Scale (or lack thereof)

[kstrong]

There was no need to change scales to get the "narrow gauge look", just change the track! I don't know why this was such a difficult concept for the manufacturers to grasp.

We already had the track. If my customers already have 500' of 45mm track in the back yard, why would I--as a manufacturer--even think that I'd expect them to rip that all out just to run my "accurately gauged" product on my new 1.5" track?

Also, larger scales using smaller scales' track is nothing new in the model railroading world. 1:20.3 using #1 gauge track is no different than On30 using HO gauge track, or Nn3 using Z gauge track. (Or 16mm using O gauge track). It's how narrow gauge has been done in model railroading for a good long while.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

Also, larger scales using smaller scales' track is nothing new in the model railroading world. 1:20.3 using #1 gauge track is no different than On30 using HO gauge track, or Nn3 using Z gauge track. (Or 16mm using O gauge track). It's how narrow gauge has been done in model railroading for a good long while.

Later,

K

 

Kevin,

 

You're right, turning back the clock won't work, there is too much out there for that.

What would work is the different mfgs at least letting the consumer know what scale the item is.

As far as the reference to the  other NG scales; our techie did some quick checking and found the following:

On30: Track gauge 16.5mm; Scale 1:48; Proto gauge should in that case be 792mm; however 30" equal 762mm ; which means a 4% error

Nn3: Track gauge 6.5mm; Scale 1:160; proto gauge should be 1040mm; 36" equal 914mm; error is 13.8%

Just for interest's sake our techie calculated On30 if the scale is  1:45; the proto gauge should be 742mm; error is 2.7%

Nm: Track gauge 6.5mm; Scale 1:160; proto gauge should be 1040; 1000mm equals 39.37"; error is 4%.

Sure looks like the errors are larger when applying imperial based measures and using a scale which has a built-in error.

But apart from the gauge error at least the mfgs tell the consumer that the scale is 1:48 or 1:160. The wild array of scales - which are not necessarily noted on the packaging - appears to be a "G" exclusive.

Regards

ER 

PS As a sales manager I sometimes wonder how others answer when a customer inquires regarding the specific scale.

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Irrespective; understanding scale is easy, implementing it is nearly impossible, but as Bob and Walt and others have said, we should all at least make an effort to get things looking somewhere near correct.

When a train pulls into a local station, the top of the carriage roof is about the same height as the bottom of the roof of the station and if you havent go that, well you are as has been said, looking pretty silly.

Rgds Ian

[Ray Dunakin]

Kstrong wrote: "We already had the track. If my customers already have 500' of 45mm track in the back yard, why would I--as a manufacturer--even think that I'd expect them to rip that all out just to run my "accurately gauged" product on my new 1.5" track?
Also, larger scales using smaller scales' track is nothing new in the model railroading world. 1:20.3 using #1 gauge track is no different than On30 using HO gauge track, or Nn3 using Z gauge track. (Or 16mm using O gauge track). It's how narrow gauge has been done in model railroading for a good long while." --
--
Yes, I know that there are narrow gauges in other scales, using track from a smaller scale. But there's also "regular" narrow gauge, such as HOn3. There's plenty of product available for HOn3. How did that get started, if manufacturers weren't willing to make models and the track to fit them? --

---
My guess that it was started by modelers trying to scratchbuild narrow gauge to true scale, and after it caught on, the manufactureres jumped on board. Perhaps this will happen someday with the various garden scales. For instance, someone modeling standard gauge in 1:29 will decide they want a narrow gauge branch, and will scratchbuilt it. If it catches on, manufacturers will start making 1:29 scale narrow guage products. Same with 1:20.3 -- people may end up scratchbuilding some 1:20.3 standard gauge stuff .

[Anonymous]

A hard way to look at it is there needs to be groups in all the scales.

NMRA and G Scale had it out. G scale needs there own boat. Every scale does.

[Capt Bob Johnson]

All this multiplicity of scales within the community (G) is exactly what keeps the manufacturer from knowing whether to fart or go blind!

