Well, not exactly indoor plumbing....
I'm designing an indoor layout. I am considering putting in an actual runnning river, complete with falling water and goldfish, using aquarium stuff.
Has anyone tried this? Other than the obvious necessities of solid benchwork and non-leaking watercourses, are there any, er, alligators in swamps to be aware of? I have fish and am prepared to take care of same on layout.
Les W.
#1 HUMIDITY.
CHUCK
Indoor running water?
Humidity? I would be more concerned that humidity would affect the sheet-rock walls.
I would believe that if you make your benchwork sturdy enough you should be able to build your "water feature" the same way we build them outside. Pond liner membrane, real rocks, use your filter housing as we use the water outfall. Since this is going to be indoors, you will need to seriously watch the water levels. As the water falls over your rapids and falls remember, real water splashes. If you splash enough, you will be loosing a lot of water to the surrounding "landscape". Recommend that you have your water "out-take" from your "lake" to be no farther down into the water than one third. Should you then loose water tight plumbing, you would not pump your lake dry thus "expiring" your fish.
Tom Trigg
hoofe116 wrote: Well, not exactly indoor plumbing....I'm designing an indoor layout. I am considering putting in an actual runnning river, complete with falling water and goldfish, using aquarium stuff.Has anyone tried this? Other than the obvious necessities of solid benchwork and non-leaking watercourses, are there any, er, alligators in swamps to be aware of? I have fish and am prepared to take care of same on layout.Les W.
Say Les,
You ever visited this area ? Home of the Rat Factory here in Florida.....
Well anyway, the Toy Train Museum had it for years, in the last layout, for about 8 years or so, it had two water falls, ponds, river and all, with liners and pumps, similar to the same technics used in design, for out-of-doors water effects.
Most of the layout was built up on bench work, similar to any indoor type of layout that you would design, using the common bench work technics....
I have heard that they just recently closed it up, gonna have to check that one out......
Byron
Here in Arizona, where I run two humidifiers except during our summer rainy season, humidity would be an advantage. My concern would be the formation of algea, mineral and alkaline deposits, mold and mildew, even in constantly flowing water unless it is kept treated with enough chemicals to prevent those things. And then you run the risk of the chemicals killing the fish.
cacole wrote: Here in Arizona, where I run two humidifiers except during our summer rainy season, humidity would be an advantage. My concern would be the formation of algea, mineral and alkaline deposits, mold and mildew, even in constantly flowing water unless it is kept treated with enough chemicals to prevent those things. And then you run the risk of the chemicals killing the fish.
In answer to these concerns expressed here, Les W.....I don't think there was any fish in any of the ponds at the Train Museum, nor can I tell you about the specific way the water was KEPT CLEAN, and it was, too.
I do know that humidity was never a problem though, all in an A/C'd environment and all.....You know.....Hot Box, central Florida.....
Les,
At the Museum, as I said, they used the same technics as you would out-side.....Rubber liners and all, no small pre-made ponds, with rock, pond pebbles, concrete, even some fiber-glass, they had two huge strait-down water-falls about 5 foot high or so....
SNOWSHOE wrote:You can use the hard plastic fish ponds. UsuallyLowes has them in different sizes and they have ponds, streams and waterfalls. You can pile rocks or paver stones around them to look more natrual. That might be your best bet. For humidity get a dehumidifier.
Thought you was just doing your 1st pond/s?
Toad
Cacole,
You've hit on the one thing that's giving me pause: mineral/alkalines & algae growth along the watercourse. On the one hand, it would look natural, since it is, on the other, it might easily get out of hand and look corroded and slimy. I dunno. My fish tank, which sits at my right elbow as I type, is streaked with mineral deposits outside, from water condensing on the lid and leaking down. Periodically my wife scrubs it off.
Thanks for the input from you other folks, too. Humidity in St. Louis is terrible in the summertime; the area I'm using will be air-conditioned, so I don't expect a lot of difficulty from that, plus I have wooden panel walls and vinyl-covered ceilings.
Also, I'm nowhere near a 5' waterfall. My total overhead is only 7-1/2 feet. My notion was/is to put the actual water reservoir on the floor, pump it up to the top of the highest point, and direct it downward in a series of 1"-6" waterfalls, the last being into the 'fish tank' area. This is the only place that would need solid support, and I thought to limit it to ten gallons, that'd be about 80#, if memory serves.
The one drawback is evaporation. You'd be amazed at how much water even a covered 20 gal fishtank loses in a week. I have to lug water upstairs, and I don't like to do that. Thus, my ongoing generations of guppies seem to be evolving lungs. I could run a copper line up here (second floor). Been considering that for awhile.
I think what I'll do, as my benchwork develops and track is laid, I'll keep it in mind and add it at a later date.
Thanks again to all who took time to reply.
MRR did a feature on this in the early '90s on the Crown Mountain RR in O scale. At some point I can dig up the article, but the bottom line is that you have to compensate for weight of water plus the support structure, make sure it's all leak proof, and use non water soluble scenery materials. Apart from that, have at it.
Humidity from your water feature will be negligible, I would be more worried about radioactive xenon that naturally occurs in the atmosphere than water damaged sheetrock from an indoor water pond. If you do not want live animals or plants, then a cup of bleach in your water from time to time will keep the algae away. My outdoor goldfish do an excellent job of keeping the algae out, I just don't feed them very much fish food and they much away very happily on the natural algae. Mineral deposits can be avoided by using only distilled water.
