Transistor for Bachmann K-27

[Curmudgeon]

Check the modification pages in the links section.

Been done.

[two tone]

Well guys and girls, That has certanley raised a few comments, but are you all missing one point advice is great but what is the best answer after a few comments seem to not marry up. What I would have done had it been me was to ask there manufacturer of the unit for a modiforcation/ update  or a remidy for the situation you are in looking at all the posts I think one or two where getting hot under the collar. Take it easy not one needs a heart attack over it. Enjoy our hobby

[Anonymous]

Would like to see a design schematic drawn out for this.

Toad

[TonyWalsham]

Stanley.

I am not looking for an official response from anyone.

I merely asked you some specific questions related to installations you have made and documented.

Answering my questions in the earlier post will not require any comment that could be construed as being official.
Unless of course you actually do receive remuneration from Bachmann for services rendered.  Something you deny. 
However, if you do receive remuneration from Bachmann I can understand your reluctance to be forthcoming with answers to very simple questions, in case that answer is interpreted as the policy of Bachmann.
So, assuming you are not paid by Bachmann for consulting about anything, there should be no problem answering my questions.  Now should there?

You also wrote:
**It is not my place to recommend installations of products.  That is best left to the manufacturers of the products.**

Did you not have a hand in devising this chuff signal inverter, and have you not been telling everyone about it?:

Surely that is recommending how to do an installation?

[stanames]

Tony

I am a modeler and as such enjoy this hobby a great deal.  While I do provide assistance to a wide range of manufacturers from time to time, I can not nor do I wish to speak for them.

Since you are a manufacturer of RC equipment and are looking for more official responses, I would recommend you direct you questions directly to the manufacturers you have questions about. I doubt you would wish others to officially answer such questions about your products and I suspect they would have the same opinion about their products.

Several years back the manufacturers in the smaller scales got together and worked out various methods for making installation of electronics much easier for the end user.  Kalmbach played a very key role in this evolution of this transition and in my opinion, the hobby is now much better off then it was before because of this standardization.

Installing electronics in Large Scale is often much more difficult that it is in the smaller scales.  This is do in large part to no industry wide agreements.  If you look at the various instructions that the manufacturers put out on their WWW sites, most are not currently plug and play and some require a great deal of effort to achieve their full functionality.  Some even provide extensive technical notes complete with opto isolators, voltage regulators  and a host of end user components that are required to fully interchange their products.  I think we can all agree that this is not the optimal method to promote the growth of our hobby.

Several years back Digitrax and AristoCraft came up with a socket concept.  Over time this socket has evolved and now is incorporated in a large number of AristoCraft products.  Note however that this socket is but one of a growing number of different and incompatible sockets being used in the industry.  In my opinion we all benefit if we can agree on one or two sockets that have more widespread use. 

Last summer various DC/DCC/RC and locomotive manufacturers discussed the need for an industry wide agreement and an extended AristoCraft design was used for the initial drafts of this proposal. The K-27 has this extended AristoCraft socket in its tender. 

Agreements take time in part because change is required and change is not easy.  Thus do not expect a quick solution that is agreeable to all.

If the industry and community decide that interchange standards are a good thing then we will eventually achieve a standard and with it products that more easily interchange.  In my opinion more plug and play components can help grow our hobby and for this reason I think the efforts are well worth the time involved to reach them.

There are several existing products that utilize the native socket and it is my understanding that several more are on the way.

In the interim there is a need to interface the products that do not currently use the native socket to the products that do have the socket.

I and others have been installing various of these products together to see how well they work.

I shared with you some ideas on doing this with other products to assist you in your thinking on how you best wanted to support this for your products

It is not my place to recommend installations of products.  That is best left to the manufacturers of the products.

I am thrilled by the release of the K-27 because my railroad needs a few bigger locomotives to haul longer trains up the hill.  This will leave the 2-8-0s on the railroad to handle the shorter or smaller runs and switching duties.  My K now runs with sound on DC, DCC and RC in a hybrid drive approach so I do not have to contend with dirty track yet still achieve all the functionality I desire for my railroad

Now if the snow would just melt a little I could get back to operation.

Stan
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale

[MJBTrainman]

Well yep, I have. I will then go with plan "B", which is to take a page from your book and do the magnets around the axle. I even printed out those really great pictures you had gave us. Nice work. I am one of those folks who have always stuck little components together to see what I can come up with. Sometimes they work great, sometimes they smoke.

Luck-o-draw.

"Trainman"

[Curmudgeon]

You have no idea how much "emotion".

If Stanley were not involved, there wouldn't be the "emotion", and probably not these issues, either.

Have you considered what you are going to do if the Chinese electronics in the optics fail?

Radio Shack?

