What is the most used approach to track planning with Large Scale

[SNOWSHOE]

 

 

I have thought about that but the area is too far from the house.  Too run the electric down that far would be too much.  Plus the area is very wooded and rocky.  Would be a project maintaining it.

[Anonymous]

Im just getting ready to start my first Garden RR.  I was never good at measuring things so I just took some paper and started drawing until I came up with a plan that works.  I have 9 acres of hilly property.  Part if open field, wooded, swamps and a stream that runs through.  I would love to do something with incorperating the stream but the stream sits in the back end of my 9 acres.  Too far.   

Just a thought about the stream, nice size bridge, while like some layouts let people walk around and see the different wounders that are there. Hills can be cut through like real RRs. You can use this stream to your advantage. Remember to note how high the water gets and add a few.

My 3 cents....

Toad

[SNOWSHOE]

Im just getting ready to start my first Garden RR.  I was never good at measuring things so I just took some paper and started drawing until I came up with a plan that works.  I have 9 acres of hilly property.  Part if open field, wooded, swamps and a stream that runs through.  I would love to do something with incorperating the stream but the stream sits in the back end of my 9 acres.  Too far.  I decided to build it in the front yard.  It is faily flat and I have a deck I can sit on a watch the trains.  Once the snow melts Im going to measure out the width and length of the RR and start removing the grass and then work the land to get it how I want it.  Then I will lay the track down and then take it from there.   

[BJ of Maltby]

I use a computer program called RR Tack.  It doesn't cost a whole lot, and it saves a lot of time when your in the planning stage looking at a blank page.  What ever the size you your empire space, the program is totally adjustible.  I have an older version of the program, but the new three D looks very cool.

[Neiler]

George:

I, like you, came up from the world of small(er) scales and gauges.  Narrow gauge has always had it's appeal and seemed ideal for the garden.  We get over 200" of rain a year so mine needed to be built where drainage was key so the physical site sort of presented itself with a little walk about the yard.  

As an architect, I feel very comfortable with a pencil so after marking off the are with a tape I transfered the "site" to paper.  Nothing was fixed except on really large tree and fences to keep horses away from the yard.

My interests are varied and I began thinking that I'd look at 2' railroads for starters and started drawing plans with wide (10'+) radius curves, not being too concerned about the existing topography as I wanted to put the railroad IN the yard not ON the yard.

I also wanted to "operate" my trains and have a place where single track with sidings will create meets and give me something to do.  We have a few folks around that like to "watch them run" just like everywhere else, but it's my railroad not theirs.

The railroad also had to have a purpose.  It began simply. Trains would run from a seaside town to the wharves where ore and comodoties would be trans-shiped.  All theory, of course.  The climb to the pier would need about 2% - 21/2% grade making short trains manditory or doubling the hill - so sidings would be required to be used.  Long trains in this scale really eat up space!

Somewhere I got the 3' bug and really love the Accucraft stuff, 1:20.3 Bachmann engines for being cheap and reliable so the large curves really look good.  I figured that I could run the 1:13 stuff for kicks now and again.  Timber bridges scaled for the larger scale seem just right 5/8" square members really looked the part.

With all the rain my roadbed is concrete on tamped cinder landscape beds.  This seems to drain well and keep everything in place.  Despite the permanancy of the roadbed, I have found adding on isn't quite as daunting as I thought.  My cedar and redwood bridges fair o.k. - and I've since started experimenting with steel structures. We'll see.

Having a purpose to the line has always got me looking, reading, and thinking how to create more realistic and interesting scenes.  The idea of LDE never really hit home util I saw the port in "Steel Rails and Silver Dreams".  The end of the line is now undergoing a change with a Garden Textures model as the focal point.

I did use hoses, pvc, and bent stick to visualize my plan and made changes as I went.  The only thing that I wished that had been better considered was the railroad height.  The planting beds could have been raised another foot and it wouldn't look to much like a "table top" as others put it.  I love what was published on the Snow Creek Railroad and have tried to create concrete cliff faces where the railroad is near the lawn and needed to be high.  Other places "link" the landscaping with trestles - some 36" tall.  

We're under water here now but I'll try to get some photo's online if you are interested in this direction.

 

Neil 

[Ron Hill]

The first thing you need to do is look at the area where your layout is going to be develop. That will dictate what the track plan will look like. If your yard is flat like where I live in the MS. delta, then you will be able to build a layout a lot easier than if the area is of different height from one area to another. Drainage for water is another big design that you must take into consideration. Where the bridges will be located for this purpose will give you an idea of what the track plan will look like. Hopes this helps.

