Camber problem...??? or are we talking super elevation...??

[RhB_HJ]

Hi all,

So that it doesn't get lost in the "BS"

QUOTE: Originally posted by Torby

[img=left]http://www.trains.com/community/forum/icons/smilies/icon_smile_dunce.gif[/img=left]I don't remember your camber post, but it sounds like something I couldn't have answered intelligently anyhow.

4 browser windows.... Not a bad idea! Right now I have 5 but I hadn't thought of putting Aristo in one, MLS in another and Garden Railways in a third.

Welllllllllllllllllllll, you probably could have answered it if the "camber" would have been termed "super-elevation". (Intentional or unintentional)

"Camber" in the NA sense is usually used in road construction and generally refers to the "crowning" of the road i.e. sloping from the center to either side. And of course in automotive parlance for the tilt, either in or out of a wheel from the perpendicular.

How this applies to track work I'd like to read! [:)][:)] And how it creates a problem I'd like to know, too. As far as I know there are two planes in trackwork a) the longitudinal and b) the transversal. You get the two aligned as required and you're in business. Well, at least that's what the 12"=1ft railways do or I think they did, last time I checked. [;)][:)][:)]

BTW you can have even more windows open, just as long as you remember which is which and what you were looking for. And that you put the kettle on to make some tea.[;)][:)][:D][8D]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by iandor

Jack Verducci is the high priest of Garden Model railways as far as i am concerned and he refers to it as camber; so as far as I am concerned camber it is.

Now just see how interested people really are in model railwys as opposed to talking about rubbish.

What about getting a small spirit level and going out and seeinhg how level your tracks are from side to side. Finite numbers aren't necessary if the bubble goes off the scale you have a camber problem, if it goes over to one side but not off the scale you may have a problem.This may be doing you more harm to smooth running than you ever thought.

I reckon it causes more trouble than you ever know and clear it up will make your layout much more reliable as far as stuff ups and derailments are concerned and also unexpected uncouplings.


Rgds Ian

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Torby

[img=left]http://www.trains.com/community/forum/icons/smilies/icon_smile_dunce.gif[/img=left]Oh. I can say something vaguely intelligently about camber. I was wondering how he got the wheels tilted...

Some do it, most don't. I would think it only applies to a high speed mainline and isn't something the N&D would have intentionally. You'll want to be careful with switches. A turnout can be a headache when there's side forces pushing the wheels to one side or the other. That's why they say, "check to see if it's level" when somebody has a troublesome turnout.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Torby

[img=left]http://www.trains.com/community/forum/icons/smilies/icon_smile_dunce.gif[/img=left]Oh. I can say something vaguely intelligently about camber. I was wondering how he got the wheels tilted...

Some do it, most don't. I would think it only applies to a high speed mainline and isn't something the N&D would have intentionally. You'll want to be careful with switches. A turnout can be a headache when there's side forces pushing the wheels to one side or the other. That's why they say, "check to see if it's level" when somebody has a troublesome turnout.

Hi [;)][:D][:D]

While I'm not the High Priest, Guru or Puhba of Garden Railways, fiddling and diddling with model railway equipment for 52 years (and counting) has taught me a few things. One of them I learned very early on: track works best when laying flat. This may seem obvious to everyone, however looking at lots and lots of track plans, pictures and right up close model railways I'm always amazed how people don't see the potential trouble spots.

Lets just mention a few that apply to Large Scale: Reverse S curves built with R1 snap track, using R1 turnouts that lead into a grade change and a S curve.Trying to "make things fit" and thereby putting tension on the track which will result in a) kinks in the track work; b) buckling of the track since one of the rails will most likely be a different length; c) unintended super-elevation which will find its own geometry (BTW never the most suitable one); d) omission of leaving sufficient gaps and/or other means for expansion.
Other sources are the track gauge and the wheel gauge, those two get checked as a matter of course in the smaller scale but forgotten on LS, not to mention the huge tolerance spread there is between the different mfgs and of course the "very generous" tolerances the NMRA stipulates.

In Ian's case this means laying track in the summer heat because it can't get hotter than middle of the summer.[;)][}:)][;)]
The track on my HOm layout (long dismantled) was handlaid in the summer heat, since it was in a large room above the garage it was plenty hot (30ºC+). Running temperature in the winter was 20-21ºC.

