I'm new to garden railroading....in fact, I haven't even got the dirt in place yet. I have a few questions:
1) Do you lay down any landscape fabric before you put down your track? If so, then I'm assuming you have to cut through it to put in plants? And, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of using the landscape fabric?
2) Can the track be placed on top of plastic decking "boards"? I'm looking for an easy way to lay down the track that will hold up to Wisconsin winter weather without warping. Or, would you suggest some other base for the track?
I don't have a lot of money and no expertise in this subject. Have read lots of books but they all say to dig a trench and fill it with rock and then lay the track on top of that. Sounds complicated and back breaking (not to mention very time consuming and expensive.)
Any help you can give me will be more than greatly appreciated!
I do not suffer from insanity...I enjoy every minute of it!!! Over 60 and still playing with toys!
skippygp123 wrote:Do you lay down any landscape fabric before you put down your track?Can the track be placed on top of plastic decking "boards"?
Tom Trigg
In my professional opinion using landscape fabric or weed cloth is worthless for any long term weed suppression. The weeds will eventually grow or root through it. It does have it use for placing between the soil and crushed stone to keep your crushed stone from sinking into the soil. Same for using under base material for paver patios. The spun nylon material is also good for keeping dirt out of weeping or french drains. I will also use weed cloth (the kind with the tiny holes in it) out in the veggie garden. Other than that is worthless. It will just make the weeds hard to pull later on.
Besides the tried and true trench-n-fill method, there is concrete roadbed, raised ladder track methods and I have seen pressure treated lumber used. I would not use composite decking on the ground due to mold/mildew issues I mentioned in another post.
-Brian
Brian knows more than me about landscaping and Garden Railroads. But I can say we have had trex composite decking down on the ground, as a path, for eight years now with no problems. It's set on pressure treated 2x4 sleepers which are bedded in gravel.
The method that worked best for me has been the ladder method. It's especially easy if you use flex track or have a track bender
A few years ago there was a class action lawsuit against Trex because of mold/mildew issue and it was settled out of court. A few mold or mildew spots may not bother you under your track. How bad they get has to do with a variety of environmental factors. This is a balanced article on the issue - http://magazinearticles.angieslist.com/FeaturedArticles/2005_05.htm.
skippygp123, We still need to know where you are from so a person in that region can help you abit more and tell there story.
As for what Brain sayes about weed fabric, it is crap, always will be, and it will never keep weeds out of anything. Sad to say but customers of mine just had to have that stuff so I charged them going rate + labor when we placed it down.
I fully not sold on plastic lumber so I can say nothing. But can I build a Train Building with it? I am on the Gulf Coast so when Hurricane time comes love to see if it holds up.
Toad
I used the Trex decking when I rebuilt our balconey, the stuff is heavy as hell and when it soaks up a little heat after sitting in the sun it's like picking up a dish rag. If it is available the HDPE composite is much better, I used it for my flagstone wash crossing. Did learn that make sure you have a very sharp and clean saw blade otherwise it likes to heatup when ripping causing some size variations.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
Skippy, as you may have surmised from some of the answers, what works in the Frozen tundra of the North may not work in the Desert Southwest. The humidity of the Gulf Coast and the Mid-Atlantic is a factor that must be considered.
It would be a good idea to go back and update your info to show an area where you are located. Don't be too specific (don't want the copper thieves to get your track, do we??), but something like Philly, LA, Chicago, or a general area like my lower Delaware will do nicely and permit better answers to your questions.
Having hefted Trex and watched how floppy it can get in warm weather; I'd not use it. I'd worry about any plastic after watching the great rates of expansion and contraction in my vinyl siding.
I still prefer a good base of crushed stone (about 3/4 inch) which is 3-5 inches deep, let the track float on top of the base, and use 1/4 minus (or the coarse agreggate that the local plant uses to make concrete block) for ballast. I see some heat movement in my stainless track, and that has a lower expansion factor than brass or other materials. I really haven't had any serious problems with frost heave that a gentle packing in the spring hasn't handled.
There are different variations on the ladder method. Basically, you have two stringers spaced apart supported by posts.
I use closed cell PVC wood (Home Depot's Tufboard). I rip down 1"x6" into 4 strips of about 1"x1.5" (really 3/4" x 1 3/8"). You can also buy it in a 1"x2" size. I space them with pressure treated wood 2"x2" and use 1" PVC pipe supports (they are also 1.5" wide like the 2"x2").
Like they say a picture says a thousand words -
Track laying class at Brian Donovan's, April (click on the pics for a bigger version)
Some other threads on the ladder method -
http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=6204
http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=7407
http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=9069
I agree with the comments that "weed-supressing" fabric is a waste of effort.
The plastic decking boards may well work, but shaping them for curves may be a problem. This same concept is offered by the extruded PVC-based roadbed system offered by Splitjaw products. I used that system for my base/roadbed. I don't have Wisconsin winters (left the upper Midwest as soon as I finished high school and don't miss the 20 degrees below zero), but do have very warm summers here in South Carolina.
