How do I fix my Lionel 4-4-2?

[Brutus]

Okay, we were testing the pulling power of my newer locomotive, Lionel 4-4-2 and got up to this:

Then, it stopped.  I had it nearly full power, so maybe like 16 VAC?  I unhooked some cars, but no good.  I unhooked all cars and no go.  I unhooked tender and switched directions, then gave the loco a little shove and it would go, but sounded like a gear was out of whack?  From underneath, when I turn the drive wheels, I could see two gears on one side and they are turning fine.  I figured I picked up some dust on the track and tried again and it went faster, so okay, but when I slowed to a crawl, there was the sound, but not as bad.  So, I tried reverse.  Well, it went a little faster and a little faster, and then it slowed down and started smoking, so I killed the power.

Before I open this thing up, is there anything I should look for?  I hope there is just a loose connection....

[sir james I]

Jim,   Without seeing it a guess is all there is. It sounds like you may have split a gear or other part as it is all plastic.theres not much to them so open it  and watch the parts as you turn the wheels. You will have to look close as it will not be under stress and not easy to spot. good luck.

[Brutus]

thx - it was clicking even with only the locomotive on the track, but I'll get a really bright light and see what I can find.  I get replacement gears from Lionel, I guess?

[sir james I]

Jim I don't have one to look at but I have serviced them Another plastic part is a black bracket that holds some or all of the gears in place and they crack easy so give that a close look.

[jefelectric]

Jim,  These locos are not built for regular use on a year round layout.  More for a few laps around the tree every year.  One LHS replaced one 3 times before telling the owner she had to buy a Williams engine for her son, who was running it several hours a day.  As mentioned earlier the running gear is plastic.  If you get it fixed stick to a few cars in the future.

[Brutus]

Thanks, I guess I learned my lesson!  I think it was adding my old 3461's, those things are pretty heavy.

[wrmcclellan]

Jim,

If the gears are meshing well and the motor and gears spin OK, it could be the electronic e-unit has died. The MOSFETs which regulate the votage to the motor can fail on these.

One way to test is to get an HO DC power pack, disconnect the motor leads from the e-unit and try the motor with the DC power pack (use some clip leads or tack a couple of small wires to the motor). If all works well, then the electronic e-unit needs replacing.

Look at the Lionel P/N on the e-unit board. It will be something like 691-8054-T40 (this is a common e-unit used in many small starter locos.

Go to Lionel.com, Customer Service, Replacement Parts, and type in the number from the board. If the board does not show up, then type in Elect. E-Unit (you will get a lot of hits because smoke units will show up also) and search for your P/N. The 691-8054-T40 sells for $25.50 + shipping. Sometimes the Lionel search engine fails to recognize their part numbers. Typing "elect. e-unit" with quotes will get you two listings with the 691-8054-T40 as one of them.

While you have it open, check the smoke unit if equipped. Sometimes these melt down and the heating resistor fails. Usually the resistor opens up and does not cause any drag on the voltage to the loco. However, disconnect it if damaged and see if the loco works better before ordering a replacement e-unit.

 

[Jumijo]

Jimbo, what ever you do, and no matter what you are told, don't throw it out!!!  

[brianel027]

"These locos are not built for regular use on a year round layout.  More for a few laps around the tree every year."

Well Jefelectric, I have a couple of these starter 4-4-2 steamers one of which is now 16 years old and is still running just fine. And mine see substantial use on my layout all year long on a near daily basis. Granted I have a lot of locos and rotate them in use, but still after 16 years, I'd say not bad.

I dare say, from what I read on the other forum about the problems with the higher end locos, I'll stick with the cheaper locos even with plastic gears. I have MPC locos that are approaching 30 years old and they still run fine too.... with also regular use. And that's not to say I won't have to replace a Mabuchi motor or replace some gears.

But on the up side, I can easily find those parts (as they ARE available) and I can do the work myself without having to send it out, wait for months and months, be told parts aren't currently available and then have the loco sent back to me still not working. And I've read that scenario far too many times about the high end locos to ever want one even if it was given to me.

I do baby everything though and make sure they're cleaned and lubed. My kinds of locos are the ones that get dumped on a lot by more advanced operators, and yet they ALL work and work reliably.

[Brutus]

Thanks guys!  I'll open this thing up later and see what I find.  I'll post again and let you know what is going on.  I won't throw it away.  I told my wife, if I completely hose it up, I'll turn it into a lamp or something!  I think I could wire it so the headlight and smoke unit would work, too!  But, if I can get it rolling again, that will be better!

[brianel027]

I will add to what I said above, that there is a bit of a caution note. I'm an adult and run my trains as an adult would be more inclined to do.

The motor chassis assembly of the Lionel 4-4-2 starter steamer is pretty similar to many others. You have the cluster gear that comes in contact the the gear off the motor gear. And then you have an intermediate gear that comes in contact with the two geared wheels. Unlike other low-cost starter diesels, this intermediate gear is fairly thin and the gear teeth are not very deep. This certainly could lend itself to the gears becomming stripped or worn if the locomotive is run the way a child might be tempted to run it: using the directional switch on the transformer to halt or change direction to a locomotive that is already running at a faster speed, rather than slowing the train down to a halt by using the transformer throttle.

Now I just took a look at a couple of lower end postwar steamers I have. Those too have the same kind of thinner intermediate gear, but those ARE made of metal.

So it's not that this steamer can't provide a long life of reliable running. But the rapid start-stop method of operating (that a kid would be more inclined to do) would certainly put some quicker wear upon the gears. Given that Lionel does market this locomotive to kids, it might be advisable to make a thicker more durable plastic gear or to go back to a metal one.

