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NEW ENGINES YOU WANT TO SEE MADE IN G SCALE...

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Posted by Capt Bob Johnson on Sunday, August 26, 2007 8:13 PM
I'm loving these well reasoned and excellently written discussions!   Pure Art!
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Posted by hoofe116 on Sunday, August 26, 2007 11:05 AM

Bob:

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, because I think your idea is great. But it won't work. Here's a few reasons:

Let's pick a brand name out of the air, one aimed for the low-end market. (Think, kids, and engines being used as handlaunched missiles....) So, they'd have to be rugged. And low end stuff barely approximates a proto one. Let's name this fictional brand um ... 'Echo'.

Now, Honorable Chinese Train and Cannon fdy gets an order for X million Echo Hard Chargers. Those crafty honorable Chinese engineers sit down and figure out the minumum mechanical requirements. They do a remarkably great job for what they have to design down to. The production lines roll. Honored Chinese Plant owner is Happy Camper, smiles down on his engineers.

Along about s/n 500,000 in the production run,Mr. Kung Foo, of the Honorable Chinese Gear and Cannnon Factory, experiences a production overrun/cancellation, whatever, and realizes he has an Honorable warehouse full of gearsets that are now worthless to him. He sends his Highest Honored engineer to the Honored Chinese Echo maker, saying, "Oh, Sir, though my poor product is unworthy of thy unsurpassable Hard Charger Train, we have a great number of them which we would be grateful if you would accept, and only 2 for a penny. This will save you fully 50.1% on manufacturing costs after the mere rearrangement of four holes, or perchance five."

Honored Echo manufacturer runs the numbers, and indeed, the man is correct! 2% of .5 mil is nice, especially since he can coerce his engineering staff to work freetime on redesign, exactly as the Running Dog Americans do. (After all, he attended Harvard Business School, too).

Profits go up. Now let us pick at random another, but better-quality train. Let's call it uh... Bachmann. Built better, or advertised to be. Certainly looks better. They are unfortunate in that their engineering team got the flu, perhaps, and a certain motor won't turn when set on the track. So the engineers, stuck with production cost figures, determine a gear change is in order, say from 1:1 to oh, 1:32. Better, but still weak. They add some gears of varying diameter, collected from lowest-bid sources, and lo, out rolls a pretty successful 10 wheeler. It drags cars around, makes noise and most importantly, looks a good deal like a 'real' engine. They are happy, except that the Echo Hard Charger is outselling them many times over.

They deign to ignore such as would buy an Echo Hard Charger as philistines.

Someone comes along and says, "Hey, let's standardize power bricks, so they're all easily interchangable!" Then you could have a great motor in a cheap engine and add detail parts and end up with a pretty nice result.

The upper end manufactures want nothing of the kind. They sell on the 'exclusivity principle'. They care for the growth of the Garden RR hobby only insofar as they themselves can cash in on it. It's called competition.

In short, groups with dissimilar motives cannot work together for the good of all, except in times of emergency. Enlightened self interest does not make cash registers ring in stock market time-cycles.

Les

 

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Posted by Capt Bob Johnson on Sunday, August 26, 2007 7:24 AM

Wow, a voice of reason in the pettifog of greed!

Bob, the most needed standard you didn't mention was couplers; but I really like your idea for standardized, interchangeable parts!

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Posted by bobgrosh on Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:04 PM

Let's see, some of the biggest sellers and / or the biggest profit makers, were:

The big Hauler

The Stainz

The Mighty Mo

The Egg-liner.

Were you the guy who was begging for an Egg-liner?

Of course all those people who bought them wanted their next loco to be a Mikado, a GG1, a Big Boy or a Genesis AMD103, etc.

Everyone said, "I'd Love to see...",  "I'd buy a..."  ,  "I want a...",  "Everyone will want a...",  "I'd buy two..."

Companies spent millions on development and tooling.

One percent of the hobby had curves big enough, half of those thought they looked silly on smaller curves. The other half couldn't afford them.

LGB made three out of four of those. Where is LGB now?

If I owned one of those companies, I'd FIRE any employee that so much as LOOKED at a forum pole.

 

 

So, the question was, "NEW ENGINES YOU WANT TO SEE MADE IN G SCALE... "

That would depend on what Target, Wal-Mart, Toys-R-Us would want for starter sets. It would also depend on what movie or TV show featured trains.

