a toothache just because your next door neighbour has one.

Do not be too sure that you will not want to run more than one train at once. I thought that way and I now run 3 at once on 65M of track (200'). Buy a starter set and it will have its own power supply because no matter what you buy you will change your mind as you will have failures and also even better your horizons will be higher.

regards Ian the Aussie Grandad.