[OxnardScott]

I built my first layout among existing plants, such as nandina and full-sized trees, in my back yard.  My style was to stake out (with stakes) a route for my layout.  I used actual pieces of track to help me place the stakes and help me figure out how my track should wend its way among the plants.  It worked out o.k.

 

Now I am about to redo my back yard, including a new layout.  This time I am trying the layout design program RR-Track™ v4.02.  I measured the dimensions of my back yard and then created a layout.  I will now see how well I can duplicate it with the real layout.  The nice thing about the software approach is I could try a lot of iterations, change my mind, etc., before I actually started laying out track.  I think using the software approach will be a better one for me.

[Feather]

I use mostly the concept of, "First I want to go this-away, and then I want to go that-away, based on the lay of the land. I have essentially unlimited land to do this, so that is not a consideration. However, cost is a consideration so I have to reign in my "Druthers," when I write down my "Givens and Druthers." I also use the LDE. For instance, when I was looking at a drawing of the folded wye at that included Greenbriar, Elk and Cheat Junctions on the Tygart Subdivision of the Western Maryland. That fit perfectly my need to get trains out of an indoor storage yard and out to the layout. The best way to build a layout is to get some track down on the ground and start running trains. That forces you to look and the land and figure out just which LDE you want to use. SteveF

[OeBB]

Bill, how hard was the Mainline road bed to install?  It seems like more work then what i did, which was to use crusher fines for a subroad bed.  However, it sounds like this may be good for application with a lot of gradient. 

Thank you.

[Camaro1967]

Please Sandy provide some pictures. Sounds like this should be an article in GR, Kevin. How about it?

[kstrong]

SandyR, PICTURES!!!!

What you can't see because of SandyR's lack of photos is perhaps one of the coolest little garden railways I've ever seen. Hers is the antithesis of the "bigger is better" school of thought--mostly 2' radius curves and garden landscaping that just gives the railroad the perfect look. Add a Porter and some hand-built shorty cars to complete the picture. Anything larger would look completely out of place, but with the proper train you can sit and watch it for hours and not get bored (voice of experience).

Later,

K

(BTW, SandyR, you can e-mail me the photos and I'll store them for you.)

[SandyR]

In 1983, I got an LGB catalog. From the page that had information on track radii and length, I figured out full size templates. These I cut from cardboard cartons. Then I took them outside and laid them out on the ground. I drew a map of what track went where as I did it, since I didn't have enough cardboard for templates to do the whole railroad at once. A year later, I got an LGB starter set, and gradually got more track. And eventually built the garden railroad that I had once laid out. In the interim, I built a berm garden with the right of way for the railroad, and once I had all the track, it was plug and play. And my little railroad is still running today.

SandyR

 

[kstrong]

The LDE concept might have been practical with such a large parcel of land.

That concept works well on any size parcel. My yard's only 30' x 65'. As I stated earlier, I didn't know it had a fancy name when I was using that method to plan my railroad, but it's definitely scalable to fit any given space. You just have to be more selective in what you include as your space diminishes. You can get a surprising amount of operation in just three towns. It takes me the better part of an hour to move the freight.

Later,

K

[van buren s l]

.....planning?

Bob

[overall]

Thanks to everyone for the replies and good information. I used to have 40 acres of land in Alabama adjacent to the Southern Railway's Alabama division mainline that I let get away. Of all the mistakes I made in my youth, that was the most imbacillic,idiotic and moronic. It was right up there with Esau selling his birthright for a bowl of stew in the Old Testament. I have often thought of what I might have done with that property. Building a really large garden railroad was only one possiblity. The LDE concept might have been practical with such a large parcel of land. The staging yards would be housed in outbuildings designed for that purpose. I guess the saddest words spoken or penned are those of what might have been.

Thanks again,

George

[EMPIRE II LINE]

Morning George,

9:00 am here where I'm, in Kissimmee, FL. Interesting Question here that you ask, and with of course many diverse answers and approaches.

So I thought I might share with you the general approach that I took to the design of my most recent "G" scale endeavor. This is the 4th "G" scale layout I've personally built.

I too model the "O" scale, 3-rail trains and my plan is to incorporate a loop of the "O" scale along with my "G" scale layout outside, by way of making the "O" scale line look similar to the L-trains of Chicago, or is that EL, through my town area.

