lionel trains AC/DC ????

[lionelsoni]

Pages 32 and 33 of my 1929 Lionel catalog describe "Multivolt" transformers, direct-current reducers, and the No. 81 "Controlling Rheostat", with which "you can, when using dry or storage batteries, operate Lionel Trains at various speeds..."  It "can also be used with Lionel 'Multivolt' Transformers".

Every locomotive that I have, whether prewar or postwar, universal motor or "can" motor, with mechanical or electronic e-unit, runs on both AC and DC.  In particular, I operate several MTH can-motor locomotives on DC with the original electronic e-units in place.

Until modern times, toy-train motors were invariably universal motors.  These are mechanically commutated motors with the field and armature coils wired in series with each other.  This arrangement causes the magnetic fields of both components to reverse at the same time, so that their magnetic attraction and repulsion is the same regardless of the polarity of the current.  They are called "universal" because it is therefore unimportant to the motor whether the current is reversing or not, allowing them to operate the same way on AC or DC.  This is the same motor design used on prototype traction motors, as on the GG1, which ran on 11 kilovolts, 25 hertz, transformed to a lower voltage on-board and fed as AC directly to its motors without rectification--not that different from a toy train.

The reason for universal motors in toy and prototype trains was not originally to allow AC operation, although that became handy as AC power supplanted DC in residences.  The reason was the lack of good enough permanent magnets for DC motors.  As magnets and rectifiers became more practical in the latter half of the twentieth century, permanent-magnet DC motors were used, first in "scale" models, with the rectifier outside the locomotive and the sensitivity of the motors' direction to the DC polarity exploited to preclude any need for an e-unit, then finally in toy trains with the rectifier and electronic e-unit in the locomotive for compatibility with traditional AC operation.

Rectifier-equipped can-motor locomotives can be run on DC as is (except for disabling the whistle), using the e-unit for reversing, or with the electronics bypassed as Lee describes and reversing controlled by track-voltage polarity.  It may not be as well known that universal-motor locomotives can be run on DC as is, using the e-unit for reversing, but also with polarity-controlled reversing.  All that is required is to bypass the e-unit and then put a bridge-rectifier upstream of either the armature or the field coil, but not both.

One catch to controlling reversing of three-rail locomotives with DC track polarity is that the direction of the locomotive reverses if you pick it up, turn it around, and set it back on the track, whereas the two-rail locomotive will continue in the original direction.  This means that double heading must be done with the units always in the same relative orientation, unless you install a DPDT reversing switch in the locomotive to set which will be the "forward" direction.

I don't know why Lee has been unable to run his locomotives on DC.  The "humming noise" that he heard is also hard to understand if he was really using DC--DC motors run on DC have no reason to hum.

[phillyreading]

The post war Lionel locomtives, #224(steam) #611 diesel switcher, that I have I tried running on D.C. before and they would not work, just sat there with a humming noise.  Maybe more of the pre war loco's from before 1935 would run on D.C. than post war loco's.  The pre war loco's that I have are from 1938 & 1940 and run on A.C. only, I have tried 12 volt batteryies with them and no success.

Pre war stuff from Ives or Dorfan may run on D.C., not sure.

Lionel has made some D.C. equipped starter sets and these will only run on D.C., at least from my experiance with the D.C. loco's.

Current production Williams will run on D.C. but you must take out or bypass the circuit board controlling the direction in able to run on a D.C. transformer, and like Bob N. mentions you must disable the whistle or horn in the Williams to run on D.C.

Lee F.

[lionelsoni]

Almost all Lionel-style 3-rail locomotives run on either AC or DC, except that the whistle control must be absent or disabled for DC operation.  DC operation was common before WWII.  Some postwar locomotives were designed for DC only.  Two-rail and 3-rail American Flyer locomotives generally ran on AC or DC, but some were designed for DC only.

Two-rail HO runs on DC.  Three-rail HO (like Maerklin) runs on AC, but I suspect will run on DC too.

DCC is not like sinusoidal AC.  It is chopped DC, using pulse-width modulation to transmit data to the locomotives.

[brianel027]

For a clarification, many of today's 3-rail trains have DC can motors in them. The lesser expensive models have smaller Mabuchi DC motors, usually mounted inside the truck. Better locos have larger DC motors, most with flywheels and the motors are mounted vertically are are inside the loco body with the gear protruding into the truck. All these DC motored locos run on AC current via a small rectifier included in the circuit board reverse unit.

