Hi All,
I'm just getting back into trains after building a few HO layouts when I was a kid. And I'm jumping back into the hobby with both feet. I've decided to graduate to G scale and to make it even more interesting/complicated, I'm planning on building my own suspension layout on an outdoor patio at my restaurant here in the mountains of Colorado in Grand Lake. All of this combines to make this project pretty challanging to say the least, and I have a few factors to overcome:
1) The weather. Grand Lake gets about 10' of snow on avererage every winter and gets quite cold as well, sometimes -30 at night. And on the opposite end of the spectrum, the summer sun is quite intense at 8400 feet of elevation.
2) Safety. The layout must be safe because the patio seats 120 people many of which are childern. And, as much as I love the little devils, kids will be kids and they will find any weakness and exploit it.
3) Engineering. How do I fasten the shelving to the building? What material do I use for shelving? Flex track or Sectional? Brass or Stainless? Etc, etc, etc...
I do already have some ideas about how I'm going to overcome these challanges, but I'd like to tap into your vast knowledge and experience. I'm very handy and have a large assortment of tools and I'm not afraid to use them. In addition, I close the restaurant down every Spring for a month in April so I have a solid month to work on this project. So any and all constructive help and suggestions is welcomed. Thanks to all in advance!
Max
Age is only a state of mind, keep the mind active and enjoy life
There are many manufacturers of suspended systems. Another alternative since you sound like a frustrated wood butcher is to look at the ads, get propaganda packages on some you like, and build your own. It's not a new idea to have a suspended layout in a resturant setting, and i'd think if you did a simple loop without any switches, it should be trouble free.
Having sees a few at various establishments, something you can see thru from below is most desireable compared to a solid bottom type thing.
Since you will be outside, I would suggest some sort of wide rack system (Aristo makes but one of the many). Why? What happens in a sudden summer squall when a gust of wind blows the train off the track? Don't want an 18 pound engine falling on some sue happy customer's head! You might want to look at the liability and insurance angles of the thing; a good wide grid unit which would prevent falls like that should make it very safe and show good effort to make it as safe as possible!
Perhaps a plexiglas sidewall or taught wire would help in securing aginst fall off!
Hate to be a party pooper, but you really need to look at that unless you suddenly want a partner owning a good hunk of the business.
Things to keep in mind:
1) Liability. Anything falls on a customer's head and you're at the mercy of the customer. Bob offers a good suggestion about using plexiglas or wire. Back in 2002, I installed an overhead loop in the main dining room of a restaurant in Ann Arbor, Mi. There were two places in which the train had to traverse across an opening in the dining room, in other words, it couldn't travel along the wall. At those points, one being ten feet in length, the other eighteen, I made Howe Truss Bridges using a simple plan laid out by George Schreyer on his website. I don't know the site address off the top of my head but a simple Google search on his name will net it pretty quickly. If you're handy with tools and have a good collection of them, you might find this to be an interesting side project and will lend an additional attraction to your layout. If, IF, you decide to do this, minimize the amount of horizontal cross members connecting the bridge at the top. It'll make it a lot easier to get in there and clean the track.
2) Maintenance. You want to spend as little time as you have to up on a ladder cleaning track. This is a thankless job when dealing with track powered layouts but is exacerbated a hundred fold when you have to go up the ladder, clean a section, go down the ladder, move the ladder, repeat, repeat, repeat. Those that have bought stainless track swear by it and I've heard the same mantra repeated on several internet G scale train boards. Run several feeders from the main power line coming from your power supply. Voltage wise, it's only about a 1/4 to 1/2 volt difference from your power supply to the furthest point on a 200ft layout, but it's amazing how much slower your train will run if the track is a little dirty.
3) Reliability of operation. Some will argue this but the only trains that I have found that run reliably in a commercial operation for hours and hours on end with little or no care are LGB. That's not to say I don't like the other manufacturers, as most of my home equipment is Aristocraft. It's just a fact of life that LGB is near bulletproof in it's construction. You will come to find over time that you will be getting phone calls from customers wanting to know if the trains are running. As long as you say yes, that's pretty much a guarranty that you'll see them in your place within the next couple of hours. Trust me, your restaurant will come to be known locally as the "train" restaurant.
4) Trackwork/roadbed. If it's outside and the elements can get at it, make sure you use some sort of roadbed that can easily drain. If you're going to build your own, I'd suggest using Cedar or Redwood. PT Lumber tends to warp as it dries out. Cedar and redwood have a much straighter grain and are naturally rot resistent, especially above grade. If you can swing it, make your curves a minimum of 8ft diameter. Most trains look much better going over larger curves. If you can't swing 8ft, then 5ft will work but will tend to bog down loco's even as small as an LGB Mogul. I'll reiterate here that protection from fall is paramount on curves. If the train is going to fall, this is most likely where it'll happen.
5) Miscellaneous. Set the train up high enough so that young hands can't reach them. If it's possible, designate an area that can easily be converted should you wish to change trains during the day. As much as sound is cool to a customer, after about twenty minutes of the chugging and bell and whistle blowing at the same inteval over and over again, it'll start to get on the nerves of you and your employees. Consider making sure that the sound is turned down low enough so as not to be a pain to those you need the most. Don't know what your building is made from but if it's concrete, you can use anchors if it's a solid wall, butterfly bolts if it's a block wall, (I'd recommend 4") and if it's wood, large hex head screws will work. Just remember to waterproof any points that you will attach to your building. No sense creating problems with water damage from leaks you created. Keep your layout dead level. Elevation changes can cause problems in a suspended layout.
Hope this gives you a good start and helps you avoid the same pitfalls I ran into building mine. Take pictures during construction and post them. We'd like to see your progress.