I don't care as long as MILLIONS OF THEM CAN BE SOLD.

Of course, to sell to the modern buyer, that means the engine would probably be a diesel.

Since the companies know the consuming public is fickle, and another TV show or movie next year will demand another new loco, I'd like to see a modular powered axle. Just like the traction motor under most diesels.

Each manufacture would make the traction motor according to the price point they are designing to, IE:

  • Bachmann could put a 50 cent motor and a 3 cent plastic gear in their traction motor and use just one traction lotor per loco. The other axles would be dummies.
  • USAT could put a 5 amp motor on each axle and a split shaft (that splits) on all their axles.
  • LGB Marklin could put two brush-less DC motors (which require electronics anyway, so would include DC or DCC compatible electronics) Of course theirs would allow each wheel to turn separately on curves and draw 1/10th of an amp per axle.
  • New-Bright could make theirs just like Bachmann, but use a 40 cent motor, a 2 cent plastic gear and no grease.

Imagine, All the diesels have powered traction motors right on the axle. No matter what truck design you need next year, the only mechanical compatibility point is the end of the axle. As long as the hole in the side-frame fits, you use the same power axles. Need a three axle truck next year, add another traction motor. Need to lower you price point to move up your volume, substitute a dummy axle.

What boom for us hobbyist! Do you like Bachman's detail but can't get it up your grades? Just pop a couple traction motors out and snap in a couple USAT traction motors. Want them to run smoother, run on DCC, use less power.  Pop and Snap this or Pop and Snap that.

 Worst case, you have to enlarge the journal box or add a bushing.

Finally, the next loco I want to see is has a standard connector plug going to the loco. The shape of the plug and a standard polarity for the wire will take the Crackle out of the "Pop and Snap" traction motor system. Here is where a SMART manufacturer would submit a proposal to the NMRA, push to have it adopted and accept a compromise if needed. Some manufactures would realize that they are lousy at supplying repair parts, and for them it is a money losing expense, their customers could then buy their favorite model from them and rely on one of their competitors for replacement traction motors.

Smart manufacturers would realize that standards help grow the hobby and therefor increase the number of potential customers. They might as well include axle end diameters and lengths in the stadard too.

So, the next loco I want to see is the one in the pallet full of sets on action ally at Wal-Mart. One that I can paint and letter for my garden railroad and know that should I blow a gear I can always find another Traction Motor (TMo)  or it. Heck. I might upgrade it to an LGB TMo or a USAT TMo or even one of those aftermarket TMo's. You know, the TMo from ActionTMo. I think I'd get the one with the super detailed carbon fiber housing, Nickle silver treads, brush-less 32 pole servo motor and all sealed ball bearing with both the 40:1 and the 60:1 gear sets and Super Flex Spaghetti cables on the NMRA plug.

Anyone have a couple 3 axle Alco RS5 side frames to fit NMRA TMo's for my latest bash?

That sure sounds better than:

Anyone have a 32 tooth gear for the **** loco produced between 2001 and spring 2003? The green one, not the white one.

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Posted by Southwest Chief on Saturday, August 25, 2007 7:44 PM
A plastic D&RGW K-27 in 1:22.5 scale

Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, CO
Click Here for my model train photo website

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Posted by hoofe116 on Saturday, August 25, 2007 4:15 PM
 vsmith wrote:
 hoofe116 wrote:

I want to see some of the 1840-1850 types. American, of course. And not just line engines. Switchers/shunters, passenger cars, freights--the more oddball-looking the better. Kits would be great. In plastic, not brass.

The English built some unbelievably ugly things, and huge, too. Love 'em. But, how to justify 'em on my RR? Lend-Lease, perhaps?Wink [;)]

By the way, where is that website where people build really improbable-looking RR engines, cars, etc? I thought it was Loco Locomotive, but either he changed his site or my mind's flaky. (He probably didn't change his site).

Les

I would suggest looking at Brit engines of the mid-to-late 19th century, some of the most beautiful mechanical creations ever...

Case in point: Dean Single 4-2-2 mid 19th C. wow!

However some of the post WW2 nasties were pretty unforgivable

Whatiizzit, a steam toaster?

Actually its an Austerity 0-6-0, but calling a pig a rose still a pig

V:

Hey, sometimes seriously ugly can be interesting, intrinsically. Wink [;)]

And, lest I inadvertently offended someone, the Brit locos were kinda neat, in an ungainly sorta way!

