Track Laying..... cement?

[Nataraj]

I have modeled in small scales (N, HO) and have recently been very interested in large scale. I was looking into designing a small layout, but the only thing is that with the way my backyard is, (previous owner cemented parts of back yard instead of laying grass) the track would have to go through a section of cemented area around 20 feet long. Would laying the track on the cement, and placing cement between the ties (like light rail line in the street) be ok? Would heat/cold have any effect? Here in CA, summers can get over 100 degrees, so I don't know if if there would be any issues of cracking cement...

Thanks for the help!

[altterrain]

I have seen folks do this but only for short sections like across a sidewalk. Expansion and contraction of the rail from temperature changes can be a problem. Stainless steel will do it less so than other types of rail. Also, water getting into the wheel grooves and freezing can be another big problem though it may not be in your area. Your best bet may be to cut a groove in for the track and inlay another material on top attached with slicone. Plexiglass, styrene or ABS are possible inlay materials.

-Brian 

[ttrigg]

NataraJ

A few months back someone posted a thread here doing exactly what you are asking. Most folks that need to cross concrete cut the grove/slot for the track to fit are only going short distances like Brian said. There was the one member who went at least 20~30 feet through the patio alongside the house. Try finding that thread, as best I remember he did discuss some of the problems of do it.

[Nataraj]

Thanks for the replies. Water freezing is not much of a problem where I live, and even if we do get freezing in the night, its gone by morning. As for the cracking, how bad is it? I dont mind small cracks here and there. And I'll keep the stainless steel track in mind.

As for the inlay, between the rails (and outside the rails, from the rails to the edge of the ties), I wanted it to look like street running, so my first choice would be to pour cement over the track, leaving grooves for the wheels.

Also, I tried searching, but could not find a thread with the information I was looking for. Most were talking about using cement in a trench for roadbed, not laying track on a cement (patio/sidewalk) .

Thanks again for the replies.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Split Jaw makes a track section that can be walked and driven on for cutting into concrete.   Looks good to me when I saw it at ECLSTS.   Pricy, but I suspect more durable than anything I could do.  

Another option would be to cut the groove in the concrete, set the track in, use strip balsa to form the flangeway, and cement the rest to match the concrete; rather like the old city trackage.

[Nataraj]

Thanks,

I looked into split jaw, and it is pretty expensive. 32 bucks for each section. I like your balsa wood idea...
Another idea I thought of is maybe fill in between the rails with super fine crushed rock... like grit, while cementing the outside of the rails where the ends of the ties are. Hopefully that would give the rails more room so they wont crack the cement...

Again,
Tanks for all the input.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I doubt that the loose grit thing would work as you would have to blow or hose the flangeway from time to time to prevent derailments and you would blow away your grit.

[Nataraj]

ok, ill throw out the grit idea. I think ill go ahead with just cementing in pieces of sectional track. (cut groove, lay track in, and cement over leaving space for wheel flanges. ) The weather here in the bay area where I live dosnt usually get over 100 degrees and never really freezes, so I am hoping the cracking will be limited to small amounts.

As for cutting into the cement to make a groove to place the track into, what is the best method?

[altterrain]

As for cutting into the cement to make a groove to place the track into, what is the best method?

Time to visit your local tool rental center. There are two types of concrete cutters - the hand held one (looks like a chain saw with a big diamond blade on it) and a bigger version with wheels on it (more expensive to rent but it will make controlling the depth of your cut much easier and uniform). You'll pay for the rental of the tool and amount of use of the diamond blade. Both usually have a hose hook up to keep dust down. Gloves, ear plugs, dust mask and safety glasses are a must. Cut a series of grooves and chisel out the rest.

For concrete I would use an acrylic fortified sand mix or vinyl concrete patcher. Cut thin strips of  1/8" thick masonite hardboard to set along the rail for the wheel flangeways. Put the smooth side towards the concrete side and paint a bit of used motor oil on it to make it easier to pull out later.

-Brian 

[Nataraj]

As for cutting into the cement to make a groove to place the track into, what is the best method?

Time to visit your local tool rental center. There are two types of concrete cutters - the hand held one (looks like a chain saw with a big diamond blade on it) and a bigger version with wheels on it (more expensive to rent but it will make controlling the depth of your cut much easier and uniform). You'll pay for the rental of the tool and amount of use of the diamond blade. Both usually have a hose hook up to keep dust down. Gloves, ear plugs, dust mask and safety glasses are a must. Cut a series of grooves and chisel out the rest.