For me, ADVANTAGES of the PVC-based roadbed incuded: I was available in various diameters and lengths to allow construction; Installation and setting of grades was rather easy using standard PVC pipe driven through the roadbed into the earth; It has held Krylon grey paint even in the sun; 14 months in place without needing any major adjustment (but note related comment in DISadvantages).
My experience of DISadvantages include: The depressions atop the material don't really hold ballast in place; It is rather expensive, especially if you are planning a large system (mine is a rather small RR); Despite the advertising, the nylon clasps holding the pieces together have broken at numerous places and the roadbed has then separated at the joints (increasing the % of the track that is truely "floating" rather than fastened down seems to have helped this, but some of the gaps now exceed 1/2 inch).
Reviewing the materials on this extruded PVC-based product may give you some ideas on how to apply plastic decking boards to this garden railroad application. Most of those plastic decking boards I have seen come in "plank" dimensions - like 1 1/2" thick. I know of a large dance floor made up of those plastic decking boards that has held up very well fully exposed to the weather for at least 3 or 4 years now, and in an area that does have freezing & heat both.
Bill
Brian,
How far down do you plant those 1" PVC pipe supports?
Thanks,
Steve
My track will only be elevated about a foot and I'm planting them about a foot. For taller supports usually about 50% of the height of the post is the rule (eg - 18" planted for a 3 foot post).
Skippy I've been garden railroading for about 15 years and have built two railroads, one in the Sacramento Valley, the other in the Sierra Nevada. I don't consider myself cheap but thrifty. I simply grade the right of way with natural dirt. Like the prototype I lay track on the ground, pour Decomposed Granite over it, lift the track abit above the ground and working it between the ties as a move along while checking grade. I don't need no stinking landscape fabric or track boards.
If it works don't touch it.
Good luck Rob
Terrific. Thanks Brian.
Regards,
Unlike g gage just up the hill, I am cheap. I also, just laid the track on the dirt, using code 250 aluminum rail in six foot sections. Where the sections join, I put a 6x6 (inch for those of you overseas) trex block under the joint, buried the block about halfway in the soil, and screwed the track to the block. Then I could level between the blocks and also make slightly superelevated curves. Between the blocks, I poured ballast (which is a whole 'nuther story, finding he right stuff). Then I raised and leveled the track side to side and longitudinally. Looks good, and saved me $29 an eight foot section for trex (that's the price in today's Lowe's flyer).
BTW, I got my trex as scraps from a builder putting in a new deck. The scraps are hard to get rid of in CA, 'cuz you can't put them in most landfills.
I've not experienced expansion of trex, but I do note it has little strength, and tends to "drape" over the ground. The short pieces don't do that.
skippy, I live in nw michigan(probably just accross the lake from you). Where are you in Wi.??? My first layout was on an old sandbox made out of 4x8" RR ties with treated decking on top of them. I placed my track on top of that with 1" nails. I didn't have any trouble with warping and I just took up the track this summer to raise it up to a better level for access from my wheelchair. I have heard of the ladder method but have not seen it in use anywhere.
If you are near the Illinois border you should come to the national GRR convention in 2012 at st charles, Il(near Elgin).
As for the plastic decking, go ahead with your plan to use it. I made a wheelchair ramp this spring out of it and it is in direct sunlight about 8 hours a day and nothing has happened to it yet. If you would like to write me, my email address is reuben3185@aol.com
I have been in this hobby since 1989 and have built 3 layouts; one in Ontario Canada, and two in Michigan....all in zone 5 or slightly colder, so I suspect my experience is close to your situation. We are in the midst of moving north to the Petoskey MI area and so plans are being formulated for layout #4 there.
I have tried to use landscape fabric for a number of purposes. The only thing it seems to be good for is stopping materials from mixing, such as between the bare ground and gravel, or along the backside of a retaining wall so fill doesn't seep out through the joints. The woven or spun type fabric is best, the perforated plastic stuff will be a nightmare later on down the road when doing maintenence. Personally, I recommend not using it except for those two purposes listed. Weeds will break through it, and then you'll have an even bigger mess trying to pull them and lifting the fabric with them.
As for your original question about plastic decking; I strongly recommend against it and the entire method of track on plank roadbed. My experience is that the plastic decking is really composite decking and includes a percentage of recycled wood fiber. It expands and shrinks significantly more than wood, is much heavier, is not as stiff as equal size lumber (hence the coments from others about it sagging or draping over the ground), is much more expensive than wood, and tends to absorb water when left in direct contact with the soil.