BTW if one applies good model railway practices along with a few things one learns from the prototype - expansion/contraction is one of them - it is not difficult to get track work which works well. For those who haven't observed this yet: on the proto there are transition curves both in the horizontal and the vertical plane, this also applies to super elevation.

To find out how your track behaves I suggest you mount a few 10" pieces of strip wood vertically to the ends of cars (exactly perpendicular and in the center) and see how they rock and roll down the track. Just don't try this in tunnels and under bridges.[}:)][;)][}:)][:D][:D]

[RhB_HJ]

That should work.[;)][:)][:)]

[Curmudgeon]

Ah, super-elevation.
No.
Unless you are running slot-trains at Warp Factor 3 or above.
When we laid the new grade up around Bald Mountain on the CCRy, it utilized about 12'6" diameter curves.
My "assistants" thought it best to super-elevate the curve while I was elsewhere on the railroad working.
When I came to the area in question, they were quite proud of what they had accomplished.
I had to burst their bubble.
Surely, said they, it will work just like we have read about.....
So, I showed them.
I ran an LGB Mogul with 6 cars up this 4%, all was well, so I stopped halfway up.
They are all smiles, until I re-start the train.
The whole train rolled off the inside of the curve.
I lay my curves level, or, if I can, reverse-elevated a bit.
11+ years, it has worked flawlessly.
TOC

[Anonymous]

No mates i am talking about having you track flat from side to side, particularly around sets of points (switches). And also not having an outward facing camber on a curve. I have got this in the past when bending and assembling my own track. i didn't try to get it and I had a hellof a job getting rid of it.



Rgds Ian

[bman36]

Hey there,
Giving this some thought today. This was the first Winter my track has seen thus far. After laying my track last fall I was only able to run a few weeks. Everything went smoothly at first. A couple of derailments occured though minor ones. Next week I should have time to take a level to my track. I am now interested in seeing what changes have occured from the freezeup. In all honesty in my excitement to get my line running the only levelling I did was by "eye". Now it's time to see what is going on where. Will report my findings after a bit of research. Later eh...Brian.

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Curmudgeon

Ah, super-elevation.
No.
Unless you are running slot-trains at Warp Factor 3 or above.
When we laid the new grade up around Bald Mountain on the CCRy, it utilized about 12'6" diameter curves.
My "assistants" thought it best to super-elevate the curve while I was elsewhere on the railroad working.
When I came to the area in question, they were quite proud of what they had accomplished.
I had to burst their bubble.
Surely, said they, it will work just like we have read about.....
So, I showed them.
I ran an LGB Mogul with 6 cars up this 4%, all was well, so I stopped halfway up.
They are all smiles, until I re-start the train.
The whole train rolled off the inside of the curve.
I lay my curves level, or, if I can, reverse-elevated a bit.
11+ years, it has worked flawlessly.
TOC

Hey TOC,

It's strictly for looks in GR modeling.

I guess those cars on your super-elevation would stay on the track if the weight and weight distribution would be scaled down from the proto. But alas it isn't.

Someone mentioned superelevating turnouts in the other thread.

Yeah well good luck ! With the "generous" tolerances that many mfgs build into their turnouts one does well to mount them as flat as possible! There will be enough snags due to the "less than perfect" manufacturing methods without tempting the gremlins with super elevation.

Mind you I built some turnouts in HOm which are in unusual positions; one is a curved turnout which is super-elevated and on a 2% grade, the other is a standard turnout which happens to be in the vertical transition curve at the beginning of a 3.5% grade. Both are "as per proto" and work without a problem. No, I wouldn't attempt the same in the garden unless I had a bullet proof sub base to mount the stuff.[;)][:)][:)]

[Capt Bob Johnson]

I find that due to the action of the prevailing NW'ly winds in winter on the as yet unprotected sand base my trains are built upon (stone & stone dust roadbed notwithstanding) I have to check the "camber" or side to side state of level each spring as the wind erosion and build make substantial changes to said levelness.

I took a stab at superelevating a curve one year and found it wasn't really worth the effort, level worked as well or better!

