Workin Hard

[Anonymous]

hey thanks, im a little slow on progress and wont be able to do anything till next week, going in the hospital for a 4 day visit on thursday. but when i return i am gonna put alot of time in! So look forward to pics. And i cant wait to see what you got going on, go ahead and post it here, ill share i dont mind!

[lionel2986]

very cool zeke, I'll have to pay close attention to your layout progress. It seems you are at the same stage as me and we both have similar questions. I'm finishing up my benchwork and spent most of the past 2 weeks cutting wood. Are you going O or 0-27? i'm going 0-27 because i like the look of the low profile and brown ties. Post some pictures when you get a chance and I'll try to do the same.

[Anonymous]

got a bunch of wood and supplys today for my buildings i am building. yes i am doing my own buildings. Almost all will be scrath built. I feel this is a very personal touch. Now i have a question about lights in buildings. What is the easiest to use and work well.as soon as i learn this wiring thing it will be easier...

[lionelsoni]

You can say that again!  I'm guessing that you're asking about how to wire the blocks to multiple transformer outputs.  If not, let me know.

You might have one transformer with several separately-controlled outputs, like a KW, ZW, or Z.  In that case, the transformer common is usually the U terminal and gets connected to the outside rails, which should not be gapped at the block boundaries.  Or you might have several transformers, in which case you need to identify one terminal, usually not U, as the common and connect all those commons to the outside rails.  If you ever make a mistake and run from a block controlled by one transformer into a block controlled by another, you will have less dramatic fireworks if you arrange to plug the transformers in so that their outputs are in phase.

Then get a single-pole-double-throw-center-off (SPDT-CO) switch for each block.  Connect the common of the switch to the center rail of the block and the other terminals each to one of the two transformer output terminals that you want to use.  Then the position of the switch determines which output is powering that block; and the center position shuts the block off entirely.  You can have as many blocks as you want and still control them with only two transformer controls; you are limited only to having only two trains moving at a time.  If you want to have more trains going at a time, you can do that in various ways with more transformer outputs, and more than one switch per block or with more complicated switches.

[Anonymous]

well i dont even know what a block is so i dont think i will ues that.....

 

thanks

 

fifedog thanks for the input sometimes my brain just stops working ( ok alot of time) i just want to make this easy and learn from experience of others h the proccess of doing this   thanks alot

[Anonymous]

Grayson wrote, "Having blocks evens out the stress on the power source, because its only giving most of its power on just 5-10 sections of track, vs. say 100 sections you might have."  He probably didn't mean to imply that powering unoccupied track puts any load on the transformer at all--it doesn't.

There are two reasons for having blocks on a traditional layout:

To be able to figure out where a problem (like a short circuit) is, by connecting the blocks one at a time.  Then you only have to figure out where the problem is within that block rather than over the whole layout.  Blocks used only for this purpose would probably be semipermanently connected to one transformer output, since you wouldn't be disconnecting them unless a problem arose.

To allow you to run more than one train at a time and control them separately.  Often folks take the easy way out and connect each block to a different transformer output.  This is okay if a train can't get from one block to another, for example, if they are on completely separate loops.  However, if they can move from block to block over the track, you need to put in an electrical switch for each block, to connect it to one or another of the transformer outputs, so that you can ensure that each train remains powered by the same output no matter where it goes on the layout.  Doing otherwise can be a fire danger.

With your modest loop, I would not use blocks but just connect the whole thing to one transformer output.

   Can you elaborate a little more? I am not a wiring wizard and want to make sure I get this right on future layouts that may use blocking control.

[Anonymous]

Grayson wrote, "Having blocks evens out the stress on the power source, because its only giving most of its power on just 5-10 sections of track, vs. say 100 sections you might have."  He probably didn't mean to imply that powering unoccupied track puts any load on the transformer at all--it doesn't.

There are two reasons for having blocks on a traditional layout:

To be able to figure out where a problem (like a short circuit) is, by connecting the blocks one at a time.  Then you only have to figure out where the problem is within that block rather than over the whole layout.  Blocks used only for this purpose would probably be semipermanently connected to one transformer output, since you wouldn't be disconnecting them unless a problem arose.

To allow you to run more than one train at a time and control them separately.  Often folks take the easy way out and connect each block to a different transformer output.  This is okay if a train can't get from one block to another, for example, if they are on completely separate loops.  However, if they can move from block to block over the track, you need to put in an electrical switch for each block, to connect it to one or another of the transformer outputs, so that you can ensure that each train remains powered by the same output no matter where it goes on the layout.  Doing otherwise can be a fire danger.

With your modest loop, I would not use blocks but just connect the whole thing to one transformer output.

   Can you elaborate a little more? I am not a wiring wizard and want to make sure I get this right on future layouts that may use blocking control.

[Anonymous]

Grayson wrote, "Having blocks evens out the stress on the power source, because its only giving most of its power on just 5-10 sections of track, vs. say 100 sections you might have."  He probably didn't mean to imply that powering unoccupied track puts any load on the transformer at all--it doesn't.

