More TMCC questions...

[magicman710]

Well to give you a more "in depth" operation of TMCC I'll give you this table. It works with my tmcc engine, so hopefully it will work with yours.

When the locomotive is stopped: Aux1,2:Crew:Can we go? Tower: No, please stand by.   Aux1, 7: Tower:Stand by for clearance. Crew:Roger    2: Crew: Can we go? Tower:Roger, you are clear.   7: Tower:You Are clear for departure. Crew: Roger, we are clear.    Aux1, 5: Crew:Signing off!(Engine Shutdown sequence)

When the locomotive is moving: Aux1,2*: Crew:Train is arriving. Tower: Roger, you are cleared inbound.     Aux1,7* Tower: You are clear for arrival. Crew: Roger.    2: Crew:Are we cleared ahead? Tower: You are all clear.   7: Tower: Come to an immediate stop. Crew: We are stopping now.   5: Tower: Slow to caution speed. Crew: Roger, slowing now.

* Activating either Aux1, 2 or Aux1, 7 while the locomotive is in motion enables a "train has now arrived" conversation for 15 seconds. If the train stops within this time, pressing 2 or 7 will play this special conversation.

All of this, word for word, was in my locmotive's(A baltimore and ohio F3) manual. The only difference was that in the manual it was a chart, not a paragraph. 

And, the quotes said here are example conversation dialog, the actual crew talk and towercom will vary.

Hope this helps!,

Grayson

[chuck]

Manuals for all of the Lionel equipment can be found on the lionel web site, www.lionel.com

Go to Customer Service Tab, third item down are owners manuals.

Theses are broken down into broad categories.  The TMCC stuff is under the TMCC tab.  Instructions for a specific loco will be found under the locomotive tabs.

TowerCom/Crew Talk are accessed via AUX buttons.  AUX1 2 is Crew Talk, AUX1 7 is Tower Comm.  Depending on the version of RailSounds and the specific locomitive, you may get generic uninteligible chatter or a variety of disting messages under crewtalk and some later RS 4.0 and all RS 5.0 have two TowerComm messages, one for departure, one for hold.  You hit AUX2 7 to get the alternate message. 

[yallaen]

Oops..I don't have a manual...is there a way to d/l one from Lionel or something?

I quickly tested my command engine right as I was walking out the door to work...it showed up in the mail..lol..couldn't leave without testing it!

I'm having trouble with it...just need to take my time and read the manual. BUT! I got it to go forward, reverse, bell and horn work..couplers work..seems to make engine noise fine...but the box says "Towercom" and I think Crewcom..how do you get it to make the talking sounds?

 

[chuck]

You need to be able to see both the led's on the TPC as well as the LED on the Command Base.

Hit TR 1 on the CAB-1 and try to advance the throttle.  You should see the light on the command base flashing everytime the throttle is spun up.  Look at the TPC.  You should see one of the green LED's on the TPC blinking at about the same rate as the Command Base light is flashing (this should be the Comm light).  The Power LED should start to come up as the voltage is raised.  The TPC supports  80-200-400 speed steps.  If you have it set at 400, you will be spinning the dial for quite a while before it starts to put any useable voltage on the track.  This is assuming that:

a)  The Comm light on the TPC is flashing (if not, you have a problem with the Command Base cable. 

b) You have the TPC set to run in conventional mode (page 13 of the manual) 

[yallaen]

Ok, so, following the tips above..

Command Base:Serial cable is attached to TPC 300, red to Dat, Grn to Com. Another wire runs from U to outside rail of track.

TW: The Hot wire runs to the TPC 300's Hot terminal. The common wire runs to the TPC 300's Neutral wire. Voltage set to 15v at handle. Fastlink fuse inline

TPC300: Track output..Hot wire (A) runs to my terminal strip for hot wires, Common runs to the common side of the terminal strip. Hot being the center rail, Common being the outside rail.

Non-command engine on track.

I have the TPC 300 in "Run" mode

I tried to run train with remote. I can hear the TPC 300 clicking, but nada with the engine. I hit TR, then 1, then try to turn throttle..nope. I've read the book, not much info on non-command engines :( I got onto coil-coupler.com and also read..I'm doing what I think I should be doing..

Someone smack me

[chuck]

TMCC does not have "odd" needs for signal propogation other than a good earth ground and shielding for over/under tracks.  You can hook up the pwoer supply and the antenna to a bus wiring system.  DCS requires star/twister pair/ballanced wiring for proper signal propogation.  If you ever planned to add DCS, you micht want to wire accordingly.

[yallaen]

Excellent! That's EXACTLY what I needed!

I was wondering about those other terminals you mentioned..but they are not used..good..

Finally, one more thing. Since I have feeders, I can connect the A and U from the TPC to my terminal strips for the feeders, correct?