Set a standard for narrow gauge and let those modelers adhere to it.  Set another standard to represent standard gauge for that community. 

Once that happens, you will see more auxilliary stuff being made!

[kstrong]

My guess that it was started by modelers trying to scratchbuild narrow gauge to true scale, and after it caught on, the manufactureres jumped on board.

Hard to say. There weren't a whole lot of resources available to scratchbuilders in 1:20.3, save for Tony "10 years ahead of his time" Ferraro's Little Railways details. As you look through the pages of GR prior to the late 90s, 1:20 was virtually non-existent. All the "serious" modelers were working in 1:24 or 1:22.5. Sierra Valley Enterprises produced the first "1:20" equipment advertised in GR, though they were industrial 4-wheel cars which could hardly be classified to any one particular scale. Hartford Products' 1:20.3 Quincy & Torch Lake wood hopper car (their first foray into 1:20) and the Bachmann 1:20.3 Shay were both announced for the first time in the same issue (April 96). A later review of Hartford's hopper car would describe the 1:20.3 movement as "growing." With two prominent manufacturers now making what I'll call "full size" narrow gauge equipment in1:20.3, the detail parts folks began to add more 1:20 parts to their product lists.

I'd hesitate to call the 1:20 movement to have been started by modelers, though. The prototype for Hartford's Q&TL car was a very small car--only 22' 6" long. At that size, it would also fit in very well with the smaller 1:22 and 1:24 equipment. (Curiously, this same cross-scale play is what I used when modifying a 1:24 Delton/Aristo hopper--loosely based on the same Q&TL car--to 1:20.3.) One would have to ask Bob Hartford if that played into his decision to use that car to test the waters of 1:20.3. All of his future offerings would be built to that scale.

Personally, I credit Bachmann for popularizing the scale. It--literally--would have gone nowhere without an affordable locomotive with which to pull the equipment. Even then, Bachmann's next offerings--the Climax, 4-4-0, and 2-6-0 were small locos, visually compatible with the 1:22/1:24 equipment. During that time, however, other manufacturers entered with larger 1:20 equipment, giving the scale a decent foothold.

But there's also "regular" narrow gauge, such as HOn3. There's plenty of product available for HOn3. How did that get started, if manufacturers weren't willing to make models and the track to fit them?

They were willing--that's the thing. Unlike large scale, HO (and O, N, etc) already existed. The narrow gauge was an outgrowth of that. There were already plenty of buildings, people, scenery, etc. to support it--the only thing needed was equipment--as there was also already a strong tradition of handlaying track. Even then, it didn't take long for ready-made track to be introduced.

For instance, someone modeling standard gauge in 1:29 will decide they want a narrow gauge branch, and will scratchbuilt it. If it catches on, manufacturers will start making 1:29 scale narrow guage products. Same with 1:20.3 -- people may end up scratchbuilding some 1:20.3 standard gauge stuff .

Already happening on both fronts. Curiously, O gauge (32mm) track scales out almost exactly for 3' gauge track in 1:29. There's not any RTR equipment built for it, but folks are scratchbuilding equipment. Bachmann's really small inaccurately named "1:20.3" equipment--not their new, accurate stuff--scales out fairly well for 1:29 narrow gauge, you just need to regauge the trucks.

There's a growing group of people doing 1:20.3 standard gauge, as well. Many are using Bachmann's 45-ton loco and widening the gauge to the correct gauge. There was a photo in the "Letters" section of a recent GR showing one such conversion. Don Niday's Iron Creek Shops offers standard gauge and dual-gauge plastic tie strips for those wanting 1:20.3 standard gauge.

I don't see either of these two pursuits gaining much steam. 1:20 standard gauge takes up a TON of space, and if I'm interested in standard gauge, I'll simply go with 1:29 for use in the garden. Likewise, 1:29 narrow gauge models are rather diminutive, and tend to get lost in the outdoors. If I'm after narrow gauge, I'll do 1:20 instead. The only time I see these coming into play is where the modeler specifically wants to show an interchange between standard and narrow gauge.

Later,

K