[MJBTrainman]

My, there sure seems to be more then a fair share of emotion out there in trainland. Remember guys this is just a hobby. It's suppose to be fun "and freindly". Seems to me that everyone is free to take or leave the ideas presented on the various forums and use them as each person feels is best for them.

Ya'll be careful out there.

"Trainman"

[TonyWalsham]

Stanley.]

Firstly.
A week or so ago you sent me instructions on how to wire the Sierra sound to the K-27 pcb.
One part of those instructions went into some detail as to how the Sierra batterywas to be wired in.
I can usually understand a circuit diagram but not necessarily written instructions.
Using your recommended wiring is the Sierra battery connected to the Sierra and the Bachmann pcb as well, so that it powers the chuff etc at low speed?
If it is not connected to the Bachmann pcb how does the chuff work at low speed?
If it is connected to the Bachmann pcb and the Sierra, is it also powering other Bachmann electronics?
If it is isolated from any other Bachmann wiring to prevent overloading the Sierra charging circuit how is it wired?
A proper circuit diagram would assist us in understanding how you did it.

Secondly.
Will the modifications you are proposing to make the chuff work be an official Bachmann recommended fix?
I know the chuff can be utilised by the addition of extra components but don't you think that asking LS consumers to go out and purchase extra components and then install them in the loco is fraught with danger?  Especially as they have to get the part(s) in the correct place and the right way round.
If you don't hink such a procedure is not fraught with danger of component damage and possible warranty claims. 
Why not?

Thirdly.

It is a snip to install any R/C like JD Miller has done and power all the Bachmann stuff with the output of the on board controller.
However, the only way you can provide a constant traction battery voltage to the socket pcb and provide a constant voltage for the chuff etc is if you either:
1). Use a PnP controller.  Currently the only one I am aware of is the QSI unit that can run on battery R/C.
I guess the Crest Crest 75 Mhz on board controller could be used, but, according to you, Lewis Polk told you information regarding that equipment is now irrelevant.
2). Use the other brands of battery R/C such as Locolinc, RCS/EVO and Airwire. In which case you must cut tracks on the dummy pcb to isolate the motor from the rest of the wiring. 
More "stuff" to change for the consumer.
Then you are faced with the problem of having the Bachmann electrics reverse in accordance with the direction.
How do you propose to fix that?

Some answers please Stanley.

Enquiring minds would like to know. 

[MJBTrainman]

I thought I would update the forums on this chuff transistor circuit. I was informed of this transistor circuit last weekend at the Del Mar Train Show. Stan Ames sent me the transistor ID and information on how to install it.
The circuit is now up and running in my K-27. It is powered by an AirWire controller fed from two lithium-ion batteries, wired parallel, located in a trail behind battery car. The sound card is a Pheonix P5. Both came from Jonathan at Electric Model Works.
The chuff circuit is performing perfectly. I am getting the exact sounds from the sound card that I programmed it to emit. It is using the chuff circuit as it's que. Now this K-27 looks and sounds just like the real Mc Coy.
I do not know,as yet, how to post either pictures or attachments to these forums, but if anyone would like to know any information on this circuit, how it installs or how it works, just send me an e-mail and I will be happy to help. I will be gone till next week on a clampper outing but will be returning in time to watch the Chargers and New England play, yipe!
As stated above this circuit came from Stan Ames. If this did not work the magnets on the axle were plan "B".

That's it, everybody out there take care,
"Trainman"

[grandpopswalt]

Dave,

Thanks, I appreciate the reply. This is good stuff to know, although I'm a long way from getting a K-27.

Walt 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Walt-

No, not like others.

Stanley designed a new Optical unit for Kader (Bachmann's parent), and it seems to have issues, as reported on other forums.

Stanley will deny he designed it, yet the Bach-Man is telling folks at shows that Stanley DID design the on-board electronics.

The fix is easy, parts come with sound systems:

http://www.largescalecentral.com/LSCForums/viewtopic.php?id=8262

 The more involved the technology, the easier it is to go awry.

I have 3 of these units here, a 4th will be here Friday, and maybe a 5th.

ALL of them will be gutted and start over, by customer demand.

ALL OF THEM.

 

 

[grandpopswalt]

Perhaps if I ask my question in a different way I'll get some kind of response this time. The way the original post is worded, it sounds as though the K-27 comes with an installed "chuff sytem" much like those found on the Annie, etc. Is that true? If so, is that circuit avilable as suggested in the post? If not, what are we talking about here?

Thanks,

Walt 

[Curmudgeon]

There bis no way the avearge consumer will figure out how to place components (much less neatly solder them).

Asking them to get all the bits connected just so is an effort in futility.

EVERYTHING in your picture goes away, including the weights.

This concept is not good.

As you can see, several of us have this figured out.

Cut and throw, Stanley. Exactly what we've been telling you for 4-1/2 months.