There are two reasons for having blocks on a traditional layout:

To be able to figure out where a problem (like a short circuit) is, by connecting the blocks one at a time.  Then you only have to figure out where the problem is within that block rather than over the whole layout.  Blocks used only for this purpose would probably be semipermanently connected to one transformer output, since you wouldn't be disconnecting them unless a problem arose.

To allow you to run more than one train at a time and control them separately.  Often folks take the easy way out and connect each block to a different transformer output.  This is okay if a train can't get from one block to another, for example, if they are on completely separate loops.  However, if they can move from block to block over the track, you need to put in an electrical switch for each block, to connect it to one or another of the transformer outputs, so that you can ensure that each train remains powered by the same output no matter where it goes on the layout.  Doing otherwise can be a fire danger.

With your modest loop, I would not use blocks but just connect the whole thing to one transformer output.

   Can you elaborate a little more? I am not a wiring wizard and want to make sure I get this right on future layouts that may use blocking control.

[lionelsoni]

Grayson wrote, "Having blocks evens out the stress on the power source, because its only giving most of its power on just 5-10 sections of track, vs. say 100 sections you might have."  He probably didn't mean to imply that powering unoccupied track puts any load on the transformer at all--it doesn't.

There are two reasons for having blocks on a traditional layout:

To be able to figure out where a problem (like a short circuit) is, by connecting the blocks one at a time.  Then you only have to figure out where the problem is within that block rather than over the whole layout.  Blocks used only for this purpose would probably be semipermanently connected to one transformer output, since you wouldn't be disconnecting them unless a problem arose.

To allow you to run more than one train at a time and control them separately.  Often folks take the easy way out and connect each block to a different transformer output.  This is okay if a train can't get from one block to another, for example, if they are on completely separate loops.  However, if they can move from block to block over the track, you need to put in an electrical switch for each block, to connect it to one or another of the transformer outputs, so that you can ensure that each train remains powered by the same output no matter where it goes on the layout.  Doing otherwise can be a fire danger.

With your modest loop, I would not use blocks but just connect the whole thing to one transformer output.

[fifedog]

Backdrop first (if you're using one, that is).

Trackwork and sub-roadbed (plywood/homasote or foam-board;whichever you chose).  Make that bullet proof.

Run trains for several days jussssst to make sure you like your routing.

Scenery.

[Anonymous]

zeke - on a 4x12 you probably won't need feeders.  If you notice that your trains get "the slows" on a tangent of track, you can always add a Lock-on in that area.  For now, I'd say keep it simple.  Clean track will be your best answer to any running problems with the equipment on hand...and there are a couple hundred headings on that!

Oh, was it you who asked about oil for trains?  I use Labelle light oil and Labelle light grease...a carry over from my HO and N days.

 

hey thanks fifedog...much help there..

 

see with all the terms and differnant ideas flowing threw here i easily get corn fused ...but i think i got it. I dont think i need feeders right now cuz i dont have any accesories yet, and my trains run fine aund the track i have. but i have to buy more track cuz i am shorrt some straights...so right now i am on hold...been out cutting wood and not much time on trains.

 

ok heres a dumb ? but im gonna ask anyhows. from experience is there  an order then layout should flow. for example...should you lay track first then wire it then put scenery? or what works best?

[magicman710]

Sorry to jump in zeke, but what is the difference between a "feeder" and a lock-on? Are they the same thing? Why would you need to add fiber pins and blocks if you run 1 train? Couldn't you keep adding lock-ons where the train slows down?

 

lionel2986,

A feeder is a generic term for a wire that is connected from a bus wires(a set of wires, on hot, and one ground) and connected to a lockon. A feeder and lockon can together be called a "feeder". You dont have to have fibre pins and blocks, but it is helpful if you have a large layout, and only one power source. Having blocks evens out the stress on the power source, because its only giving most of its power on just 5-10 sections of track, vs. say 100 sections you might have. You can add just extra lockons, but it can make your power source reach its limit quickly.

Also, you should'nt need extra lockons if your layout is under 15ft. x 10ft.

 

Grayson

[lionel2986]

Sorry to jump in zeke, but what is the difference between a "feeder" and a lock-on? Are they the same thing? Why would you need to add fiber pins and blocks if you run 1 train? Couldn't you keep adding lock-ons where the train slows down?

[fifedog]

zeke - on a 4x12 you probably won't need feeders.  If you notice that your trains get "the slows" on a tangent of track, you can always add a Lock-on in that area.  For now, I'd say keep it simple.  Clean track will be your best answer to any running problems with the equipment on hand...and there are a couple hundred headings on that!

Oh, was it you who asked about oil for trains?  I use Labelle light oil and Labelle light grease...a carry over from my HO and N days.

[lionelsoni]

Zeke, it sounds like you must have something like a loop that's no more than about 25 feet around.  (If your track is more complicated than that, let us know.)  Unless you have really bad track or connections, you shouldn't need anything but a single connection between the track and the transformer.  Use 14 or 12 AWG wire for that.