I model the Great Northern RR, Seattle to Chicago, scaled down of course, through Essex, MT. My initial plan was to design this line with the transition era from steam to diesels in mind, About 1948 thur say 1960, during the hayday of Luxury Streamliner Passenger service in the US.

Mind you my space is limited, I live in a Mobile Home Community, yet I wanted to be able to run long frieghts and passenger cars on the line, trains about 50 to 60 feet long or so. I also did not want to have to deal with removing trains from the track all the time. And I have a bad back.

So I designed a large ladder storage yard shed, 11ft by 35ft, and an elevated track system, with no curves less than 10ft diameter, 11.5ft minimum on the main line. 

So in a few words, take the time to think about what it is that you want to accomplish.....and proceed as your wallet/Wife dictates also, and above all have fun.

Byron  

[Lynn Episcopi]

The SENSIBLE way is to first look at the size of the plot.  If you are going to be restricted to LGB R1 curves do not expect to run Big Boys  (or anything else much) and for it to look convincing.  In this situation small industrial locos and rolling stock are your best bet. 

Plan for the largest curves and switches (points) you can manage.  If you do not you may find that when a manufacturer finally produces your heart's desire it will not take the curves.

Your choice of prototype will to some extent dictate the room you will need.  

Decide if you want to just run trains or operate a railroad, this will dictate to some extent what you will need.

Check your soil conditions.  This will have a bearing on what kind of substructure you can use to  lay your track on.  Poor drainage usually indicates some form of raised structure. Ground level needs good drainage.

Be aware of costs - better to design something you can afford to do properly than suffer frustration due to bad execution or the fact that you will not see any tangible results for a very long time.

<> Read all you can  before starting, as Garden Railroading is a very different kettle of fish to indoor layouts - for a start you up against nature in a way not encountered indoors.  Also be aware that not all articles will be suitable.  Without wishing to teach granny, techniques used in dry areas of the US may not be appropriate for the wetter cooler UK , and some ideas in the UK may not be suitable for areas of high heat or frozen ground (severe winters).

I think it inadvisable to scale up HO plans WITHOUT any consideration  for the increase on scale and physical size.  By all means adapt them but I would be wary of simply scaling them up.

Best

Lynn in UK 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spookytown rr]

No matter how much you can plan in Autocadd or on paper once you get out in the garden and you strart to build things will change.  Might be a tree root there, boulder here, heavy clay soil everwhere else, track is still "in the mail" and you wanna run a damn drain already!

A simple hand draw sketch with flexibility to change will probably be less of a headache for most people.  It's not like the prototype railroads ever stopped laying new track or reconfigured lines here and there, it's an ever changing process to begin with.  This is how I started out, simple idea of a basic mainline, had enough track left over for a small inner loop. All was good!

It works, I can run the trains, and of course plan for more expansions, heck even within the last month that original "big" loop is now a smaller loop, and the newest plan calls for another loop that would double the entire track length that I already have down.

If you think about the prototype they grow the same way - organically - based on new needs and destinations of the railroad.  Why not build it the same way?  You wouldn't believe how much of a difference new track next to used track looks in the garden, and it will take several years for it to weather the same, but in the meantime visitors can actually "read" the story of expansion on your railroad. 

Buildings can be "read" the same way.  Most garden railroads that I have seen have one weakness that's very preventable.  When I drive from town to town, I study the architecture, and it's quite apparent that building materials and style vary greatly from town to town.  Most people that "plan" their garden buildings are using the same materials and look for every town...which might still look great but not at all realistic. 

"Growing the garden layout" as a means of designing and building I believe is a way to go.. Look at the protype rails, do you really think they used a master plan and stuck to it, HELL NO. They looked at the land and figured out where the track goes! Take your track outside and start building, and don't waste your time planning everything on paper.

Just my opion of course!

MAD

 

[Beach Bill]

" I would copy this layout, compressing distances as needed, but keep switches and track arranged the way it is. I would feed trains in from both sides using staging yards. "

 Unless you have huge amounts of space, staging yards will be hard to place on an outdoor railroad.  Also, I wouldn't want to leave the locomotives and rolling stock outdoors when not in use, so those staging yards will need to be located indoors OR one has to move a lot of equipment to storage.   Also, most garden railroads have a loop feature rather than true point-to-point.  This allows one to enjoy watching the trains run while trimming the plants or doing other landscaping.