This spring, hopefully, this week if the darn wind will subside, i'm going to pay more attention to getting the switches perfectly level! (E'ly wind in 15 - 25 mph ramge for last 8 days has made it decidedly inhospitable to work on layout --- damp & cold)

On a longitudinal basis, I'm using 1% grade on curves and 1.75% on straightaways; hoping that the grade differential will make up for the friction increase in curved sections! Anybody got any experiance along those lines?

[Anonymous]

If you are using 040 locos the 'camber' problem is more important than you think.With a rigid frame the loco will 'pivot' on uneven track and turnouts.
An offhand and condescending manner is not always helpful RhB_HJ .There are a multitude of folk learning out there!If the train stops,instead of just giving it a shove,rock it.It may help

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railroadingman

If you are using 040 locos the 'camber' problem is more important than you think.With a rigid frame the loco will 'pivot' on uneven track and turnouts.
An offhand and condescending manner is not always helpful RhB_HJ .There are a multitude of folk learning out there!If the train stops,instead of just giving it a shove,rock it.It may help

Hi there,

Nothing to do with off-hand or condescension, this has a lot to do with basic geometry and how it applies in practical terms to garden railways.

If one chooses to disregard the basics ....................

BTW I own an Aristo Critter, it crawls through my turnouts. Why? They are handlaid to tight tolerances (NEM), perfectly flat and the frogs are powered.

[Anonymous]

Nothing to do with off-hand or condescension, this has a lot to do with basic geometry and how it applies in practical terms to garden railways.


Sorry.Can't do the quote thing!
You know that.I know that !
Be nice to them.If you don't they will revert to discussing various coffee flavors[:)]

[markperr]

It's been my experience that when using sectional track, if you attempt to nudge the curve inward when returning to a straight direction, the curve tends to super elevate (camber) on it's own, especially if the track sections are screwed together. It get's tricky and you have to constantly go back and correct it. Probably the best way to fix the problem permanently would be to have a base material that you can screw the track to and make sure that base material id dead flat (camberless?). On my free floating 8' curve, I have about a 1/2 bubble on inward superelevation, but I'm also coming down off a four degree grade. If the train is too long, it tends to straighten out. I may be able to fix it by relaxing the outer screws on the connectors, but the trade off is that I have to find another way to ensure continuity at that joint. It's just as easy to limit my train size to fifteen or so cars.

Mark

[Tom The Brat]

[img=left]http://www.trains.com/community/forum/icons/smilies/icon_smile_dunce.gif[/img=left]1/2 bubble? I thought kimbrit laid the notion of a spirit level to rest in the other thread.

[Anonymous]

Concerning "Super Elevation" just like TOC said nope and the others considering the temperature extremes. Unless a person has computer enhance eye, I honestly doubt if you could see the super elevation.


mikadousrp

[Tom The Brat]

QUOTE: I honestly doubt if you could see the super elevation.

Unless, of course, it's so extreme as to dump the cars off like TOC said.

[Curmudgeon]

This was minimal, trust me.
But, big cars, even the LGB's, did not like it at all.
Doesn't bother me any if you want to do it.
Far be it from me to try to tell you what to do.
But, when you post problems using super-elevation, just remember that knowing smile.
hehehe.
TOC

[Tom The Brat]

I had N gauge as a kid and learned to keep everything nice and flat[;)]

[RhB_HJ]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Torby

I had N gauge as a kid and learned to keep everything nice and flat[;)]

Hey Torby,

On my old HOm layout - 12mm track gauge, all code 70 handlaid track - I had superelevation on every curve. Running prototypical RhB passenger trains with up to 9 coaches was no problem at all.
Grades were up to 3.5%, one could stop any train on any grade in any curve and restart without derailments. [;)][:)]

BTW if you model mountain railways it's a real challenge to keep things "flat", nicely aligned is another matter. [;)][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

I would be surorised if Kimbrit or anyone else for thaty matter can lay the idea of using a spirit level anywhere they are essential in determining the camber of your track, if anyone knows a better way i would love to hear about it.

I have 3 sets of LGB R3 electric points (switches) in my area 3 all close together and all laid on a 4 % gradient and they work very well with all my locos going through them "at speed" with virtually no problems.

But this was not always the case and it all boiled down to the points being not flat side ti side and ther approqches not being flat. Get rid of that prolem and mysterious derailments seem to disappear.


Rgds Ian