One thing about MTH and that is they make more than just one road number per car; example FEC Trinity 100 ton hoppers have two differant road numbers like 15380 & 15383(not real numbers for MTH).
Fastrac stopped me dead in my tracks when I heard what a pair of switches cost, $180.00 or better with tax.
I have added extra ties under the tubular track from 3R Plastics and the track looks much better.
Lee F.
I stopped being brand loyal years ago. I buy what I like and what I think offeres the best value to me. Fast Track can get expensive when you need more than a few switches. However for me I liked it better than the old 0-27 track.
One thing I forgot to ask. Why is it important that MTH do anything with Rugged Rails? It appears to be a very crowded market.
I have given up on being brand loyal anymore, used to like Lionel only about 17 years ago but now will buy who ever has a good product at a decent price.
Renovo PRR, be glad that you don't have the 6-23010 series O gauge switch or you may get tempted to use it for target practice, I could not get a Williams locomotive to go thru one of those switches even when both were brand new! I can not afford Fastrac so I don't know about Fastrac and Williams locomotives.
As far as Weaver Trains I can not run them mixed with any Lionel compatible couplers, so I run them seperate or put them on the display shelf.
I find the over all selection for O engines, locomitves and rollingstock has never been better. You can find just about what ever you want in any price level. Williams even make some very nice rolling stock at prices below the Rugged Rail trim level.
If you want detail then you will have to pay more but the price range for a good engine spans from $100 to $1,000 just pick the level of detail you want. I like Williams because it reminds me of my youth with both the construction and operation of their trains. However with that said I have Lionel, MTH and even Atlas trains.
So if you are looking for the lower priced trains just expand your search to other manufactures. I just don't get hung up on who the manufacture is or what they are currently producing. I don't think it is a big concern what MTH does with their Rugged Rail line since there are other good options.
PS: JUST NOTE WILLIAMS TRAINS RUN JUST FINE ON LIONEL FAST TRACK SWITCHES. I have never run them on the older style that philly mentioned though.
Since having problems with the Lionel switches in O gauge I have gone to Gargraves track and switches and have almost no problems with the switches. Just could not get a Lionel 6-23010 or 6-23011 switch to work right for more than a week after they got to two years of age, also had terrible problems trying to run a Williams locomotive thru those switches.
About 027 switches, I have been using a pair of 027 switches on one of my mainlines and have wired them together to switch the tracks as the locomotive goes thru the switch the corresponding switch also throws to allow the locomotive to return to the same track, tied the two switchable wires together with 16 gauge two conducter wire.
Lee, I'm with Santa Fe Kent on MTH... they don't want our business, but there are plenty of others who do.
I use 027 track and despite some complaints on the modern post MPC designed switches, I've had minimal trouble with them. I do make major changes to the "footprint" size, cutting away the entire base making the "footprint" literally the size of the track only. Once in a while I have to grind down a point or make some kind of small modification, but given the price of the Lionel 027 manual switches, I won't complain. The 0-gauge switch did get a total re-design at one point and those turned out to be total flops so the older postwar style was brough back.
On the point of the low end Lionel locos, they've all been cataloged for the past decade as coming with a single motor (save for one top line version in every cataloged that is advertised with dual motors). The single motored ones include GEEPs, U-Boats and RS-3's. The trouble is that there is some miscommunication between departments at Lionel and some of those locos that are cataloged with a single motor actually come with dual motors. The Ontario Northland RS-3, the WP U36-B and the CSX U36B all had dual motors despite catalogs saying the opposite.
My advice on these locos is to not preorder or mailorder and to wait until they come out and actually see what the loco box end flap says. Or to open the box and take a quick look for yourself. The single motor diesels (with truck mounted can motors) are notoriously poor pullers and won't do much more than you say.... even adding weight doesn't help much on these. On the other hand, adding weight to the mid-1990's vintage Industrial Switchers and the cheaper DC powered plastic bodied steamers improves their pulling power immensely. I can easily pull 20 cars with my revamped Industrial Switchers and small steamers.
