brianel027 wrote: Hey, let's start a petition to get both MTH and Lionel to relocate back to the USA... that would be a sure fire way, though to practically eliminate the production of high end trains (if not greatly reduce), which is fine with me. I like TOY trains.
Hey, let's start a petition to get both MTH and Lionel to relocate back to the USA... that would be a sure fire way, though to practically eliminate the production of high end trains (if not greatly reduce), which is fine with me. I like TOY trains.
As our trade deficit with China continues to grow, I expect things will finally reach a breaking point and punitive tariffs will be imposed on many Chinese imports. This is likely to occur in the next Congress, after the 2008 presidential election.
When Americans are finally made aware of China's anti-competitive practices, such as the manipulation of their own currency to insure lopsided trade imbalances, foreign importers like Lionel and others will suffer the consequences.
And if we're really lucky, the U.S. Tax Code may eventually be re-written so that the above companies, which are American in name only, will no longer have American tax payers subsidizing their foreign investments for them.
While they may never return to American manufacturing, at least domestic companies will finally be able to compete on a more level playing field.
That is why I said I'm not 100% sure because I don't have the info first hand. The information comes from a few top end dealers in PA. One is a MTh dealer and the other is a Lionel dealer. Interesting though the MTH dealer has MTH company people visitng on a very regular basis.
Doesn't Weaver have some of their stuff produced in Asia?
In any event I don't have problems with buying non american trains. They buy far more of my goods than I buy of theirs.
Sorry Renovo, but I sat in the office of the owner of one train company, and had an at length conversation with another ranking officer in another one and heard out their mouths directly that more profits are made on the traditional lower end trains than on the high end ones, regardless of retail costs.
The answer for this is simple: they are made from mostly tooling that has been paid for long ago. Or from existing tooling that has had small modifications - still cheaper than the cost of starting from scratch. They (the lower end traditional products) are less costly to make and sell in far larger quantities. Not all, but many of the high end products sell in very low quanties, have limited production runs and have related recent tooling costs. The recent K-Lionel KCC SD70MAC had a run of 3,000. By comparison the KCC MP-15 had sold over 10,000 by mid-year. And the K-Line MP-15 had already been tooled up and made... and probably paid for too by the time of the KCC offering. And 3,000 units for a high end model is a BIG production run... many are less than that.
The owner of Weaver trains quite clearly stated in the pages of CTT that high end locomotives do not make money on the first run. And because many of them are so precise, you can't offer Pennsy style steamers in Santa Fe and not run into an outcry.
The push to make all these high end products can be summed up in one word: foolishness. After MTH raised the bar (really out of a grudge against Lionel), everyone responded in kind. Lionel couldn't sit by and be viewed as NUMBER 2, so they set about an aggressive new product program after they moved overseas. K-Line's owner Maury Klein stated he planned to be the number one train maker in 5 years, ran up a huge debt with Sanda Kan and went under. The never ending lawsuit between Lionel and MTH is just one more sign of the ferocious competition between these two companies, not only being played out in the marketplace but in the courtroom as well.
The first Lionel Polar Express set was made in the thousands. It wasn't enough to meet the demand and Lionel rushed thousands more. When was the last high end product that did that???? Products like Polar Express may not get the accolades from the reviewers in the train magazines, but they sell in numbers the high end products cannot touch.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
I'm not 100% sure BUTTTTTTTTTTTT they make far more profit on the high end stuff than they do with the low end stuff. Now I hope this explains the push to the high end trains.
PS I guess I'm bad too for not going or voting.
Hey, when Weaver starts making more undersized trains and "toy" trains I may buy more. Weaver trains have never been for the masses as they are scale models and not toys - and it is "toy" trains that are typically associated with both CHRISTmas and growing the hobby with kids.
That aside, take a gander at the related threads on the OGR forum: they've gone off topic into a discussion over the quality of luxury cars. I don't know folks, but I don't know any working class person who drives a BMW regardless of quality. In some ways that's how it's become with the hobby too: catalogs full of high priced items that on first look, make the hobby appear unaffordable to ordinary families - and make the hobby appear as if it is only for wealthy adults who can argue and drive BMW's.
And the proposed theory that must be some Americans willing to make minimum wage to assemble trains is a lousy arguement. Low paying jobs have high turn over problems. Despite the cost of living differences between here and the pacific rim, American's need jobs that pay somewhat livable salaries. I propose that those who love the hobby so much with their never ending lists of the no-win high end products they want made, quit their current jobs or give up their pensions and retirement benefits (a thing of the past now for a current worker, other than a 401K), and go to work for the minimum wage assembling trains... let's see how many $1,000 locos they can afford on a $10-12K yearly salary before deductions.
The ground swell for US made trains will come when people actually buy them. While there are some US companies like Weaver, Gargraves, Curtis, Dallee Electronics, etc. how many of these products are for the typical middle budget or low budget traditional-sized train buyer? Yeah, I think Curtis makes great track, but I will continue to buy 027 track because it suits my budget and more importantly, limited space requirements. Most of these US companies also make a limited focused product line, and not a vast array of products covering many areas.
