Im new to the whole outdoor railroading concept, being an indoor HO scale modeler.
I like the idea of not using track power,but im not sure R/C is right for me. I want to be able to M/U 2 or 3 diesels togather so I like the idea of using DCC outside as well. Is it possible to use DCC with battary packs? If I do go with track power which is better brass or stainless?
P
Well as you say in your entry -you are new to the concept. So, before you spend any money sit down with a pad and pencil and ask yourself a few questions.
1: How am I going to use the railway -operations /shunting /etc OR am I going to use it the scenic side and simply watch my locos and rolling stock running around in the flowers?
If you are going to do a lot of operations work then track power is really your only option. Battery is more suited to constant running as the start / stop drains the batteries faster (although you can get "regenerative ESCs" -at a price!)
2: How long do I want my locos to run for?
This has to do with the power requirements of your loco. Batteries are rated in Amp Hours or Milli Amp Hours -to find the correct battery for your loco you do need to know some basics about the amount of current (Amps) that your loco will draw.
3: How much prep work am I willing to do before I start to run my locos on my rails?
Both Brass and Stainless Steel produce non conductive oxides -but those of stainless steel form more slowly. As regard electrical conductivity Brass is far better than Stainless steel -however the short lengths that are normally used rather negate this factor! Electrical bonding of the rails is normal for track power and your best bet is to use a 100W+ soldering iron -rather than the induction "pistol" type. It is the sheer amount of heat that you have to put into the joint rather than the melting point of the solder that is required. You may require special fluxes to solder to Stainless Steel -depending on the alloy used.
regards
ralph
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
Ralph,
I wasn't aware that regen motor contollers were available for hobby use. Can you direct me to a website where I can get more info?
Thanks,
Walt
I did put the link in the previous thread.
Dimension Engineering are here:
http://www.dimensionengineering.com
You are looking for Sysren 10 and Sysren 25. While they might not be that expensive in the US after shipping, import duty and VAT -they are here!
Thank you for the link. Dimension Engineering is located in Akron, Ohio, just 20 minutes from where I live.
Howdy P, I like to walk around with my trains and I’m an operator using a card forwarding system. I use brass track, mostly Aristo and USA, with 2.5% max grades and run an Aristo track cleaning car over the railroad on the first run. I also have steel wheels on all my rolling stock. I use track power supplied by an Aristo Ultima 10 amp power supply controlled by handheld Aristo 27 Meg Hz Train Engineers. I rarely have conductivity problems; if operation gets sluggish I run the track cleaning car again. My trains always run with two or more front end units and sometimes with mid-train helpers.
Have fun, Rob
Another viewpoint... Many people do regular operations with batteries & R/C. The idea that batteries are not suitable for operations is simply not true.
SERABILL Another viewpoint... Many people do regular operations with batteries & R/C. The idea that batteries are not suitable for operations is simply not true.
Oh Dear Me..... (somebody else who can't read)
I did not say that shunting et al was not possible with batteries. What I did say was that shunting results in shortened battery life and the inability to operate such things a DCC controlled points, signals and couplings.
There are a few good R/C battery powered control systems out there. Each one has it's own advanges and disdvanges. It will be a matter of what you feel confortable with. I use RCS (Remote Control Systems) and I am very happy with the system. As far as batteries, most battery packs will give you about two hours of continous run time. This depends on air temperture, length of the train, and stopping and going. One thing to consider is the expence. You will drop about $300 per engine for a complete top of the line system. But you will never have to clean your tracks and you will be able to run on anyone elses railroad.
John F
I use CVP Products' AirWire900 wireless DCC system in all of my G-scale trains, powered with 12 Volt Gel-Cell rechargeable batteries. At an open house in November at our local club, I ran a Hartland Locomotive Works Big John engine all weekend on one 5 Ah battery without needing to recharge it. Gel-Cells can be recharged with an automotive charger.
Info about the AirWire900 can be found here: http://www.cvpusa.com
My layout can be viewed here: http://members.cox.net/cacole2/
And with battery power you never have to worry about dirty track because the trains will even run on plastic track or on a bare floor with no track.