Lionel should absolutely drop those single motored diesels ASAP... they're bad advertising for quality of the product line and probably do more harm than good for enticing newcomers to grow in the hobby. Lionel is obviously cheapening out on these locos to maximize profits (low end items make the most money) and turning those profits towards development on the high end, which is a money losing venture on many of those items when they are first introduced. There's a Conrail GP 20 coming out later this year... I'll wait to see if they wise-up and put dual motors in it.
Williams is a very good choice Lee. The dual motored K-Line Alco FA's, S-2's and MP-15's are all much better values than any single motored Lionel convention diesel currently being made. And wisely Lionel is remaking some of these under the K-Lionel banner. Lionel has these locos priced right and I won't hesitate to recommend them to anyone. We also have the RMT Budd Car and the forthcoming S-4 (made from alternate K-Line S-2 tooling). We have the new IR steamer from Atlas, plus loads of Lionel MPC stuff for sale on the after market.
It's just unfortunate that a newcomer might not be immediately aware of all these wonderful alternatives to some of the current Lionel items. I think Lionel is doing better with starter sets, but they can do better on the single motored diesels and the transformkers. Otherwise they risk losing a new customers.
The rest of us who have been in the hobby awhile are aware of these other choices and many of us are buying more trains that don't have the word "Lionel" on the box... except maybe to mention it's compatible with Lionel.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
Brianel027,
I used to think that it was my imagination but MTH is getting too expensive for the average operator to afford.
At Ready To Roll in Miami FL they have MTH locomotives starting at $375.00 and going up $1200.00, over $1200 for the U.P. Big Boy steam engine. Most of their frieght cars are $45.00 and up! So how is a company that caters to high end market going to stay in business in today's market?
This is my two cents on today's Lionel "Lets get some quality back into the line!" Have you used the O gauge switches by Lionel is my point, had to replace all my Lionel O gauge switches made in the last 12 years(not talking about Fastrac). I bought a low priced GP-7 (paid $125.00)by Lionel about 12 years ago and it would not pull more than four quad hoppers, was using a post war ZW with just that engine getting any power.
So when the lawsuit with Lionel & MTH is over we will see who wins!!
Personally I prefer Williams trains, don't need all that high tech stuff just to run them.
mpzpw3, the train market today is far more diverse, complicated and competitive than it has ever been. Just as the train buying market is more diverse and even opinionated due to the many internet forums that cater to model trains. But in a nutshell as far as three rail trains, higher end stuff DOES NOT sell better... traditionally sized train do. And the companies all make more profit from those traditionally sized items too. I've hear from people in the companies personally. The traditional stuff is also made in larger more substantial quantities.
The high end stuff is typically low runs, and in many cases ends up being blown out. Although tere are certainly blowouts on all sorts of train products, I have noticed a very distinct trend from watching the train magazines towards the high end in the blow out department.
The typical high end buyer may spend more money on trains, and make larger purchases. But more than one train hobby shop owner has told me it is the traditional buyer that is the bread and butter of their business.
MTH has unquestionably focused more on the scale high end. They also do half the business Lionel does. And though there are a variety of reasons for this, the truth is there are far more hobbiests who can spend $100-$200 for a locomotive than there are those who can spend $600-$1000 for a locomotive. Nevermind having the space for locomotives that require 54 inch or 72 inch minimum diameter curves. The train companies know (even though sometimes they act like they don't) that making locomotives that negotiate a 31 inch diameter curve will bring far more sales. That was part of K-Line's high end appeal, that many of their upper end products were designed to operate on 031 curves.
The UMD Industrial Rail train cars sold well, and even better when the prices got reduced. K-Line's Train-19 cars sold well... I never once have actually seen the Conrail box car at a train shop.... I was always told it was a good seller, was sold out and more were on the way. Lionel's starter cars sell well. I've been told by hobby shops that they come in and go out the door in pretty good time... better than many of the more expensive cars.
Some of the train companies have been in a battle of prestige and dominance for the past decade, and I think it is this factor that has led to some of the foolishness in producing so many high end items for which there isn't enough of a market for. Yes, Lionel has taken back and repackaged Target Sets.... but how many were made and sold? Lionel only made 2,000 Acela Sets and they're still available mint if you have the money.