I stand by what I have read and seen that the majority of buyers in the 3-rail hobby are traditionally-sized tubular operators with smaller-than-stadium sized layouts. The train makes NEED our purchases so they can funnel the profits over to make the unprofitable high end products that the most outspoken buyers want. And that's done more cheaply overseas. Even a recent thread on what loco would you like to see made that would be a sure fire hit, was full of suggestions that would mostly be unprofitable, and unpractical to make. And would likely end up as blowouts.
The train companies have responded in kind to the "me me me and only me" generation of train buyers by going overseas to try and satisfy the unsatisfiable. Most folks don't have thosands of dollars to spend per year on trains. When the train companies recognize this, maybe (BIG MAYBE) we can have some American made trains that will be simplier to make (expensive tooling/design costs) with universal designs (not as accurate, but more affordalbe to make) with not so many fragile details and complicated to assemble (labor costs), without so many failable electronics (and all the related service problems... more costs), that will have longer production runs and thus be more cost effective.
But now that sound like postwar Lionel, and that's not good enough anymore for the outspoken few.
jaabat - YES. Next question.
Well that certainly was easy.
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
I don't have cable, but I posted. Is that wrong? Does that make me a bad person?
(Yes, yes it does.)
I just figured out the smiley face guy thingy. Took me a while.
eZAK wrote: This posting was meant to rally fellow toy train enthusiast to see their beloved hobby in the national spot light.Please make a post to the above link.Thank You
This posting was meant to rally fellow toy train enthusiast to see their beloved hobby in the national spot light.
Please make a post to the above link.
Thank You
Ive left a few. PS also post on ather stuff so it doesnt look like people are just posting about the trains=
Gargraves and Ross are my choice for all future track purchases; they are MADE IN THE USA!!! as far my locomotives; 92 out of 100 are USA built....I have 2 "chionel" , one MTH and five K-line that intrude my space...Granted, they are very nice locomotives, and the Chineese are good craftsmen, but it is sad to see the jobs of my fellow AMERICANS being sold out for fifty cents a day labor in China.....As far as locomotives and rolling stock go, I don't NEEd any more, it is a hobby, not a need.,,But..USA stuff will get my first vote on all future purchases. Weaver has several items on my "git" list...and the prices are reasonable..
BDT
I hate to say this but when it comes to trains I would be guilty of voting with my dollar. That dollar I have no doubt would go to China. The only way it would stay here is if Made in America can give me the same detail for the same price. This is a hobby for me and only my spare dollars go towards it so I have to spread those dollars the way it is.
Now the important things are different and I am willing to pay more to buy American. I know I don't try to buy anything like food and toothpaste that is made outside of the States.
As an 027 operator, Weaver's production excludes me save for the 3 cars they are producing from the former Crown Model Trains tooling. The Crown woodside reefer is very nice and I for one, don't mind the plastic trucks Weaver has used. These cars don't look too out of place with smaller traditionally sized trains.
As far as the Made in America arguements, sure I'd love to buy trains made in the USA. But I point to Lionel: the moment they closed the US plant and moved off shore is exactly when they started aggressively doing a lot of new product development and tooling. US labor costs are one factor and tooling costs are another. For those who doubt the tooling costs, I was told by one train company executive that US tooling costs would be almost triple what they were overseas.
The big question in my mind is "can this hobby and the adult train purchasers live with maybe one new locomotive every few years, with far less other product introductions and far less prototypical accuracy?" And as witnessed on the other forum, I think the answer is a resounding NO.
Folks like the idea of American made, but don't want to pay for it. They don't like the idea of not having the trains they want to buy being made immediately, and they don't want them to be inaccurate, incorrect or with toy-like compromises. Most high end steam locomotives seldom have a run over a couple thousand, yet these very same locos can cost millions to bring to production before one is even sold. And some still end up being blown out.
Every single statement I have ever read or heard directly from train company owners and CEO's including Joe Hyter, say that these high end trains DO NOT make PROFITS on the first run. And still, the adult train market clamors for new products from totally new tooling in every single catalog. And in their foolish attempts to "rule the world" the train companies have more than willingly gone along with this foolishness.
At least Lionel and MDK K-Line were actually made in the US at one time. Do you really think MTH could have put of the multitude of new products from completely new tooling had they not been overseas from square one?! The answer here is also a resounding no.
Can't have it both ways. And even Weaver has to have their better locomotives made overseas inorder to be competitive with the others.
Originally posted on OGR;
Originally posted by ratpak:Anybody ever watch John Ratzenberger's, Made in America? Well Gargraves trackage, Ross switches & Weaver cars are Made In America. The first post is already on their website. Please post your 2 cents worth. Maybe we can get a groundswell of support for Don Roder,;Steven Ross Brenneisen, & Joe Hayter Here's the link;http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/12610244/m/2201968009rat
Well Gargraves trackage, Ross switches & Weaver cars are Made In America.
The first post is already on their website. Please post your 2 cents worth.
Maybe we can get a groundswell of support for Don Roder,;Steven Ross Brenneisen, & Joe Hayter
Here's the link;
http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/12610244/m/2201968009
rat
(Reprinted with permission)
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