Les 

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Posted by GearDrivenSteam on Friday, August 24, 2007 4:35 PM
Well, since you went there, I prefer my wife to either of those two.
It is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me.
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Posted by vsmith on Friday, August 24, 2007 3:56 PM

This:

not beautiful???

Sacrelidge!!

Thats like saying you'd prefer Rosie O'donnel over Scarlett JohansonWink [;)]Big Smile [:D]

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by EMPIRE II LINE on Friday, August 24, 2007 12:58 PM
[ user="GearDrivenSteam"]

"some of the most beautiful mechanical creations ever..."

I don't know Vic......beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yuck.

Yeah Robert, ain't that the truth, I'd really like to see Charlie do more completion of the consist on the 'Empire Builder' cars, USA. 

Like a duplex sleeper, or two, the full length dome, the buffet car.....

Byron 

He Wore Arrow Shirts Too
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Posted by vsmith on Friday, August 24, 2007 12:15 PM
Guess it depends if you like Pickups vs Ferraris Wink [;)]

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by GearDrivenSteam on Friday, August 24, 2007 11:11 AM

"some of the most beautiful mechanical creations ever..."

I don't know Vic......beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Yuck.

It is enough that Jesus died and that he died for me.
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Posted by vsmith on Friday, August 24, 2007 9:59 AM
 John Busby wrote:

Hi guys

Here is my list

Highland Railway castle class loco and coaches HR goods guard's van.

Anything Australian 3'6" gauge WAGR bogie G class steamer would be a nice start

The real GHAN thats the 3'6" gauge one to the uninitiated.

Hearse coach any one.

More industrial small stuff not every one has 20' diameter curves.

regards John

Hey John those are some good choices, I remember seeing on TV what the Ghan was before it became a high speed luxury train.
.
Before, it was a slow train, I mean sloooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow.
.
They layed the sleepers direct on the sand when they built it so by the 80's the roadbed was so old, it was limited to like 15 mph and in some places you could get out and pace along side it. The joke was a newlywed couple boarded the Ghan and by the time it reached Alice Springs their kids were ready for college.
.
Here here to more Indy stuff!
.
One I want badly are some of the 20" gauge 0-4-4 Porters used on the Arizona Copper Co RR (Coronado RR) they would make nice additions

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by John Busby on Friday, August 24, 2007 5:36 AM

Hi guys

Here is my list

Highland Railway castle class loco and coaches HR goods guard's van.

Anything Australian 3'6" gauge WAGR bogie G class steamer would be a nice start

The real GHAN thats the 3'6" gauge one to the uninitiated.

Hearse coach any one.

More industrial small stuff not every one has 20' diameter curves.

regards John

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:33 AM
 altterrain wrote:
<<quote user="ToadFrog&WhiteLightn"]

MOW units.

da Frog

[/quote>>

sumthin' wrong with the USA trains work cars?

 

http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainswork.html

 

-Brian 

Yes, there older, where is the new ones seen in 80s and now in 2000s?

da Frog

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Posted by altterrain on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:31 AM
 Rastun wrote:

I'd really like to see some 1880-1900 Standard gauge American steam. I really think it could be a vast market that's sitting there with no one even looking at it.

Jack 

I agree with Jack, more early standard gauge steamers. I'm looking forward to the LGBofA USRA 0-6-0 and the Aristo std. guage 2-8-0 when they come out.

-Brian 

President of
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Posted by altterrain on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:26 AM
<<quote user="ToadFrog&WhiteLightn"]

MOW units.

da Frog

[/quote>>

sumthin' wrong with the USA trains work cars?

 

http://www.usatrains.com/usatrainswork.html

 

-Brian 

President of
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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:23 AM
 vsmith wrote:

Biggest trouble is finding correct parts, still havent found the right drivers for my Single.

Vic, that is not a lie.....trucks (highway trucks) normaly seen around yards and different machines like a ballast tamper, but now you have the great super grinders that look like a speed train.

Oh hey!!!! quick question, any one know of some one or supplier of the new Santa Fe logo with the mark under it? Need it in SF Blue....

(looks at all the tad poles in swamp and wounders if Vic will make a deal with him?!Evil [}:)])

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Posted by Rastun on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:12 AM

I'd really like to see some 1880-1900 Standard gauge American steam. I really think it could be a vast market that's sitting there with no one even looking at it.