I'll back my point with the success of newcomer RMT. And RMT is growing their product line. Remember, the editor at OGR thought the BEEP would fail. WRONG! Obviously THERE IS a market for smaller affordable trains, whether Lionel or MTH want to make them or not. Williams seems to be holding their own (and could probably do better if they had the money to promote and market themselves) and now we have Atlas responding with their purchase and expansion of the Industrial Rail line.
And no, I don't think the disinterest in Rugged Rails has caused MTH trouble. I think it's because they have poured millions and millions of dollars into costly high end tooling that has limited makret appeal, and does little to encourage newcomers to the hobby. Unfortunately we don't know MTH's financial numbers the way we do Lionel's because of the bankruptcy status. But I for one, would not be surprised if those numbers (should they be as known as Lionel's)showed a company in more dire straights than their die-hard supporters would like to hear. And Mike has admitted to not skimping out on tooling... it's all well made for longevity. Problem is, most buyers of high end products won't settle for re-issues the way the rest of us will... they want multitudes of unprotitable totally new products (with no compromises in prototypical accuracy) from totally new tooling in every single catalog.
Remember K-Line didn't run up a debt with Sanda Kan from making affordable traditional 027 trains... they in part went out of business from making too many high end trains that the market simply could not absorb.
It is more than just producing them that is the problem. The problem is that the Rugged Rails offerings get lost in the big catalog and lost in the shelves of hobby shops. They are not featured prominently on their own merits of size and affordability
The thought that seems to be coming through is: "Everybody will have to get to scale to get the relevant or distinct Locomotives and Cars in modern schemes."
Andrew
Watch my videos on-line at https://www.youtube.com/user/AndrewNeilFalconer
I don't know how the toy train market works, but do have an opinion. It seems to me the higher end stuff sells better. I think MTH moved away from the "starter set" for a reason. Too many players in that field. With so many train importers, all of them have found their niche'.
Atlas began in 3-rail with only scale sized diesel locomotives. As many of you remember, they were the only one's who "got it right", as far as scale items went. The other manufacturer's caught on to this, and began offering specific roadname engines and rolling stock. Atlas was no longer the only game it town. They bought the Industrial Rail line, and are now into "starter sets", which are not really starter sets, but built to satisfy the traditional operator, such as myself, and, apperantly, many of you. Lionel may be trying to market to the "kiddies", as many believed K-line did, but Atlas is marketing towards the "traditional operater".
MTH has chosen the scale path. Locomotives with the 3-2 option, fixed pilots, etc. Their business plan does not include air whistles, as an example. They have closed in on Atlas's market, by making scale products that the high end of the hobby wants. I once bought four Rugged Rail cars for $12.00 apeice on-line. That's a blowout as far as the industry goes. Apperantly Rugged Rails wasn't selling very well.\
Lionel has been trying to mass market it's starter sets, which are just that, at big box stores. Using the Target set as an example, and the recent posts on the forums, I conclude, that it didn't work. Lionel makes some great products. Their scale products are fanastic. Their starter sets are so-so. Lionel tries to be everywhere, but wind up competing with themselves sometimes. As many of you know, I recently purchased a 2037 set for my nephew. It featured as much play value as a modern Lionel starter set. See what I mean?
I tend to agree with O-27Brian, that MTH may be in dire straits, but I don't think it is because of not producing more Rugged Rail products.
Yes, but you just purchased the place to put it, right?
I'm not moving very fast on my little layout either, but I get to run it every night!
Wes
Wes Whitmore wrote: lionroar88 wrote:I pre-ordered the Lionel Vixen and Comet passenger cars which were initially tagged for an August delivery. I stopped by the LHS to pick up my MTH Firehouse on Monday and the Lionel cars were already instock.So not everything is continually delayed! I wish they wouldn't have been in till August, but I am not going to complain when items are delivered early! Thanks good for you, and the LHS. So how is that firehouse working out? It looks pretty large.
lionroar88 wrote:I pre-ordered the Lionel Vixen and Comet passenger cars which were initially tagged for an August delivery. I stopped by the LHS to pick up my MTH Firehouse on Monday and the Lionel cars were already instock.So not everything is continually delayed! I wish they wouldn't have been in till August, but I am not going to complain when items are delivered early!