Mark
Max - Might you be able to post a few pictures of your patio area where you intend to set this up? Take some shots from different angles. I think you might atract some more ideas that are less generic and more specific to your situation. There are a lot of experienced large scalers that frequent this forum who have built suspended pikes themselves or who have seen others' construction up close and personal.
Al
Al,
Posting pictures is a good idea except for the 3-4 feet of snow on the patio might make it hard for you guys to get a good idea of what we're talking about. But I'll give it a try. Thanks for the suggestion.
Mark,
Thanks for taking the time to give me such a detailed, informative reply. Your post spurred some thoughts:
The layout I have in mind will use two large bridges over high traffic areas, so safety is a big concern. I'm not sure where I'm going to get these bridges yet (suggestions?) but they both will have to have sides on them to protect the people below.
I actually did think ahead on track cleaning issue and I secured an LGB Track Cleaning Car. My 'G guy' at my Denver hobby shop (Cabosse) told me it was the only way to fly. Hopefully this, combined with stainless track will keep my track cleaning time to a minimum. My 'G guy' also echoed your feeling that LGB was the best way to go for locomotives running all day in a restaurant environment. Although I'm having a hard time finding one that I like AND that I can afford.
You suggested Cedar or Redwood, which I'm considering, but what about Composite Decking Material? It won't warp or twist, I won't have to paint it (it comes in an assort ment of colors), and it will probably out-last me. It's more expensive than real wood but maybe in the long run worth the extra cost because of the durability and weather resistance?
Anyone else with some input?
Thanks,
First off nice to see some one from Grand Lake here, we left there in the early to mid 70's. Loved the area and the scenery but at that time it was essentially a summer only economy and the 27hr days and 8 day weeks got to old.
Good suggestions all, if you do go with making your own roadbed allow an extra wide tie every 12" or so about half that on curves these could be used to install a post for stringing a stainless steel retention cable. I tried working with some of the composite woods, not Trex the one using pop bottles(HDPE), and I had a very difficult time with it. Eventually scrapped the idea although others have had good results, maybe patience isn't one of my virtues. If the budget is not an issue I would go with clear heart redwood or mahogoney.
Good luck.
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Thanks to All,
What issues/problems have you all had with synthetic/composite wood products? I wouldn't mind using Redwood because it looks nice and it's cheaper than synthetic but I'm afraid that natural wood products will not stand-up as well in the very harsh elements here in the mountains. My main goal is the SAFETY of this RR, and if natural wood warps and/or buckles and causes an unsafe condition and potential derailments, then I will have to completely shut it down until I can fix it. And if it turns into a battle to keep the track safe then the whole thing will not be worth the trouble. So I'd rather spend the cash up front for low maintaince materials (ie: Stainless Track, and Composite Road Bed, etc) than save some money up front and have to constantly have to adjust/fix it to keep it running.
I'm also not as concerned with how the lay-out LOOKS as I am with how it WORKS. So authenticity (running the right engine with the proper rolling stock or scale, or those ties don't fit with that loco's era) is not a big concern for me. I don't think an 8 year old kid eating his burger is going to care if a certain loco would never have pulled that particular refer car. And quite frankly, neither do I. If it works well, I'm gonna run it.
Max,
What type of patio do you have ? Is it completely open, covered or partially covered as a pergola would be ? If I can find it, lost the info with a computer crash, I'll post a link to a site that used HDPE decking material. It isn't a direct application but could be the basis for an overhead system with some minor changes.
Forgot to say .
The planned lay-out will have both covered (large Gazebo and building-overhang) and uncovered (along a fence line, no cover what so ever) areas. Both bridges (about 10-12 feet) will be completely uncovered. My first thought was to use Trex, but after a few negative comments about it here, I'm not so sure now. Although, I'm not 100% sure why Trex is a poor product to use in this application. I think it's because it starts to deteriorate after some time in the elements, but exactally what kind of deterioration I do not know. Again, I'm 'OK' with a little color-fade or even minor flaking and cosmetic damage. It's the warping and twisting that scare me the most.
Sorry Max, I googled most everything and anything that I could think of and couldn't find the link that I was thinking of.
Anybody else remember an article, not in GR Mag, but an on-line step-by-step article showing how to use HDPE lumber(not TREX) to do an above ground installation in an existing garden. If memory seves me correctly the demo was done in either a zoo or botannical garden in Ohio.
Thanks 'Mr. Grump',
Thanks for looking! That article sounds like it would be very helpful. Does anyone else know of any leads for me on this subject? Thanks in advance!
I'm thinking of ripping Trex or a similar decking material into 3-inch wide strips and bolting it into spline roadbed so it can be curved for an outdoor club layout. Has anyone on these forums ever done this? What are the potential pitfalls?
On a side note, a train shop in Tucson, Arizona had an elevated G-scale layout running around the ceiling in their store that used stainless steel track. After running around and around in the same direction for a couple years, the wheel flanges on the locomotive were worn into razor-blade thin, dangerously sharp edges.
Any of the Plastic wood WILL sag in the heat. ceader works well outdoors ( I am using it ) let it age first and use lots of screws . I would suggest using Lexon it will not discolor like plexeglass and it is stronger and is see thru . because of the snow I would cover it. Stainless steel track is a must. I resently rebuilt my RR with track that was stored outside on a table. to clean it I ran Slider equipped GP9 around that cleaned off the dirt. .Also, use all the screws in all the track joints. You add wires to bottom of the track where the tie strip screws are. I have been using 18 gauge outdoor direct buried wire with jumpers every 10 foot or so with very little voltage drop. Where is Grand Lake at in Colo. I will be driving to Denver next month and would like to stop by check out your location.
Dave
The head is gray, hands don't work , back is weak, legs give out, eyes are gone, money go's and my wife still love's Me.
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