Check out the Model Railroader video by the Associate Editor Cody. You have to wait through the other scales but the demonstration of the new G gage system with battery backup is very impressive. The Lenz signal seems to go through the rails even when the engine has no pick up. It's not clear how long the battery back up will last but the whole idea makes me really re-think the battery powered system I use now. With regard to rail - shouldn't matter. Even aluminum will work. The size of your line, strength of your transformer, how much power your engine(s) will draw, length and weight of your train will all affect the performance.
DCC sure has a lot of advantages. I'm not really sure about the electronics staying outdoors. Where are you located?
Neil
I run DCC outdoors and it works great. I use Aristo stainless steel. I run an NCE system with both wireless and wired cabs.
Visit my web site, and you can see the enclosures I use for my electronics.
Regards, Greg
Visit my site: http://www.elmassian.com - lots of tips on locos, rolling stock and more.
Click here for Greg's web site
I found your comment that operations, and switching, reduce battery run times to be interesting, Ralph, because my personal experience has been just the opposite. When I am doing operations, and a lot of slow speed travel and stopping and starting, my battery runtimes actually increase over steady running at a moderate speed with full load. Like others have said, doing operations, I routinely get battery runtimes of close to 5 hours on some of my engines.
Ed
If you want to run DCC with batteries, the solution is either AirWire or QSI with the Qwire receiver.
If you want to run track power, stainless steel track would require less cleaning than brass.
Have a look at RCS web site , you will find you can M/U as many locos as you want, change switches , and uncouple with radio controll ,as for using more battary power shunting it must only happen in England it doesent hapen here in Aus
Ron.
First of all let me state that it seems that Physics does not seem to be taught at the level that I am used to...So, let me start at the beginning:Force = Mass times Acceleration or F=MAThis is true wether the object is increasing in speed or decreasing in speed. Thus if it takes 4 Joules to bring the locomotive up to speed it still takes 4 Joules to slow it to a stop. (We will ignore entropy).Kinetic Energy = The Velocity Squared of the object times the Mass or KE=V2MThus if your loco travels at 1mS-1 and the mass is 1Kg then the KE is 9.81 Joules.If we increase the speed to 2mS-1 then the KE is 39.24 Joules. If we run at 3mS-1 then the KE is 88.29 Joules. So, let us start...Once the loco and train has reached steady state the battery simply has to maintain enough output to overcome limiting friction. When producing a magnetic field there are losses in the formation of the field and this is lost as heat. While the motor may be 60% efficient in transferring wattage to torque at steady state -losses during the increase of current can lower it to below 35% efficient. This net effect results in the motor drawing more current from the battery. The heating effect of the current is the square of the current drawn (I2R) thus the motor requires more cooling and is at greatest risk of burn out while in a state of variable load. Using the motor as a braking force uses more power still.I knew all this when I was 14...regardsralph
Everything you say is true and can be proven ..... but, all the knowledge of physics in the world cannot trump the experience these gentlemen have had with their trains.
When switching (shunting), the train runs at a much lower speed (lower losses), is probably pulling fewer cars, and is idle for a portion of the time compared to steady-state running. That may explain the longer battery run time when switching.
I do seem to spend quite lot of my working day doing fluid flow calculations and such like... This means that I have to be "au fait" with electric pumps or electric fans and their variable load characteristics. What I tried to explain (and they didn't even read) was the fact that a continuously variable load is faster draining of battery "life" than one of of steady state drain.
To true Walt , I am having to much enjoyment to worry about losing 5 mins off the life of a 14valt battery .Besides life is to short for that.
Cheers Ron.
I agree too, Walt. I guess I must be dreaming when I am out running my trains. I certainly agree with Ralph's computations, but I know that there are many, many variables. As you stated, it is possible that the idle time, and the shorter car loads compensates for the losses during acceleration and deceleration. I'm kind of like Ron, I just enjoy running the trains. I too typically get about 5 hours of run time on my primary engine, and Aristo RS3 or Aristo U25. That usually includes some time of running on the mainline, and some time doing switching and stacking up cars ready to go out on the mainline.