Lionel did make a bunch of DC only powered locos starting in the mid-1970's (no reverse unit, no rectifier) that run forward/reverse via the controller on the power pack - not a transformer. I also have quite a few of these, and with added weight and other improvements can run and pull as good as many other locos. I have some of these DC locos that will pull 20 cars or more. Actually I've tested my nephew's DC Rock Island Dockside loco at 25 cars with fast angle wheels.... I've got postwar locos that can't pull that train!!!

I run my layout on DC power and am very happy with this method and will stick with it. I've removed nearly all reverse circuit boards and with smaller locos like the Lionel Industrial Switcher, this allows for more additonal weight to be added, thus allowing me to remove the traction tire. These revamped Industrial Switcher locos of mine will pull 15 cars of mixed vintage with ease on level track.

I'm not an electronics expert so I can't explain it. But I can say wholeheartedly that these cheaper locos with truck mounted Mabuchi DC motors run so much better minus the circuit board and on DC current: speed is more consistant, they run on less current (meaning I have more reserve power) and they run quieter (less motor growl esp. on tight 027 curves). Removing some traction tires assists in that department... on locos that come with 4, I always remove at least 2 of them.

Plus the Lionel DC only locos are usually pretty cheap. I've gotten them for as little as $1.00 and on average around $10-$15. And as Jaabat demonstrated with Julia's pink steamer, these lower end locos are easily made to look so much better with a new paint job, decals and some added details. I've just been running a rebuilt Lionel MPC 8500 steamer with a DC motor and it was with ease pulling a dozen cars all with die cast trucks, 3 of those with roller pickups.

[cheapclassics]

Spankybird does not own them all as I have the rest of them :-)  Fine examples of the James Gang, the LASER, and the New Englander all reside at my domicile.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana 

 

[Buckeye Riveter]

Lionel has made several 3 rail O gauger engines that were DC. So don't assume that all 3 rail O guage is AC.

But I think you own them all.  I have only ran into one set in a store and that was years ago.

[spankybird]

Lionel has made several 3 rail O gauger engines that were DC. So don't assume that all 3 rail O guage is AC.

[challenger3980]

Hi JB,  You said you had some "Fine HO pieces" so I am going to assume that you have either the Challengers or the Turbines, both of these are really nice models. If this is what you have, you most likely didn't hurt them any, because these are dual-mode decoders in these. They will run on DC just fine (DC was the standard power for HO, until DCC came out)but they also will run on DCC (Digital Command Control) DCC systems supply a constant AC current to the track then send a digital signal superimposed on it through the rails to control the locomotives. when you hooked up AC to the track, they would detect the AC current and the decoder would automatically set itself up for DCC operation, but you didn't have a DCC system so no commands were sent to the locomotive's decoder so it just sat there waiting for a command signal addressed to it, which of course never came.

   If they were older Lionel HO locomotives such as the GS-4 Steam engines, or really any other Lionel HO locomotive, besides the Challengers or Turbines, they all would be strictly DC only. If you hooked up AC to these and turned it on and they didn't do anything ( Probably vibrated, but didn't move) and you didn't leave the power on for very long, then you probably didn't hurt them any, just try them on DC and see if they run fine, they likely will.

    If these are the Challengers or the Turbines, they are very Nice locomotives, they have an EXCELLENT sound system and are very smooth running engines, I have a very large collection of the Challengers ( very likely one of the largest private collections) and these are my all time Favorite HO locomotive. I Hope that You enjoy yours as much as I have enjoyed my own.

                                                                                    Doug

[ADCX Rob]

3 Rail O gauge - AC.

2 Rail HO - DC.

Not brand dependent.

Rob

[sir james I]

All HO used in the US will be DC although some overseas mfg. do make AC ho trains.Lionel 027 has made DC only low priced sets in the past.but none in recent years. A DC motor  will try to go both directions if AC is applied but should not hurt motor unless you continue to try and run it.on the other hand most AC train motors will run on DC.

A short add on: 2 rail american flyer runs on AC. there is a few A/F S ga engines that were made DC only and as best I remember were marked DC under the engine number.

[Buckeye Riveter]

The majority of  3 rail trains are AC and most 2 rail including HO, S and G are DC.   This is why we can run the G scale outside in the rain and the snow.

[Anonymous]

hello i was always under the assumption that lionel trains were operated by ac current. i recently procured some fine ho pieces and low and behold they would not run from my Z transformer, when i hooked them up to one of my childrens dc packs they ran fine. i know that i may have damaged them with the Z but my question is are all lionel ho's DC and is it only the O27 and, in my case super O that are ac.... any information would help thanks

JB