I only had a "postage stamp" back yard to work with, but it had been selected because it was large enough to support a basic dogbone.  I measured my space, selected the largest radius that would fit in the space, sketched out a plan to scale, and then purchased the preformed roadbed to match the plan from Mainline Enterprises (an extruded PVC product that can readily be adapted to grade changes).  Things have only been in operation out there for about 8 months so far.  Regular minor tending of the area is needed, and a large outdoor layout could become very time consuming just to keep it nice (pine needles out of the way; weeds pulled; grass trimmed; ballast and slopes maintained after rains; etc.).  Weeds and things grow fast down here in South Carolina.

Good luck.   Enjoy.    Bill

 

[kstrong]

The LDE or Layout Design Element approach is to take a stretch of real railroad somewhere and shrink it down and compress it to fit on the layout. The schematic of the track layout itself ( i.e the relationship between the switches and track ) is keep intact however. The idea is to let the real railroad do all the track planning work while we as modelers simply plagurize it.

That's pretty much exactly how I arrived at my track plan (see above). Didn't know it had a fancy name, it just seemed logical if one was to model the operations of a real railroad to use their track arrangements. I took the ICC valuation maps for the EBT's Shade Gap Branch and designed each location based on that (with obvious concessions for space). It really gets one thinking about how a railroad does what it does with--really--minimal track. Rarely does a railroad lay track just for fun. Each foot of track has a distinct purpose.

I suspect, however, that you'll find the vast majority of large scale railroaders aren't so interested in prototype operations to where many will have tried that. But it does work, and work well. Narrow gauge railroads--particularly the smaller eastern ones--are great fodder for simple track plans and operation schemes. I'm reading a book right now on the Lancaster, Oxford, and Southern RR (otherwise known as the Peach Bottom RR), which was a very simple railroad that ran very simple trains. No fancy yards, minimal equipment, and just spurs and passing sidings at the various towns.

If you're looking for an ultra-simple track plan, try the Monson RR up in Maine. Not quite a straight line, but you sure wouldn't need many switches.

Later,

K

[Rex in Pinetop]

My planning started with a need to landscape the front yard of a corner lot for the summer home we just finished.  The streets are several feet higher than the house so some teracing was required along with drainage requirements.  All of that meant I had to move tons of earth and bring in more tons of rock no matter what I did.  My previous layout was a backyard one that didn't get many visitors and almost no kids which was a shame so I had this brilliant idea that I would landscape the front yard with a GR that the neighborhood kids could enjoy.  In our community everything visible from the street has to be approved by the home owners association so I roughed a sketch together with some explanation about what a GR was and got the required approvals including an exception to the six month completion requirement.  I already had a saw mill and my older son has a gold panning hobby so those two got added to the plan.  The terrain required a 4' rise to be able to use all the area available so a helix became part of the plan to get the town connected to the gold mine and logging operation.  Everything just grew from those basic ideas.  Working in the front yard attracts a lot of visitors so I get to talk to lots of people.  This last summer I put in enough track so the kids could run a train.  It's been a blast just watching them have so much fun and keeps me inspired to keep working on buildings and such even while we're down in the desert for the winter.

Rex

[kimbrit]

Mine grew slowly as I bought track. My garden is flat and floods, so over time I have lifted the level of the whole garden by nearly one foot and put a drain in. I am a firm believer in a railroad in the garden, not the other way round and I don't let it get 'in the way', I can work in the garden with a train going round and not worry about standing on it! After lots ot thought I knew what I wanted and I worked off the picture in my mind. Works for me. Each to their own really.

Cheers,

Kim

[Ray Dunakin]

I'm not much good at doing a lot of detailed advance planning. I try to think through what I want as carefully as I can and then work out the details as I go. My layout is a bit unusual in that it's built into a steep slope. I couldn't lay out all the track in advance because tons of dirt had to be moved first. I'd never actually seen a large scale layout except for some small temporary exhibits at the county fair. So I had a fairly vague idea of how much space would be needed for access, etc.

So I started with a rough approximation of what I wanted to produce and just started building. The most complicated areas were the ends, where the track has to make horseshoe curves and one level goes over another. I started at the east end, and built a little at a time. Each section involved much time spent laying down pieces of sectional track and trying out different arrangements, while trying to visualize how much track would be covered by mountains, how the upper level would cross the lower level, how to access the tunnels, where to fit footpaths, etc.