I used the track on plank approach on layouts #1 and 2 and learned not to use that style ever again in zone 5 or colder. Layout 1 actually faired better, I used cedar for that one. Layout #2 used pressure treated 5/4 decking. I learned the hard way that pressure treated that is available at most do it yourself box stores is not that great to start with, and is definintely not intended for direct ground coontact. It's stands up well if used as elevated decking and can dry out on all sides, but lay it on the grouund and it will absorb water, warp, and rot. The real problem as listed by a few others is the freeze/thaw cycles; it can and will heave your layout by several inches in one year. I planted posts deep in the ground every 4 to 6 feet, anchored with concrete and well below the forst line. They worked great and didn't move. Unfortunately the planks between the posts heaved in their mid sections. I then tried to fix it by scooping out the fill beneath the planks leaving a 1 to 2 inch air gap beneath them to eliminate ground contact and the earth pushing the planks up. That was 'ok' but just seemed to start a string of other little maintence problems. No matter what way you put wood on or in the ground, or if it is pressure treated or not, it is still wood and it will rot away eventually.
Layout #3 is a modified version of the track on ground approach and it seems to be working great so far (4+ years). The trick to this method in our area is to have a deeper than average trench (8 to 12") and using coarser washed gravel as a sub roadbed that has incredible drainge. A layer of landscape fabric on top of that, then 2" of crusher fine or paver base, then your track on top of that. The key to success is exceptional drainge.
I have seen the ladder approach written up but never in use in our area so I can't suggest anything about it.
good luck!
mid michigan steamer wrote: I have been in this hobby since 1989 and have built 3 layouts; one in Ontario Canada, and two in Michigan....all in zone 5 or slightly colder, so I suspect my experience is close to your situation. We are in the midst of moving north to the Petoskey MI area and so plans are being formulated for layout #4 there.I have tried to use landscape fabric for a number of purposes. The only thing it seems to be good for is stopping materials from mixing, such as between the bare ground and gravel, or along the backside of a retaining wall so fill doesn't seep out through the joints. The woven or spun type fabric is best, the perforated plastic stuff will be a nightmare later on down the road when doing maintenence. Personally, I recommend not using it except for those two purposes listed. Weeds will break through it, and then you'll have an even bigger mess trying to pull them and lifting the fabric with them.As for your original question about plastic decking; I strongly recommend against it and the entire method of track on plank roadbed. My experience is that the plastic decking is really composite decking and includes a percentage of recycled wood fiber. It expands and shrinks significantly more than wood, is much heavier, is not as stiff as equal size lumber (hence the coments from others about it sagging or draping over the ground), is much more expensive than wood, and tends to absorb water when left in direct contact with the soil. I used the track on plank approach on layouts #1 and 2 and learned not to use that style ever again in zone 5 or colder. Layout 1 actually faired better, I used cedar for that one. Layout #2 used pressure treated 5/4 decking. I learned the hard way that pressure treated that is available at most do it yourself box stores is not that great to start with, and is definintely not intended for direct ground coontact. It's stands up well if used as elevated decking and can dry out on all sides, but lay it on the grouund and it will absorb water, warp, and rot. The real problem as listed by a few others is the freeze/thaw cycles; it can and will heave your layout by several inches in one year. I planted posts deep in the ground every 4 to 6 feet, anchored with concrete and well below the forst line. They worked great and didn't move. Unfortunately the planks between the posts heaved in their mid sections. I then tried to fix it by scooping out the fill beneath the planks leaving a 1 to 2 inch air gap beneath them to eliminate ground contact and the earth pushing the planks up. That was 'ok' but just seemed to start a string of other little maintence problems. No matter what way you put wood on or in the ground, or if it is pressure treated or not, it is still wood and it will rot away eventually.Layout #3 is a modified version of the track on ground approach and it seems to be working great so far (4+ years). The trick to this method in our area is to have a deeper than average trench (8 to 12") and using coarser washed gravel as a sub roadbed that has incredible drainge. A layer of landscape fabric on top of that, then 2" of crusher fine or paver base, then your track on top of that. The key to success is exceptional drainge. I have seen the ladder approach written up but never in use in our area so I can't suggest anything about it. good luck!
Skippy, although not the best design or example, here is what I did using trex boards ripped down to make my track supports elevated. Barry
http://cs.trains.com/forums/1475366/ShowPost.aspx
I agree that plastic lumber like "Trex" is not suitable for roadbed unless cut into strips and built up into "splined" roadbed ala LPT.
I've experimented with a few raised roadbed "tables" using Trex as a footer screwed onto the bottom of PTL 2"x4" legs. The whole railroad (tables) floats because it is on the surface of the ground and not anchored to it. I've found that the frost heaves tend to affect the whole structure equally so track alignment remains essentilly unchanged.
The roadbed can be PTL boards or channels filled with crusher fines. Both methods seem to work well because the structure that supports them is relatively stable.
We've just moved into a new home in northeast Ohio and when I start construction on my new railroad I'm going to use this method.
Good luck,
Walt
Mainline Enterprise has a PVC-based product designed specifically for this. Although very expensive, it's quite cost effective in terms of simplicity, ease of installation, etc. when compared to conventional methods. Unlike traditional trenching, if you make a mistake, it's a piece of cake to recover from it (them). If you plan on having multple grades, bridges, etc., you can't beat it.
Check out: http://www.gardenrailwayproducts.com/
Split Jaw recently took of the Mainline Product Line and now offers the complete line in black so no pre-installation painting is required.
Get the Garden Railways newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month