Thanks good for you, and the LHS. So how is that firehouse working out? It looks pretty large.
Still waiting on K-Line Super Streets track made by Lionel, new delivery date is September first, the guy at the LHS forget to say what year!! Have tried to adapt a track section to Atlas or GarGraves track a few minutes ago but GarGraves is the closest fit however it will be an extremely ruff fit/unlevel. Gargraves pins go in on the outer sides about half way, have tried an H.O. track clip for the center but no success!
For me no more pre-orders or ordering from a catalog, if I don't see it in front of me at the store-no purchase!!! Still using Choo Choo auctions for used train stuff as I don't have to wait more than the closing & shipping time, usually I can get stuff within three weeks so I am very pleased with that!!
I just ordered three Ohio State University cars that MTH put in their most recent catalog. It was due to be released in Aug, and when I ordered it, it has already been pushed to late november, early december. As long as I have it by Christmas, since it's a gift, I'm fine. There really is a lot in a catalog that must be made, and I can see where every production would just be a ton of sunk cost, just hoping to make enough back in sales to stay afloat for another year...
Hopefully this don't seem off topic but has anybody noticed the long time it takes to get anything from the catalogs of either Lionel or MTH? To me it seems that both Lionel & MTH are having financial troulbes! Why does it take over six months to get something from Lionel that was licensed and sold under K-Line name?
All this slowpoke shipping is driving me and some others to go to auction sites to buy used equipment that has already been made!!! Years ago if you listed something in a catalog you better have it available for sale!!
When all the smoke clears with the Lionel & MTH lawsuit we will see who is still around but my opion is that both Lionel & MTH are suing themselfs into the ground!! Who will be around will probally be Atlas, RMT, and Williams, this is my opion
Well, it seems that y'all pretty well have your finger on the pulse of the industry. Brian, I have several "Craftsman" box cars from the Rugged Rails line. I like them, but when I asked about the rest of the line at Sears, they had no idea what I spoke of. The same goes for Target and the sets they had from Lionel, they did not know about them and I finally found one on a lower shelf and after they went on post Christmas sale. It would be nice if these sets were available at more retail sites. The world has changed and so has the hobby. While the local hobby shop is becoming a thing of the past in many parts of the country, the mail order/on-line dealer has found a niche. This has brought the availability of trains to many areas not served by a dealer, but has limited the hobby with a lack of exposure. Not sure how to address this, but I think we are all embasadors of the hobby and it is our duty to raise the awareness of it.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
Actually Andrew many of those RailKing items you refer to are also large. Not necessarily full scale, but absolutely larger than most other tradtionally sized trains. Only the Railking Flat Car and Tank Car really fall into a traditionally sized category of Rugged Rails. I don't mind a little size variation on a train and I do own a few RailKing cars. But the larger size has kept that number to only a few. The Rugged Rails RailBox Box Car is very nice... certianly nicer graphics and paint than the Lionel or K-Line versions. I would own more Rugged Rails, but MTH has bothered with the line, so they obviously don't want the money from the traditionally sized operator.
Dan and Lee, you guys make some good points. While the vast quantities of used trains already made helps us guys who are already in the hobby, it doesn't help the newcomer unless some other train guy is quiding them along.
The current business model at MTH and less so at Lionel seems foolhearty to me: gee, let's tool up a new scale loco and spend $3M to do it, end up blowing out those locos to sell them and then do the same thing all over again so as to please the minority of the train buying market that seems to be completely unhappy. They like it when the train companies spend millions of dollars on limited run train items and then hate it when the train compaies consider re-running those same items in unprototypical roads. Then they come up with long want lists of other obscure locos that will also cost millions to tool up and have little chance of selling out even in in a limited run of a couple thousand. Is that dumb or what?
And on an off thought, anyone notice how quiet things have been at CoilCouplers? Not a single "dang" in months. And Neil Young has yet again pushed back his previously scheduled Archive Box Set until next year. Hmmm, could there be even more problems with Legacy? Possibly meaning more Lionel investment money is being poured into a system that probably won't see a return for some years to come.