 

[chuck]

Ok, couple follow up questions..

So, using my TW as a power supply at the moment, I would take the "u" and "a" leads (hot and common) and put them onto the TPC's power inputs, correct?

From the TPC 300, A and U would be what would be considered "normal" then...A for hot, U for common (which is backwards from the TW, correct?)

A wire is run from the "U" on the back of the command base to the outside rail in addition to above?

FInally, the serial cable attached to the back of the command base...it has a red and green wire. These go to the TPC 300..but which terminals do they get attached to?

Answers to the above will get me running I believe...

TPC follows "normal/classical" convention of "U" is common and "A" is hot.

Yes, run the antenna lead from the command base to the outside rails on the lockon.  On classical tubular track, both outside rails are tied together.  If you are using Gargraves or Atlas, you may want to jumper both outside rails to improve the signal quality.

I will have to download the TPC manual from the Lionel site.  I believe that the red wire is the signal wire and the green is signal ground.  NOTE, signal ground has nothing to do with the "Common" on the track.  This is just a reference level for the RS-232.   

From page 8 of the TPC owners manual

Connect the RED wire ... to the DAT terminal...Connect the GREEN wire to the COM terminal on the TPC ....

NOTE: you can diasy chain additional serial communications devices from these terminal points (additional TPC's, ASC's, ...)

NOTE:NOTE: Do not mess  around with the AX+ and AX- terminals.  These are for future expansion purposes.

[yallaen]

Or do I run wires from the TW transformer to the TPC 300? And Power In has "Neut" and "Hot", so would that coorespond to "U" on my TW being "hot", and A (the common) being "neut"?

Yes, the TPC acts as a "transformer" in that you can regulate the track voltage remotely.  You can use the older PW transformer as a power supply for the TPC.  Please make sure you install a fast acting fuse between the PW unit and the TPC to protect the TPC.  The termal breaker in the PW unit is designed to protect your house/house wiring, not your toy trains.

re Command Control Locommotives 

Command signals will be propogated troughout the layout if you hook up the antenna lead on the command base to one of the outer rails on your layout.  It is often convenient to run this to the common terminal on the track side of the power supply but it isn't necessary.  If the COmmand Base Wall wart transformer is plugged into an appropriate three prong outlet, the signal will pretty much blanket all of your tracks.  The only cases where you get into trouble are over/under passing tracks where interference between the tracks cause problems.  This is easily solved and shouldn't be an issue.  The TMCC command signal would look like a giant sausage casing if you could actually "see" the RF energy.  It envelopes the track out to about 2"-3" on all sides. 

re Conventional operation

You use the TPC to adjust track voltage.  If you choses to use the PW transformer, get a fast acting in-line fuse to protect the new electronics and place it between the old transformer and the TPC.  Set the old transformer to max output and connect the common and hot wires of the transformer to the appropriate terminal on the TPC.  The issue isn't the "labels" on the transformer, it's getting the correct leads to the correct terminals.  You will connect the serial communications cbale from the back of the command base to the serial connectors on the TPC.  Yes, the screws on the cable don't always match properly.  Either get shorter screws or toss them.  I made my own serail cable from parts available at Radio Shack so I can't comment on the commercial ones.  I don't even have a hoood on my cable, let alone screws.  This is an RS-232 communications cable that is only runnning at 9600 baud (aka slow) and is pretty immune to noise/interference.

Suggestions/recommendations 

I would look at replacing the older transformer with a PH brick for supplying the TPC.  This will elliminate the need/concern over wire polarity/fuses.  If you want to use the older supply for the command loco's, get the inline fuse cable and use it.  I do not run my command control trains at 18 volts.  I usually set the power supply to 14-16 to save wear and tear on lights/smoke units.  I actually have multiple TPC's and bricks and set the command TPC's max voltage at 14 and leave them alone and the variable ones start out at 0. 

I have a PW ZW that I did use to control everything BUT, you can't control current flow on these units even though they are variable tap.  I can set/adjust the voltage but current will flow wherever it sees the least resistance.  I also became leary of the older PW supplies breakers and decided to relaget the ZW to auxiliary power supply (aka accessories).  
 

Ok, couple follow up questions..

So, using my TW as a power supply at the moment, I would take the "u" and "a" leads (hot and common) and put them onto the TPC's power inputs, correct?

From the TPC 300, A and U would be what would be considered "normal" then...A for hot, U for common (which is backwards from the TW, correct?)

A wire is run from the "U" on the back of the command base to the outside rail in addition to above?

FInally, the serial cable attached to the back of the command base...it has a red and green wire. These go to the TPC 300..but which terminals do they get attached to?

Answers to the above will get me running I believe...