Ed, Ralph, Walt, love to read you guys, got to throw in my 2 bits worth. I've Garden RR for many years and about 2 and 1/2 years ago I switched from track power to AirWire and battery, some on 12 volt gelcell and others on 14V packs. Working the RR only on week ends (I still work age 76) I never have to recharge . My 3 truck shay does use lots of energy (3 motors) at 14v it still runs app 3 hours. I have no experience on other systems all I can say wireless and battery is the only way to go. I have Phoenix P5 sound in all of them.
Allen
Allen, I coudn't agree with you more. I switched to batter power about 4-5 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made on my garden railroad. Sometimes I think I should have gone with HO when I started my railroad about 5- 5 1/2 years ago, but I could never give up my battery power!! I realize it isn't necessarily the right answer for everyone, but for ME it is the only way to go! You have about 4 years on me, Allen, but I figure working on and running the trains is so much fun, and mentally stimulating, that it must be adding years to our life!!
Have you checked out the new Aristo/Crest Revolution Train Engineer? DSS technology with 400 ft range, MU consisting, speed matching, bidirectional com, to mention a few. G scale Beta testing is about complete. There's a lot of info on it from the beta testers in the Aristo Battery/RC forum. The manual is also available at the site. They are going to have an HO and O version of the Revolution soon.
I think RC self-propelled model trains is the way of the future. Why bother with master controls, boosters, power shields, sections, power panels, CVs, track cleaning...?
There's also a combination of battery and track power to be considered. One could have just a few sections of powered track, maybe at a fueling station or water tower, where you stop and recharge through your trucks/wheels - kinda like the real world. How about just a few sections of powered track that you run through and charge up on the run? The vast majority of the track would be un-powered, though.
Just some food for thought.DC
DC
http://uphonation.com
The lines between DCC and R/C are getting thinner and thinner, with many systems capable of handling both. Operationally, they're virtually identical on a theoretical level; in some cases on a practical level. The buttons all do the same thing--make the train go faster, slower, change direction, blow whistles, ring bells, etc. The only difference seems to be where those buttons are on the controller, and how one goes about programming them. (There are some high-end functionality differences between various manufacturers, but that doesn't affect the DCC-R/C debate.) It comes down to whether you want to clean track or install/charge batteries. In both cases, you're going to have to open up the locos to install the electronics, so that aspect of the equation is a wash.
Personally, I've been running battery R/C for 25 years. Not having to worry about wiring your track is very liberating when it comes to designing your track plans. Fitting the batteries into the locos can be a bit problematic, but with enough ingenuity, you can make them fit.
If you're planning on running many locos at once in M/U situations, track-powered DCC may be your better option, simply because that way you know all your locos are getting the same power, and that takes the worry of the middle of three locos' batteries dying out of the equation. Also (as has been said above) having track power allows you to run lights, smoke, and trackside accessories with greater ease and less worry about battery drain. On the other hand, if your operations are simpler, then onboard battery R/C will serve you very well.
Later,
K
I think very soon the "classes" will have to change.
Every major system has some form of wireless control, and the users normally do not care how that part works (other than interference issues)
So, even now I can classify things like this:
R/C systems are changing....
Greg Elmassian I think very soon the "classes" will have to change. Every major system has some form of wireless control, and the users normally do not care how that part works (other than interference issues) So, even now I can classify things like this: Track power - unmodified locos - DC to the rails Track power DCC Track power MTH (which is going DCC) Battery power DCC over the air (airwire, gwire), proprietary "decoders" Battery power proprietary over the air (everyone else), proprietary "decoders" R/C systems are changing.... Regards, Greg
You forgot me, Greg. - Track power proprietary over the air, proprietary "decoders" .
I do agree.
Don
Sorry Don! you are correct, and not a bad way to go!
Where are you in SD?
I'm in Carlsbad.
Greg,
Hi, neighbor. I'm in Ramona. I have a small HO layout at home, but do most of my running at the San Diego Model Railroad Museum. I'm a member of the SDMRR club, and the only member with RC. That's why I hang around the large scale and garden RR forums. I pick up a lot of good tips from you guys, and love to look at the photos.
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month