For concrete I would use an acrylic fortified sand mix or vinyl concrete patcher. Cut thin strips of  1/8" thick masonite hardboard to set along the rail for the wheel flangeways. Put the smooth side towards the concrete side and paint a bit of used motor oil on it to make it easier to pull out later.

-Brian 

Thanks! Sounds good to me.

and since im not sure if am going track power, or battery power, I think i will go ahead and put in feeder wires to the track so I dont have to dig up the cement later on if I do decode on track power. And I think having the wires hidden would look better as well.

Again, Thanks for the help

[rpc7271]

I use GE Silicon II to glue my track down. All of the roadbed is concrete. I fill a tie every 6 inches or so and then put it in place. Hold it down with bricks every foot or so. I have had LGB track outside glued down by this method for 5 years. The silicon dries into a slightly flexable rubber that alows just a very little bit of expansion. I live in Arizona where the temp gets to 120 in the summer and  below 30 degrees (sometimes) in the winter. I lay most of my track in the summer when it is above 100 degrees and let the rail aclament itself to the temp outside. If I do lay track when it is colder I allow about a 1/16 inch gap between the sections for expansion in the summer. Juse a warning, once the silicon sets it can be almost impossibel to get it up so make sure you do it right the first time.

[Nataraj]

I use GE Silicon II to glue my track down. All of the roadbed is concrete. I fill a tie every 6 inches or so and then put it in place. Hold it down with bricks every foot or so. I have had LGB track outside glued down by this method for 5 years. The silicon dries into a slightly flexable rubber that alows just a very little bit of expansion. I live in Arizona where the temp gets to 120 in the summer and  below 30 degrees (sometimes) in the winter. I lay most of my track in the summer when it is above 100 degrees and let the rail aclament itself to the temp outside. If I do lay track when it is colder I allow about a 1/16 inch gap between the sections for expansion in the summer. Juse a warning, once the silicon sets it can be almost impossibel to get it up so make sure you do it right the first time.

What do you mean by "fill a tie every 6 inches or so" ?

Also, do you cut a groove in your concrete, or just lay your track directly on it with the silicone to hold it down?

Thanks

[altterrain]

I think he means he uses concrete roadbed and the track sits on top of it. To adhere the track to the roadbed, he fills the underside of a tie with silicone about every 6 inches of track and then flips it right side up to install the track. Not quite pertinent to this discussion.

-Brian 

[Anonymous]

How does Peter Jones do the rail like he does? Looks in parts he creets it????!!! Not sure????

Toad

 

[Nataraj]

I think he means he uses concrete roadbed and the track sits on top of it. To adhere the track to the roadbed, he fills the underside of a tie with silicone about every 6 inches of track and then flips it right side up to install the track. Not quite pertinent to this discussion.

-Brian 

Ah, ok. Thanks for the clarification.

[Nataraj]

Just ordered a K-27 from trainworld for $699!!!!

[Anonymous]

Rene, should I go direct to Jones or does he come here?

Toad

[altterrain]

Just ordered a K-27 from trainworld for $699!!!!

I'm suprised you didn't go for a MTH GS-4

 

http://www.staubintrains.com/trainshop/shopexd.asp?id=1959 

-Brian 

[Nataraj]

Just ordered a K-27 from trainworld for $699!!!!

I'm suprised you didn't go for a MTH GS-4

 

http://www.staubintrains.com/trainshop/shopexd.asp?id=1959 

-Brian 

I didnt even know MTH made a GS-4 in large scale!! Thanks!

Although for now, I am doing small operations, as my space is not that large. As you can tell, my obstacle for a large layout right now (now planned as around the house, all on cement except front lawn ) is the cement all around my house. I am glad it is all level, no steps, so thanks to all the suggestions here on the board, I am confident I can do it. For now, Ill start with an oval in the front lawn, and slowly build around the house as time permits. Little on the busy side right now. Work on the front should start next week, with the single track around my entire house (in the cement) starting late july.

Soon as I finish my loop around the house, Ill finally be able to handle long beautiful daylight, passenger, and drag freight trains! For now, short passenger trains, and maybe a freight.

[Takasaki Matt]

Why don't you send Perer an Email?  I'm sure he would give you some interesting ideas.  This is his website:

http://www.comptondown.co.uk/home.html

Though, perhaps Rene has a better way to talk to Peter.

Also go to this thread:

http://cs.trains.com/forums/1474411/ShowPost.aspx

Peter has posted here!  I suppose like many busy forum members Peter doesn't read every thread, I know I don't-  I wouldn't get any work done.

 Regards, Matthew Foster

Takasaki Light Railway.

[Anonymous]

Matt good to hear from you! How are things there?

Toad