Jack 

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Posted by vsmith on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:12 AM

Give it a try, you might like it. Plus you get what YOU want, not what some marketing suit in an office THINKS you want.Wink [;)]

Biggest trouble is finding correct parts, still havent found the right drivers for my Single.

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, August 24, 2007 1:04 AM
Yeah Ralph, guess I will always have to build my MOW units Grumpy [|(]
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Posted by cabbage on Friday, August 24, 2007 12:58 AM
Ok -here I can claim to be impartial -as I am a devout scratch builder!!!

This is my favourite engine, to me it epitomises all that was graceful about the Edwardian era locomotives, after the madness of the Victorian Railway Companies. There are no models or kits for this engine, just that once a year we commune -over a few glasses of beer...

This is: The Great Central Railways, Director Class Locomotive, Butler Henderson.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH1.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH2.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH3.JPG

Here you can see "the reach rod" from the drivers cab to the lifting arm of the Stephensons valve gear -for reverse.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH4.JPG

Here are a few shots of the Stephensons valve gear with the cylinders in the typical English position -between the frames, and those frames are 1 inch thick...

The next shot shows the eccentrics to the gear -with the drive rods from the pistons at either side. The large red drum objects are the counterweights to the lifting arms

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH5.JPG

The valve chest.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH6.JPG

The cab

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/sheila.capella/BH6.JPG

I find her absolutely beautiful.

regards

ralph

The Home of Articulated Ugliness

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:51 PM

MOW units.

da Frog

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:41 PM

 LGBtrains1963 wrote:
I would like to see the 2-8-4 Berkshire in Nickle Plate Road made, This engine is a real monster and looks great... That is just one I want to see made... Thanks, Mark Ryan

Like this? Aster makes it, all you have to do is fork over enough cash to buy a good used car.

Therein lies the problem of "wishlists" alot of what is wished for already exists, its just so dam expensive that it might as well not exist. I'm in that quandry with the brass 0-4-0 Gypsy thats modeled after the Elk River "Falk" but its $800 so might as well not exist for poor little me.

Now AFFORDABLE (near $300) engines I would like to see in G...thats a horse of a different color!

Baldwin Shark 1/29

F40 1/29

Uintah 0-6-2T in 1/22.5

SR&RL 2-6-2 close to 1/22.5

Darjeeling B class 0-4-0T

Brit 2-4-0 Jumbo in 1/29 or 1/32

Brit 4-2-2 Dean Single in 1/29 or 1/32

just to name a few

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:33 PM
 hoofe116 wrote:

I want to see some of the 1840-1850 types. American, of course. And not just line engines. Switchers/shunters, passenger cars, freights--the more oddball-looking the better. Kits would be great. In plastic, not brass.

The English built some unbelievably ugly things, and huge, too. Love 'em. But, how to justify 'em on my RR? Lend-Lease, perhaps?Wink [;)]

By the way, where is that website where people build really improbable-looking RR engines, cars, etc? I thought it was Loco Locomotive, but either he changed his site or my mind's flaky. (He probably didn't change his site).

Les

I would suggest looking at Brit engines of the mid-to-late 19th century, some of the most beautiful mechanical creations ever...

Case in point: Dean Single 4-2-2 mid 19th C. wow!

However some of the post WW2 nasties were pretty unforgivable

Whatiizzit, a steam toaster?

Actually its an Austerity 0-6-0, but calling a pig a rose still a pig

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by GearDrivenSteam on Thursday, August 23, 2007 11:32 PM
Thomas the Train.
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Posted by hoofe116 on Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:46 PM

I want to see some of the 1840-1850 types. American, of course. And not just line engines. Switchers/shunters, passenger cars, freights--the more oddball-looking the better. Kits would be great. In plastic, not brass.

The English built some unbelievably ugly things, and huge, too. Love 'em. But, how to justify 'em on my RR? Lend-Lease, perhaps?Wink [;)]

By the way, where is that website where people build really improbable-looking RR engines, cars, etc? I thought it was Loco Locomotive, but either he changed his site or my mind's flaky. (He probably didn't change his site).

Les

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NEW ENGINES YOU WANT TO SEE MADE IN G SCALE...
Posted by LGBtrains1963 on Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:33 PM
I would like to see the 2-8-4 Berkshire in Nickle Plate Road made, This engine is a real monster and looks great... That is just one I want to see made... Thanks, Mark Ryan

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