But it's the high end that brings the prestige, even if the low end brings in the revenue. Larry and Moe are trying to rule the world, if they don't saw eachother's head off first. Wooo wooo wooo woo woo woo. K-urley would probably still be with us if they hadn't decided to also rule the world by spending money they didn't have and then take a short cut to the technology throne.
There have been, and still are companies trying to give Larry and Moe a run from the dollars. Williams just doesn't have the name recognition and the retail network, or I suspect they could be far more succesful. They make track and transformers too.
And despite the problems with the BEEP, RMT is continuing to offer the kinds of products many want. The BUDDY is a much less problematic runner on 027 track than the BEEP, and we'll see what RMT does with the upcoming S-4. Despite my recent thread about my BEEP rebuild, I'm still excited about what RMT is doing. There's the new 2-bay hoppers and a new ore car coming too.
And Atlas is introducing a track line under the Industrial Rails banner. There's a transformer, sets, a nice looking Atlantic steamer and a new better sized caboose than the previous IR UMD version. So there's another company that is seeing the light.
Yeah, I've personally written off MTH. If they survive this legal mess (my gut feeling is that they too are in deep money trouble), they seem to be focused on the high end, so fine. Lionel has been making moves with the train set and add on line. Hopefully they'll cancell or stall one high end project to tool up some kind of modern diesel in an 027 size range... I think that could be a big hit.
Well said Dan, because I think Lionel and MTH are pushing to sell the high dollar items.
Not sure if Atlas makes sets with track in O gauge or not but they should.
Williams would do well to come out with a train set that has track and transformer, I like the quality that Williams Trains has.
Let's give the Lion(Lionel) and the Wolf(MTH) a run for the money!!!
It's simple to me--if only scale items are made, I'll be strictly in the used rolling stock/engine bins and ebay. I'm not into scale, even though i've got a scale hudson and some cars. I like the little toys and tubular track. If mike and Lionel ignore the market, the market will ignore them.
To each, his own. I know a lot of toy train lovers still around like me.
Dan
The hard to find a market argument is very dissapointing.
Consider all the Sub-Scale or Semi-Scale items that were in the RailKing Line back between 1995-2000 that would now be considered Rugged Rails proportions. MTH has slowed and stopped selling them in the regular RailKing Line. There are lot of items that would now be considered part of the Rugged Rails if they were properly categorized.
Are we now going to have to buy scale all the time. If everyone is going to buy scale then both the manufacturers, retailers, and operators will need to do extensive research to choose the right locomotives, cars, and cabooses. The extra expense and size of scale over sub-scale proportioned items will mean less of the scale will be sold.
Bob, I think your point is a given and is well illustrated by the recent rash of re-packaged Target sets showing up for sale. Obviously Target didn't sell all of their orginal allotment. BUT the market for high end trains is FAR MORE finite than that of starter train sets.
With starter sets, it's not as much a case of the market for them being finite, but the resources to advertise and promote those sets is what is finite. I think there's far far more of a market for starter sets (and related traditional trains) than anyone knows or realizes.
EXAMPLE: OGR magazine published that 3,000 of the last KCC SD70 MAC diesel were made by Lionel with another 100 for repair/replacement purposes. According to OGR, this number was a large production run. During the year that the KCC MP-15 was offered, I recall speaking with someone at length at K-Line who told me that before mid-year, over 10,000 of the KCC MP-15 had been sold. It is entirely likely that number doubled or more by year's end. Last time I was in math class I believe 10,000 was a MUCH bigger number than 3,000.
Although all the train companies are not forward with production run numbers, everything I hear indicates lower end traditionally sized products are made in runs of multiple thousands. High end locos are not. 3,000 is indeed a very large number for a run of high end locomotives. Lionel made 2,000 ACELA sets and they're still out there, new and sealed, for those who are willing to spend that large figure.
Jefelectric hit the point that Lionel is just the more recognized and sought name. Even though I beleive MTH didn't offer the kinds of starter products many seek, they certainly did try. Many of their early cataloged featured photos of kids and families with the trains. And at one time they did offer a much bigger selection of sets. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the MTH Chessie F-3 Construction Set was one of their bigger sellers: the set had smaller cars and the small shorted 027-ized F3 that looks and runs great on smaller layouts.