[chuck]

Or do I run wires from the TW transformer to the TPC 300? And Power In has "Neut" and "Hot", so would that coorespond to "U" on my TW being "hot", and A (the common) being "neut"?

Yes, the TPC acts as a "transformer" in that you can regulate the track voltage remotely.  You can use the older PW transformer as a power supply for the TPC.  Please make sure you install a fast acting fuse between the PW unit and the TPC to protect the TPC.  The termal breaker in the PW unit is designed to protect your house/house wiring, not your toy trains.

re Command Control Locommotives 

Command signals will be propogated troughout the layout if you hook up the antenna lead on the command base to one of the outer rails on your layout.  It is often convenient to run this to the common terminal on the track side of the power supply but it isn't necessary.  If the COmmand Base Wall wart transformer is plugged into an appropriate three prong outlet, the signal will pretty much blanket all of your tracks.  The only cases where you get into trouble are over/under passing tracks where interference between the tracks cause problems.  This is easily solved and shouldn't be an issue.  The TMCC command signal would look like a giant sausage casing if you could actually "see" the RF energy.  It envelopes the track out to about 2"-3" on all sides. 

re Conventional operation

You use the TPC to adjust track voltage.  If you choses to use the PW transformer, get a fast acting in-line fuse to protect the new electronics and place it between the old transformer and the TPC.  Set the old transformer to max output and connect the common and hot wires of the transformer to the appropriate terminal on the TPC.  The issue isn't the "labels" on the transformer, it's getting the correct leads to the correct terminals.  You will connect the serial communications cbale from the back of the command base to the serial connectors on the TPC.  Yes, the screws on the cable don't always match properly.  Either get shorter screws or toss them.  I made my own serail cable from parts available at Radio Shack so I can't comment on the commercial ones.  I don't even have a hoood on my cable, let alone screws.  This is an RS-232 communications cable that is only runnning at 9600 baud (aka slow) and is pretty immune to noise/interference.

Suggestions/recommendations 

I would look at replacing the older transformer with a PH brick for supplying the TPC.  This will elliminate the need/concern over wire polarity/fuses.  If you want to use the older supply for the command loco's, get the inline fuse cable and use it.  I do not run my command control trains at 18 volts.  I usually set the power supply to 14-16 to save wear and tear on lights/smoke units.  I actually have multiple TPC's and bricks and set the command TPC's max voltage at 14 and leave them alone and the variable ones start out at 0. 

I have a PW ZW that I did use to control everything BUT, you can't control current flow on these units even though they are variable tap.  I can set/adjust the voltage but current will flow wherever it sees the least resistance.  I also became leary of the older PW supplies breakers and decided to relaget the ZW to auxiliary power supply (aka accessories).  
 

[magicman710]

Ignore my last post, all it does is show the wires connecting to the tpc and transformer, not how to. Sorry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[magicman710]

Go to coil-couplers.com and click on lionel tmcc. It will give you  tutorials for operating conventional and tmcc locomotives. It will show you how to connect the TPC, Command Base, Cab 1, and transformer to your layout.

I hope this helps!!!! Please post back as soon as you go to the site or if you having problems in finding the site or using the site.

P.S. You said in your post that Lionel Corp. did a bad job writing their manual, while that may be true, its lionel LLC now, Lionel CORPORATION would have never do a bad job in wrioting their manuals, just read my signature!

[yallaen]

Ok, thanks to the miracle of digital photography...here's my dilema and my quandries...

Pic above is the Command Base which is plugged into the wall (base power). On the back side of the Command base there is a computer type plug-in that's called "computer", and a thumbscrew terminal for "track", marked "U"

The cable that has been mentioned, and said that I'll think I have the wrong cable is attached...

The reason I'll think it's the wrong cable is that the screws aren't big enuff to secure the cable, correct? I think I've read a fix for that...but the other end has two wires, red and green...(no pic)

Here is the front of my Power supply, a TW transformer

Here is a pic of the back of said transformer

Now..in a "normal world", like using a ZW transformer, the "common" terminal is usually the "U" terminal, leading to the outside rail. The "A", "B", "C", or "D" is the power to the center rail. However, I understand that a TW transformer is backwards. "U" is the hot for the center rail, the one to it's right, and slighty above, is the "A" terminal, and is common or outside rail.

Here is the back of my TPC 300. This is all I received with it..just the box.

Ok, so two scenarios emerge..1 is with Command Control-equipped engines, and 2 is with post war engine. Let's start with scenario #1:

According to the back of the Command Base box, the "common", or "u" terminal of a ZW transform is attached to the outside rail, in conjunction with the track "u" from the Command Base. The center rail comes from cooresponding hot, or power terminal such as "A"

Now, in my world, the TW is backwards. So, the "power" which is "U" should go to the center rail. The "A", or common (see pic above of TW transformer) goes to the outer rail, in conjunction with the Command Base. Is this correct?