I'll also add from years of operating this kind of steamer that though it will pull more cars, it would be advisable to stick to a train length of about 6-9 cars of modern fast angle wheel vintage. The traction tire on this loco is also pretty thin and of all my locomotives, requires the most frequent replacement. And I'm obviously not the only one: one time when calling Lionel parts to request these, the woman laughed and said she was very familiar with this part and knew the number off the top of her head.

[Brutus]

http://www.lionel.com/Products/ProductNavigator/_ServiceDocuments/5514_combo.pdf

I'm pretty sure this is the diagram for my model: 6-28652.  I'll start figuring this out tomorrow.

[Brutus]

I checked the gears on my 4-4-2 and they look fine to me.  Cleaned off some dust bunnies that we keep getting from the ceiling fan and tried it again, still jerking forward and no reverse.  The e-unit has a definite ozone smell.  I suspect it's either the electric motor or the e-unit circuit board.  Well, my wife said I need to take it in for service since it's only like a month old.  I've got an HO transformer in the basement and I'll try the motor first with that, as was suggested.  I'm not really sure if pulling a bunch of cars is considered abuse.  I certainly wasn't jerking it into motion or anything like that, just slowly applying power....  I can definitely feel that the motor has a little jerk as the gear turns, but I think that's the magnet(s) inside?  If the motor is okay, then I'll probably send off for a replacement e-unit.

[Anonymous]

i'll tell you how to fix this jim...its a trick i learned yrs ago.........from my grandpa...

I once came to him with a broken fishing reel..i couldnt fix it.....so you know what he said...

 

 

 

 

give it to me....if you dont know how to fix it then you dont need it.......hint hint....

 

j/k hope you get her fixed soon

[brianel027]

Jim, it's kinda hard to say without actually seeing it run, but from what you are saying, it sounds like a problem I had some years ago with a K-Line switcher which had a motor that went bad pretty quick. The Mabuchi motors are normally pretty reliable, but remember this things are mass produced and not to the higher specs like a Pittman motor.

That's not to say that your problem couldn't be related to the circuit board... it may be something as minor as a loose wire. If you bought your loco locally from a Lionel Value Added Dealer, in all honestly he should be willing to help you out on this.

I don't know if you've ever taken one of these locos apart.... kinda makes me wish Lionel would go to a solid chassis design similar to what's being used on higher end locos. At any rate, the motor is pretty easy to replace yourself and are commonly available from parts dealers should you encounter a runaround on this. You can try calling Lionel, but there was a thread on the OGR forum recently how one guy got kind of a runaround from Lionel. Jeff Kane, the Train Tender had these motors - and many other parts last time I checked. He's a great guy to deal with and comes recommended from me and many others.

If need be, I'm sure I have an extra circuit board for this loco you could have for just shipping, if that turned out to be the problem and Lionel and your dealer cannot (or more appropriately, will not) help.

[Anonymous]

  If it was me I'd find an old Lionel Jr 027 motor on Ebay, throw it in and foget about it.

[brianel027]

"If it was me I'd find an old Lionel Jr 027 motor on Ebay, throw it in and foget about it."

Not quite as simple as thowing it in there. Over the years, small and subtle changes have been made in these locomotives: in the postioning of the mounting holes, the types of mounting holes, placement of motors in the sheet metal chassis, etc. For starters, before you throw in the motor, you'd have to carefully drill and grind out a slotted hole for the mechanical e-unit lever to go though. Or you'd have to cut off the lever on the mechanical e-unit. Or you'd have to remove the mechanical e-unit and have a loco that went forward only.

Then there's the smoke unit: different types are made for differing locos with motors that require differing voltage ranges. A modern smoke unit made to operate with a DC can motored steam loco might not have a long continued life operating at a higher voltage with an open-framed AC motored loco... I've found that one out the hard way.

It's not that this kind of thing can't be done... I just recently finished a prject putting a K-Line Alco truck motor into a RMT BEEP in place of the existing motor. Yes, I was determined to do it, but it was hardly a case of just throwing it in there.

[Anonymous]

   You are correct. I didn't even realize they are putting smoke units in them now and forgot about the E-unit lever. If made to work though could be belifitial as you would have an open frame motor and metal gears. Mabey fitting an electric e-unit . I don't have either as a frame of refrence.

[Brutus]

Thanks for the info- I've bought from Jeff before and will call him up!  I see he moved, too - lots of pics on the website now!  I ordered a book on modern locomotives, too.  Actually, it wasn't hard to take apart and it will be interesting to me to try and fix it myself.  I bought it online.  There is a dealer/repair place over on Page, but that's like 45 minute drive in traffic (usually a lot) and my wife is out of town, so this is on the back burner for a week or 2 I guess.  It's okay, I've got more locomotives and I won't make this mistake again!  Man, for a little bit it was going great, very slow and steady with about a dozen cars.  Then, pffft

On this model, the motor actually screws into the frame usig the same 2 screws and pin from the little plastic piece that holds the gears in place.  The electronic e-unit has some jumpers (?) with a piece of plastic connecting them all (I guess there is some foil or wire inside) and that looks like it was heat shrunk to fit?  Or maybe I cooked it?

Thanks again guys, lots of great info and maybe this will help someone else too.

[Jumijo]

 

Jim, I asked a Lionel service tech about this. What typically happens is that the electronic e-unit gets too hot and overheats. You will most likely discover that this is the story with your engine. Replacing the e-unit is easy and affordable.

Jim 

[Brutus]

Just wanted to say thanks to all you guys for the help (also on the wiring question thread) - after trying 2 motors (I drove a screw into a replacement motor - D'oh!) and replacing the circuit board as well, I got it running again tonight!  Thanks a lot guys!!!

[dbaker48]

Really good thread.