[Anonymous]

Zeke, I think you dont need any feeders unless your layout is more than about 10ft. x 5ft.. If so, I would just add one or two, and make the blocks isolated in between by using fibre pins in the center rail.

 

Grayson

I have no idea what you just said.....

 

what arew blocks and fibre pins....

 

my layout is L shapped....its 4ft by 12 ft and the l parrt s 4ft by 4ft

[magicman710]

Zeke, I think you dont need any feeders unless your layout is more than about 10ft. x 5ft.. If so, I would just add one or two, and make the blocks isolated in between by using fibre pins in the center rail.

 

Grayson

[Anonymous]

grrrrrrrrrrrrr..... i smashed my stinking mountain earlier. i was tinkering in the train room and i smashed my mountian.....

anyhoos......if im using the zw how many of these feeders do i need? Right now i had track set down and a train running and no feeders and it ran fine but want to do this right the first time

[Anonymous]

you know your right. I just know some ppl frown upon that so i didnt know...

 

done buying locos...well if i see em at a yard sale or something then no but...i cant drop 3-600 on new ones...or more... right now i am focusing on my table and wiring.trying to find a good book on that...

i think im just gonna try to keep this simple and go with the flow on this layout....Remember i am also doing a ho layout with my girl, so i am not able to spend as much time on my layout as id like! will keep you posted

[fifedog]

zeke - it's hard when the motive power on hand doesn't match up with the geography, but there are hundreds of people here that don't let that fact stop them.  I think you should go with the location that you would want to be trackside, and not worry about prototypical this-&-that.  Besides, are you actually DONE buying locomotives...? 

[Anonymous]

ok thanks...think i got the math part down now...thanks alot!

[lionelsoni]

Grade is the amount by which the track rises divided by the length of the track, with both measurements in the same units.  (Sometimes the track length is measured along the slope of the track, sometimes along the level.  Railroad grades are so gradual that it doesn't matter which method you use.)  To get percentage, multiply by 100.  So, for example, 6 inches rise in 10 feet is 6 (inches) divided by 120 (inches), times 100, or 5 percent.

To calculate the rise for a particular grade and track length, multiply the length by the grade in percent and divide by 100.  So, for your 12 feet at 2 percent, 144 inches times 2 divided by 100, or 2.88 inches--not much.

Opinions vary about what grade is possible; but, if there is a consensus, it is 4 percent.  Of course, it depends a lot on your individual trains.  You can set up a test before you build.

[Anonymous]

well I have got my layout design i ope and im headed to start my bridge and mountain.....if i have 12 ft of straight track whats the highest i can make my bridge off the table? I think i was told 2% is the steepest grade but i dont know how to do the math to figure out the hieght...thanks

[Anonymous]

zeke - it sounds like you want a "traditional" style layout.  Most folks in the 50's & 60's (and 70's) used good ol' grass mat.  On a 4 x 12, that should be easy.  Or, you can go a step further, and map out where your towns and industries are going.  Then use paint, sprinkling on ground foam as it dries.  If you're trying to capture California's golden grass look,  Woodland scenics offers lots of neutral yellow colors to achieve that.

 

well i was wanting to do a california 50-60 theme but my two best engines are pennsylvania and i want to try to be are and location correct. I was really want to do california gold rush possible but....

 i have a wiliams diesel gp-9 pennsylvania and a k-line penn a-5 steam switcher along with some post war lionel and marx engines...me personally i wouldnt care ...but i dont want my geogrophy to be off ...does this make sense?

so what you think?

[dwiemer]

Zeke, I put down 3/4" extruded foam on top of the plywood.  Reason for this is that many of the accessories that I have have a 3/4" base that if placed on top would look conspicuous.  I will be painting the top of the foam and then will add the ground foam in apropriate areas.  If you go this route, just make sure you remove the protective plastic coating on the foam board.  This foam board can easily be cut, sculpted for scenery, and will hold screws for track.

Dennis

[Jumijo]

My layout is set in New Hampshire, 1958. The transition period of steam to deisel, but more just because I love the time period. Still, a modern engine or a set of Amtrak coaches find their way onto the layout. It's all good.

 

Jim 

[fifedog]

zeke - it sounds like you want a "traditional" style layout.  Most folks in the 50's & 60's (and 70's) used good ol' grass mat.  On a 4 x 12, that should be easy.  Or, you can go a step further, and map out where your towns and industries are going.  Then use paint, sprinkling on ground foam as it dries.  If you're trying to capture California's golden grass look,  Woodland scenics offers lots of neutral yellow colors to achieve that.

[Anonymous]

Thats the theme for my layout. Its gonna be 50's- 60's workin hard era theme. I like the 50's and 60's. lots of good things happened. So I am just starting and will post many pics of progress along the way. I'm so ecxited to final get the ball rolling. I have a question to ask. I was wonder if anyone painted thier table first before putting anything down. i was thinking of using a certain nuetral color but was wondering if i should just paint or add paint or whatever as i go? thanks for the input and feel free to criticise anything i say or show you in this thread, i take it as a challenge to do better and i like it. Thanks,  the zekeman