So, in Scenario 1, the TMCC equipped engine gets it's power at a constant voltage. The digital signal sent via the command base over the common, or outside rail, tells the computer inside the engine to increase or decrease voltage to the motor inside. Nothing else is needed, correct? So, I'm guessing I set the voltage handle on the TW to max, and that's it?

So...Scenario 2, postwar engine...

No computer is in the engine. So, nothing controls the voltage. If I put the power all the way up...engine takes off and runs off table :( Hence the back of the box again...

In order to run my non-TMCC, Post War steamer, I need the TPC 300 somewhere in the mix. AhHA! Now what? Let's look at the back of the TPC 300...

Here's where it get's tricky...first, from left to right, let's start with the 4 left inputs called "Comm". Under comm, there is Aux-, Aux+, Com, and Dat. I'm guessing that has something to do with the computer type cable from the Command Base, right? But the cable I have has only 2 wires..1 green, 1 red. Humm...where do these go?

Next, we have Track Out, with an "A" and a "U". Ok, see, I'm not getting this..maybe because of the next 2 inputs which are Power In, with Neut and Hot underneath. Track out seems to me like taking the wires from the terminal screws on the back of the transformer, and attaching them to the track. BRILLIANT! So, then..the TPC 300 varies the voltage to the track, allowing the conventional post war engines to be controlled by the command base, right? So, is the TPC 300 a transformer? How does it get it's power? I'm guessing that's what Power In is for..but wait! Here is why I scratch my head: What power in? Am I missing a plug in or something? Or do I run wires from the TW transformer to the TPC 300? And Power In has "Neut" and "Hot", so would that coorespond to "U" on my TW being "hot", and A (the common) being "neut"?

I hope I've clarified my stupidity to those of you with the knowledge of TMCC. To be blunt, the Lionel Corp did a poor job writing their manual. Probably doesn't help that I don't have a manual for the TPC 300. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[yallaen]

I have a cable that attaches to the command base..

It's late, I've been on a real train all day...

So, let's start with the Command equipped engine first. Do I use the TPC 300 for power? The TW for power? I know this is easy, but it's making me feel totally stupid!

The command base it the "brains" of the system, right? So you need a transformer to send power to the locomotive motors. How do you get the power to the track, and adjust the voltage to the motors? I'm making this too complicated, aren't I?

 

[csxt30]

I think you have everything but a cable to go from tour TPC 300 to your base .  I think if you do have the right cable from your base to the TPC 300, it will seem as though it is the wrong one, but it isn't. A Lionel mistake !!

Let us know if you have that cable !!

Thanks, John

[chuck]

TPC 300 is a remote control device that allows you to vary voltage to control conventional engines.  TMCC Command equipped loco's do not require a tranformer per se.  You place a fixed voltage on the track and the command electronics allow you to vary the power to the motors of each locomotive.  You can use the TW to power the track directly or use it to power the TPC.  You should install a fast acting fuse or breaker between the TW and the track or the TW and the TPC.  Modern electronics do not get along well with older style PW power supplies that use thermal breakers for protection.  I will post a diagram of how TMCC works (I have to look up the url).  This is a "conceptual" diagram oh how TMCC works.  It's from one of the old Lionel catalogs.  If you substitute the TPC for the PowerMaster you can emulate your system.  One difference between a TPC and a PowerMaster is that a TPC requires a serial line to connect the   Command Base to the  TPC.  PowerMasters have a radio receiver for a direct connection between a CAB-1 and itself.  There are only two devices that work this way, the Command Base and the PowerMaster.  All other devices receive signals from the Command Base via track signals or serial interface.

 

[yallaen]

Ok, most of the wiring on my layout is completed. As a review, here is what I currently own for power, etc.

Command controller and base unit

Recently acquired TMCC 300 unit

TW transformer

I have one conventional Lionel steamer, and a new Command engine soon to be delivered.

So, the TMCC unit was bought, used, on Ebay. Yeah, I know..Ebay..but the price was right.

I know the Command book says to hook the U wire from the command base to the common post on the ZW or powermaster. But, I'm using a TW ATM.

I thought the TMCC 300 was a transformer? But I guess it's just a controller....

Ok, in my silly world, I thought you hooked the TW to the command base, and it operated TMCC engines. Conventional engines needed a power master (good) or a TMCC 300 (better) or a TMCC 400 (best). Well, I got the "better" TMCC300.

What am I missing? Or, in other words, how do I put it all together to a. make my Command equipped engine go..and my conventional engine go? I'm sure I can read the book to figure out once it's wired..it's the wiring/power I'm brain-farted on...