You even had several weeks of lead time over anyone else to sort it, and if that is "sorting" it, forget it.

If this is any indication of the "simplicity" of dcc and your idea of "plug-and-play", well, you know what I told you on another forum.

I will have a tutorial for folks to fix these.

I now have units I can do that with, as the CONSUMERS have requested it.

One was more than specific.

Yank it all, everything, lay it out on a table and take a picture, then start over.

[stanames]

JD

Using either track power or battery RC there is not the necessary voltage to power the optical chuff trigger at low starting voltage.

I have worked with several doing RC installations and have done a few myself for the K27.

In each case the  battery is connected to the locomotive +- to power the electronics in the locomotive including the lights the smoke unit and the optos.  This also provides full smoke and lighting effects when the locomotive is stopped.

Qwire among others makes this connection for you, with others you simply make this simple connection to the battery.

While you can easily add a mechanical chuff to any locomotive, you can also use the optical chuff in the K with excellent results. 

 Myself I prefer the sound effects of a good optical rather then a mecnanical trigger, especially at the higher speeds.

If you have a sound system that requires a ground trigger, simply invert the chuff trigger using a simple NPN transistor.  When needed it is a very simple solution.

 As we move forward expect more products to use the native electronics for DC sound, DCC, or RC. 

Stan
http://www.tttrains.com/largescale

 

 

[JD Miller]

Stan,

You miss the point.

Using either track power or battery RC there is not the necessary voltage to power the optical chuff trigger at low starting voltage.

As Dave points out the locomotive starts to move at around 1.2 to 1.5 volts. That voltage is way below the starting voltage for the optical trigger.  So, as you suggest it would be necessary to provide battery power to the optical trigger in order to have it provide input to a sound card. 

Or, the user can go through a nut roll of adding electronics to raise the motor starting voltage. Doing this plus adding a transistor to the chuff trigger circuit seems like a lot of extra work just to trigger the more popular sound systems such as Phoenix or Sierra.

Rather than go through all that nut roll, I did as Dave outlined and use a reed switch and magnets.  Sure a lot easier to accomplish plus don't have to rely on a optical trigger that is iffy at best.

Wait till folks start to poke around inside their Ks to accomplish providing battery power to the optical trigger, or better yet attempt to add the necessary electrical components to raise motor starting voltage.  Bachmann will be covered up with "smoked" K-27s returned for repair.

Quickest, easiest, workable solution is to add magnets and a reed switch to trigger the chuff of a sound system.  Took about maybe half an hour or so to install a Phoenix sound in my K-27. System works just fine. It is powered by output from my TE, that at the same time powers the locomotive.

This may be a great system for DCC but for the vast majority of us, the optical trigger for sound is a no-go.

JD

[stanames]

Dave

Very strange post.  I have mine working with most sound boards in the market.  Best and most realible chuff effects of any locomotive I have.

Some sound boards are plug and play while others will require the user to add an NPN transistor (almost any will work just fine) which means three connections rather then 2 connections have to be made.  Its very easy to do and sure a lot easier then adding additional wires and magnets.

 Note we have no standard at present for how the chuff should work so one can not expect all sound systems to work the same in this regard and I yet to find one that has not worked either as delovered or with the transistor.

DCC and RC users all operate with batteries or track voltage greater then 5 volts so the voltage is always there to operate the optipical chuff.

For DC sound you either raise the motor starting voltage (AKA LGB or QSI approach) or you install a rechargable battery that powers the optos at slow speed.  Note that DC sound systems also do not operate at low voltage so a battery for DC usage or higher motor start voltage is the norm.

Stan Ames

http://www.tttrains.com/largescale

 

[Curmudgeon]

The problem is, even if you do get the circuit to work, it won't.

Takes 4 or 5 volts to "energize" the chuff optics, and I can tell you at 1.2V, the loco is moving.

Pointless endeavor.

I have mine fixed and running flawlessly, just lock #4 axle as shown elsewhere and it's a snap.

[grandpopswalt]

Mike,

Would you care to share that circuit? Is it by chance the same circuit used in the Annie or Big Hauler units? Please e-mail me with your answer.

 

Thanks,

Walt 

 

[Anonymous]

Make sure you put it in the right way round as it can damage board.

Which is that way?

Toad

[two tone]

Hi, If you tell radio shack the colour code on the transister IE coluor bands they shouls be able to supply the one you want.  Make sure you put it in the right way round as it can damage board.

[MJBTrainman]

Can anyone out there tell me what transistor number is to be used in the chuff circuit on the Bachmann K-27's? I have a diagram of the circuit that I picked up at the Del Mar Train Show today here in San Diego but I forgot to get the transistor number so I can run over to radio shack to pick one up. Thanks, Mike Ballou Carmel Valley RR