But where the "slugging out" in this hobby NEEDS to happen is not in court or catalogs or wholesale blowouts, BUT in promoting this hobby and letting folks know that Lionel trains are still being made and there are still actually some good deals on them too. Reminds me of the 3 Stooges: while Moe and Larry were hitting each other over the head with legal hammers, Curly walked off with the ice cream cone. Time will tell who Curly will be in the train business.
Again, I've been a tireless promoter of this hobby and it still surprises me how many folks are unaware that Lionel is still in business. And if the others who don't even know what LIONEL is, there's little hope they will know what MTH, Williams, Ready Made Toys or Industrial Rail is.
The REAL battlefield is advertising.
People who don't know your product exists, won't buy it. But the potential market for starter sets makes the total market for high end train engines look like a drop in the bucket. But so long as Lionel and MTH pour their limited resources into tooling for the FINITE high end and legal wrangling, outreach advertising will never happen. Matter of fact, the only ad Lionel has bought in the past year was to explain the screw ups and delay with Legacy - a product hardly aimed at the starter market, and thus will do nada to help grow the hobby.
Bob Keller
The rugged rails line was a good attempt to keep up with Industrial Rail line of trains and K-Line Train 19, but I think that MTH is catering more to the higher end electronics. MTH is putting (proto sound system # 2)PS-2 or PS-3 into their new trains and almost forcing people to buy the DCS Control system for the trains.
Let's face facts, not everybody can spend $350.00 to $600.00 for a train set or locomotive, then spend another $300.00 for an electronic control system.
Andrew, the only one that can "come up with an idea for how to make the Rugged Rails concept stable" is Mike Wolf. I can't see MTH just giving the tooling away to Williams or RMT. And given my gut feeling that MTH is in far more money trouble than we know, I doubt these other companies could afford to buy that tooling either.
The Rugged Rails line by MTH is an afterthought to the competition brought on my UMD and the Industrial Rail line, simple as that. As was the K-Line Train-19 line. From the inception of MTH, as witnessed by the early MTH advertising, Mike has always had some contempt or disdain for 027 sized products. Early MTH ads made this clear.
And if Lionel has a hard time getting their products into mass chain retailers, I doubt MTH would have it any easier. Especially given that the general public has more recognition of the Lionel name than MTH. Years ago when I was at a Sears store, I asked an assistant manager where the MTH trains were (since Sears was supposedly carrying MTH products). The guy didn't even know what MTH was. When I explained to him that MTH trains were like Lionel he said, "Oh Lionel, I know what those are. Why didn't you say Lionel in the first place? No we don't carry Lionel trains."
Not much of a promotion for a product line when the stores that carry your products don't even know what they are.
Truthy be told, it's hard to support a product line that just barely exists. Very little has been done with the Rugged Rails line. I have a couple RR cars and like them very much. I might have more, if MTH only made some others, but they don't. And as I've said before, I think the last Railking SD90MAC (that went into the Rugged Rails line) was the very best proportioned of all the smaller modern MTH diesels. They were $150 under Railking. Then MTH moved them to Rugged Rails, dropped the electronics and raised the price $30. Then most of them were cancelled and I can see why. I wasn't about to pay more money for a convention horn only loco. Had the price been lowered $30, I probably would have pre-ordered one.
Meanwhile we have the other companies that seem to be paying a little more attention to basic lower end beginner trains. RMT continues to expand and has even announced their new 2-bay hopper will be in Conrail (hooray). Atlas is really pushing their new Industrial Rail line to new heights with sets, track, transformer and a steam engine.
If Lionel could see the light and tool up one modern 027 proportioned loco (an equal to the 1950's vintage Alco FA) right along the lines of what MTH did with the Rugged Rails SD90MAC, I'd say "who needs Rugged Rails anyways?"
Actually, it's kind of as is Mike has said the same thing sort of... "who needs the traditional 027 buyer anways?"
Ha ha. He's gonna find out.
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