There was a time when I was trying to figure out how to fit everything together at the west end, where I was beginning to despair and wondering if I'd bitten off more than I could chew and generally botched the whole deal. This end of the layout is the most complex, with a lot that had to fit into a limited space, and it all had to come together just right in order to connect the upper level, mid level and lower level tracks. But I kept fiddling with it until I got an arrangement that worked, and now I'm very happy with it. In fact it's my favorite part of the layout.

Anyway, that's how I did it. My method wouldn't work for everyone, in fact it probably wouldn't work for most people. You just have to figure out what works best for you.

[Anonymous]

I ripped my track back up....because it was my RR and found drop track in the grass a better way for me to get my mow right where I want it.

I cleaned all my track last summer and the brass is shiny new + I have NOB (new old brass) left over from before the track went up and heck I did not know till 6 months before but spent my limit on track!

Looking back drop track is better for me

Toad (the one who ripped up track in da Swamp)

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Brings us back to the old "It's your railroad, do what you want!"  because if you look hard enough you can find a prototype for almost anything.

I did something between the throw some track down and build where it lands, and paper planning everything.   It worked well for what was intended at the time, but I think I would do it differently another time.   It does not lend itself well to expansion or alteration; and I'm not about to move block walls and 30 truckloads of dirt!

I would surely stay with the raised railroad concept.  It is especially easier on the old knees and back, keeps most critters out, and is enjoyable to look at; but then it is a railroad in the yard and not so much of a garden thing!

Given the cost of what I have, I could almost have built a 30' X 50 or 60' pole barn and had it indoors and been able to play with it year round and with less problems.   When you railroad outdoors you have all the problems the real railroads have, from ground settling to erosion to snow removal!

[altterrain]

Thanks for the explanation. Interesting concept but I don't think I have seen anyone take that approach in large scale.

 -Brian

[cabbage]

I did look at realism for my first layout -but the problem is one of scale.... Even clipping things down to bare essentials left me with a single platform island station that was 3 metres long and the layout was only 11 metres square. Now that I have a somewhat larger back garden -I can still only expand my station to two island platforms and 3 metres long. This gives me a loco, two carriages and a guards van length for my platforms. At the scales that I use Gauge 0 / 16mm (1:19.1) and Gauge 3 / 13.5mm (1:22.6) this means that at most -I can have a scale 1.5 kilometres of track around my garden. Corners are equivalent to; 2.4 chains, and 2.75 chains -repectively. Normal UK tight curves are about 8 to 16 chains and in the case of any Great Central Railway track -600 chains!!!

The LDE approach cannot be translated to the garden. The environments are very different to that found indoors added to this you have the sheer size of the thing. If I were to model the Derby "Friargate" Railway Station (now disused) in its early days of 1860 then it would be well over 20 metres long at the 13,5mm scale -and that was a small local station. I doubt anything resembling Birmingham Snow Hill or Nottingham Victoria could be modelled at scales bigger than Z...

[overall]

Thanks to all who responded. The LDE or Layout Design Element approach is to take a stretch of real railroad somewhere and shrink it down and compress it to fit on the layout. The schematic of the track layout itself ( i.e the relationship between the switches and track ) is keep intact however. The idea is to let the real railroad do all the track planning work while we as modelers simply plagurize it. For example, CSX runs through my home town of Murfreesboro TN. There is a passing siding, some smaller on line customers and a couple of good size plants served by rail. I would copy this layout, compressing distances as needed, but keep switches and track arranged the way it is. I would feed trains in from both sides using staging yards.

Have any of you tried this approach in Large Scale? If you did, did you like it?

Thanks in advance,

George 

 

[Great Western]

When I built my railroad I maintained the existing garden layout, leaving the trees, bushes and plants where they were.  Only in one area was new ground used, where sweet pea trellises and a couple of unwanted large hydrangeas were removed.  The rest was built, as per the 1:1 chaps folllowing the contours and spaces where nothing was growing.  The  head gardner preferred this was as she said it would look like a garden railway - she had seen one or two others which, to her, were more like railways in a garden.  Agregate blocks and stout timbers were used for the base and were set into a narrow trench. The ballast is a little coarse.  This seems to survive the heavy rains better than the more fine  gravels.  Also where seeds decide to appear they are very easily removed without any real disturbance to the ROW.   Apart from a lessening of a grade vitually no maintenance has been needed since the line was built 18 months ago.  Just a small amount of ballast, here and there,  where my dogs have disturbed the ROW after chasing birds or cats.  The track is, in the main, loose laid. It is only fixed lightly where the ROW crosses three bridges:  I prefer that to a wreck