THE USE OF CEMENT FOR A ROAD BED

[choo-choo rick]

 

 Hello All,

 I have been reading in some of these forums about the use of concrete for a road bed. Can any one tell me how thick to make the road bed and how wide the road bed should be?  How can i keep the track from sliding off the cement? Due to the outside weather i thought that screwing the rack to the cement would be the wrong thing to do because of the expansion and contraction of the track.

It looks like i will have to use either r-1 or r-2 curved track due to my  lay out space limitations. Also can the shorter double wheel  train cars run on the r-1 curved track?

 My starter set rolling stock has only the european style cars that have only one wheel per side on each end.I want to change to the early american train cars and steam loco's.

 Thanks for your help,Rick M.....La Crescenta,Ca.

[Mike Dorsch CJ&M r.r.]

I suppose you could do the roadbed with cement but I don't see any advantage to it . Is this track going to be on the ground ? If it is you might consider trenching beneath the rite of way and filling the trench with small stones and then floating your track on top of that . That way you could ballast the track and it would stay in place better than ballast on concrete . It would cost a lot less too . And if you want to change something in the future it would be less work . If you live in a area that gets winters like we do here in Chicago I would be concerned about the frost heaving and cracking the cement . If you still want to use cement I would just let the track "float" on the roadbed .

[Anonymous]

I would agree with Mike on this, why do you want to go the trouble of using concrete(cement)? i wouldn't unless i had good reason to. I would not fasten the track to anything, rather have it "float" on and in the ballast, i use quarry fines. I would not put stones into the fines but if i did i would be very careful what i used. Look at my posting on an impossible situation in the general section before you do anything like that.

If you have LGB rolling stock, European or American it will go around any R1 curve but it will look a bit funny if your stuff is too big. If you have too many of these curves all together and in different configuration you will have nothing but trouble with bigger stuff.

Rgds ian

[DennisB]

Garden & landscape stores carry patio stones that measure 8 inch wide by 2 feet long. They are affordable, simple to install, and can be painted any color you want. Besides, a desire to change one's layout on a regular basis is a common ailment. Keep it simple, cheap, and movable.

[whiterab]

I did my first railroad with the old trench and ballast method and had problems with wash outs in heavy rains.  Our land is in the hills and we can get significant run-off.

For the "big" layout in back I used a concrete roadbed for the initial loop as it was on flat ground and easy to do.  I made the roadbed about 3/4" wider than the ties to give my self enough room to hold the ballast.  The track still floats in the ballast as I'm in south Texas and the summer sun will cause significant expansion and contraction of the track.

Besides the fact that I no longer have to worry about wash-outs, the concrete sub-roadbed has other advantages.  I don't have to worry about settling in the sub-roadbed, the hard surface makes for trains that roll easily and it was very easy to insure the track was level when I initially put it in.

The concrete roadbed is easier than it looks to put in.  I just trenched the ground and made a moving form out of plastic garden edging.  While the concrete was setting in the form, I would trench the next section.  When the concrete had come to a good set, I'd move the form up to the next trenched section and repeat the process. A little ballast springled on the setting surface of the concrete assured a rough enough surface where the final ballast would not move.

For laying the track, I'd put it down on the concrete, cover it with ballast and then lift the track a bit to insure a good bed of ballast between the ties and the subroadbed.  If you use a ballast with a significant amount of fines such as crushed granite, the track will be solid but still able to breath with the weather changes and normal use.  It's been down for several years and only requires a bit of touch up now and then despite the weather and a big dog.

It has required far less maintenance than the original trench and fill method I used on the first layout. 

Not for everybody but it worked for me on the flat area of my layout.  I do use a different method of roadbed (Split Jaw Roadbed) on the newer sections of my layout that is more "topographically challenged" as the concrete method is harder to do when faced with grades and curves.

The depth of the concrete will vary depending on your location.  I don't have to worry about frost heave so I made the subroadbed only a couple of inches deep with no internal rebar.  In areas of the country where frost heave is significant, one should consider a deeper trench and rebar.

[FJ and G]

Why not dig a 4-6" trench and fill with crusher fines and lay the track down. Try that for a year and if it doesn't work, then use concrete. Unless you are handlaying the track, your ready to run track will easily come up and then you can put concrete. Why expend all that time, effort and money to put concrete down unless you need it for some reason? I'm glad I'm not using concrete, as I have to make some track realignments and it would be a mess trying to pull concrete out. But if you feel a need for it, go ahead. I'd say 4-6 inches of concrete should be plenty. However, if it heaves, so will your track. Ballast is much more forgiving and you can easily add to it.

[imrnjr]

Try Marty Cozad's article on myLargescale.com.  Very straight forward info.

http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/articles/concreteroadbed/roadbed01.asp

[ttrigg]

Rick:
Since you live in La Crescenta, you will not experience the heave/thaw effect that has been discussed here.  If you will take the time to read some of the other postings covering this subject in the last week or so, you will see that there are many reasons for each of the roadbed types.  Myself, I decided not to go the concrete route, as I correctly anticipated that I would be "realigning" the rails and did not want the extra work of busting out and re-pouring the concrete.

[Marty Cozad]

E-mail me on the side

[e-mail]

I can better fill you in. ITS far less work than the trench methods and has much better maintance free life.

Many folks who have visited here have gone home and done concrete to their RRs.

I had one guy tell me it took him6 hours the first try, then after a few runs he was done to 2 hours per section. 

[pimanjc]

Rick.

That guy Marty was talking about was me [at least I have said that, too - true story].  

 With concrete roadbed, you just run.  Marty's URL posted above is good advice.  Also, I have posted threads on my use of concrete and ladder roadbed in your "Switch track" thread.

Jim Carter

[choo-choo rick]

 

 Hi Thanks for your advice on the cement road bed ideas. But can you tell me how to do the "splitjaw method?" I also am faced with grades in order to cross over the bottom track and switch tracks for depots and passing sidings that are on a grade as well.Some of these intail curved track as well.

 

   Thank's Again...Rick Manalia ..La Crescenta,Ca.  e-mail [e-mail]...:)

[whiterab]

The best explanation can be found on Split Jaw's web page.  It goes in just like they say it does. 

Try;

http://www.gardenrailwayproducts.com/howdoi.html

 

 

[vsmith]

Rick

The Splitjaw method is a pvc vinyl roadbed system that is assembled under the track. Its one hellova slick system but its very expensive, its on their website. Check it out so you know all your options.

You could also use a simple post and ledger system also, using 2x pressure treated wood.

The one thing about any substraight system is this, once you put it down, thats your track plan, so planning your layout to exactly what you want (for now) becomes paramount.  If you plan to tinker with your track plan, I'd do the trench and gravel system.

We dont have to worry about frost heave, snow, or extreme rain where we live, so we dont have many of the same concerns like the guys east and north of us have to deal with. What we DO have is HEAT, and for heat, floating track is best. Rails can expand and contract as needed, so the way the track is fastened down is important. I dont beleive Marty fastens anything down it just floats held in place by the gravel on top of the concrete.If you screw down you track every foot or so in the heat it could buckle the track. If its very large then expansion track sections are an option.

My outdoor layout was a simple floater, just track on gravel and for the short year I had it it always was ready to go. It was imparitive to kep the track together! I used those little plastic clips to hold LGB track together (they work well!), made sure the little screws on the Aristo track were tight, used rail clamps when joining LGB to Aristo track and used conductive grease at all joiners. It was 12' W x 20' long and only needed one power connection.

My next layout, with all the stonework to build the hills will be a defacto concrete bed, but I might have a few sections of wood underlayment, well see as it develops.