Everything has a plus and minus. I feel that an indoor real water feature may well be worth dealing with the minuses in this case. Worst case scenario is that you find the maintenance too much to handle, then simply drain out the water and use a standard clear resin and fake fish.
I have also toyed with the idea of indoor water features. I have an unfinished room over the garage and a lot of things I want to try out, so maybe later this summer.....
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Suggestion. Sheetrock sealer and Marine Paint/s both water handy. 3 centz
SNOWSHOE wrote:I would avoid glass fish tanks. You would be better off with the hard plastic garden ponds. You can get then in different shapes and you dont have to worry about leaks like on glass. Plus you dont have to worry about cracking the glass. Over time the hard plastic will last longer.
Definitely a plastic (or polymer--i.e. non-metal) 'pond'. I want it rather shallow (~6" D) and wide. I figure a 6" waterfall would act as an aerator. The filter would have to be disguised, possibly a submerged one. The whole thing would sit on a structure that sits on the floor rather than hanging on benchwork. A pump & hose would lead water back to the 'holding tank' which definitely would sit on the floor. Possibly another filter there. That way there'd be no downangled 'gravity feed' to get in the way under the bench. Then another pump to shove the water column up to the peak of the hill and eject it into the channel, though possibly I could get away with just one pump, the one in the holding tank. There's a natural formation in a bluff east of the Mississippi that throws about a 4' thick column of water out, which then free-falls about 50 feet to a rock basin.
Definitely no fishtanks.
Les:
Looks to me like the consensus of opinion is to build the indoor water feature. I for on will anxiously await the first of many photos of construction.
ttrigg wrote: Les:Looks to me like the consensus of opinion is to build the indoor water feature. I for on will anxiously await the first of many photos of construction.
You're gonna have to wait awhile. Basement rehabbing not yet completed, wife's studio still I/W, electric to run to the 'model shop' (a space where I can move all my modelworking tools and instruments and organize and store the junk I've collected up the past year). A/C units to buy and install, and then ... maybe then, I can start actually building benchwork. I've decided to run a waterline & drain line upstairs to service the pond, too. Just some off-the-cuff estimates tell me there's gonna be 'way more than 20 gals of water. That's gonna take some time/work.
I do have some stuff going: my first project, a stationary steam and compressor plant; I've solved the problem of 'strap iron' rails: strap copper; and I'm building my first pieces of cladded plastic track for the 'feeder line' that connects my SL with the outside world. And a test track. I'm working on these as the mood strikes.
hoofe116 wrote: SNOWSHOE wrote:I would avoid glass fish tanks. You would be better off with the hard plastic garden ponds. You can get then in different shapes and you dont have to worry about leaks like on glass. Plus you dont have to worry about cracking the glass. Over time the hard plastic will last longer.Definitely a plastic (or polymer--i.e. non-metal) 'pond'. I want it rather shallow (~6" D) and wide. I figure a 6" waterfall would act as an aerator. The filter would have to be disguised, possibly a submerged one. The whole thing would sit on a structure that sits on the floor rather than hanging on benchwork. A pump & hose would lead water back to the 'holding tank' which definitely would sit on the floor. Possibly another filter there. That way there'd be no downangled 'gravity feed' to get in the way under the bench. Then another pump to shove the water column up to the peak of the hill and eject it into the channel, though possibly I could get away with just one pump, the one in the holding tank. There's a natural formation in a bluff east of the Mississippi that throws about a 4' thick column of water out, which then free-falls about 50 feet to a rock basin. Definitely no fishtanks.Les W.
Just make sure you get a strong enough pump. The the longer the hose and the higher it is from the pumps means you need a stronger pump. You have to take gravity into consideration. Lowes usually has a good selection of pumps and hard plastic tubes. They have all different types from ponds to streams to waterfalls. They are priced reasonable. Good luck and post some pictures.
What I would love to do someday is put up a solar room onto my house and do a garden RR inside that. That way you can have real plants and dirt. Just like outside except it would be inside. Anyone ever do this. I think my next house will have this.
FJ and G wrote:don't let the naysayers stop you from your dreams. Algea forms outside as well. Some people out West need humidity. I'd take the necessary precautions such as waterproofing and so on. While at it, why not lamps for real foliage (or erect in sunroom). A greenhouse would be the best of both worlds actually!
I'm as sure at this point that I can be that I'll have a pond. Friend Wife thinks it's a great idea. (She's a fish person--she also wants to to the scenery and landscaping on the RR).
The indoor lights are definitely worth thinking about. I'll either need or want illum over the trainboard, why not grow-lights? Also, since FW is a plant person too, we winter over a motley collection of houseplants (they look motley about this time of the year, after a winter indoors). I've already decided I have to leave passageways to two of the windows for access, I think they'll have plant shelves on them. But that's okay, I'll either build a hinge-up trestle(s) or lift-up scenery. In St.L. we get weeks of overcast--has something to do with the confluence of the two big rivers. This winter I didn't put any up, too many $$ going for the water damage from last spring and the unexpected growth of my wife's art business which necessitated bigger quarters. What that has to do with anything is, that's why I have no benchwork up after a year, or models built.
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