Hello all.
Over the weekend I purchased the Lionel 6535 Southern 0-8-0 engine from the wonderful Todd's Trains in Wendell. It's a beautiful engine with great detail and runs like a swiss watch. This is the conventional version that I believe was discussed some time ago on this board, and comes with Trainsounds. Smokes like a champ, incidentally.
While the whistle and bell work fine, there appears to be something wrong with the chuff. It works fine in neutral. However, when you operate it, it chuffs about three times and then switches over to a sort of "Bnnn nnn nnn nnnn BRAAAAAAAAAAAAA" sound, which is the best way I can duplicate it. It sounds like either a blown automobile stereo speaker or a horrifically skipping CD.
Now, at some risk of stating the obvious, this doesn't sound right to me. But before I bother the very kind folks at Todd's, who are always very helpful, I wanted to ask (a) does anyone disagree that this sounds very wrong, as it isn't a chuff at all, and (b) whether anyone has this engine and what it is supposed to sound like.
Thanks for any advice. Again, I am very pleased with this engine but for this issue.
lionroar88 wrote:RTF:You are VERY correct that I have been posting about this engine for some time now! I have the C&O version and I have been less than happy with the sounds. I have done the following:1. Taken the engine to the LHS for repair - they installed a new speaker - no change2. Called Lionel Tech Support - they said to replace the speaker, told them that had been done, they sent a new Trainsounds board, installed this in the tender - no changeSo now I have to contact support again and see what to do. I have a feeling this is going back to Lionel for a fix. I am going to see what it will cost to upgrade to the full TMCC version...
Does yours sound similar to what I describe above? I know the guys at Todd's, who are great, will do whatever they can to address the issue, but just wanted to be informed before I talked to them about it.
Another weird thing it did, incidentally, is one time when I ran it the engine engaged in the crew dialogue WHILE RUNNING. This has not happened a second time. It was sort of strange, though. It would run one set of dialogue at certain intervals and another set every time I pressed the whistle button, directly after the whistling stopped. \
Also, when you find out how much the TMCC upgrade costs, I would appreciate you sharing the info. Thank you!
RaleighTrainFan wrote: While the whistle and bell work fine, there appears to be something wrong with the chuff .It works fine in neutral.
While the whistle and bell work fine, there appears to be something wrong with the chuff .It works fine in neutral.
It should not make any chuffing sound in neutral.
When you start it, it gives several sort of "spurts" of steam release sound very quickly (pretty much the same as pressing button 6 in TMCC), and then occasionally while in neutral. It gives three of these sounds and goes into automatic-weapon sound mode when operated.
lionroar88 wrote:RTF:The best way for me to describe the 'chuffing' is the sound a Squad Assault Weapon makes when fired in full auto mode, if your are not familiar with a SAW, then think along the lines of an M-16 fired in full auto...I've never heard the crew talk, so can't comment on that.I had a friend over on Saturday - he is an Electical Engineer and used to work for MTH - he said it could be a short ground (a wire touching the frame that isn't supposed to be touch the frame or bare metal). We didn't have time to strip her down and take a look under the hood, so can't say if that is the problem.I had to rebox her for the move in 25 days so I can't do any more diagnostics on it till after the move... sent an email to Lionel this morning...I'm very disappointed in this engine. Having dished out $375 for it (after shipping) and to have these kind of problems is just absurd!
I've never heard a SAW except when fired by R. Lee Ermey on Mail Call. The M-16 sound, which I have heard even though I last fired one 20-odd years ago, is a pretty close comparison.
BUMP
Emailed Lionel for an RMA for my 0-8-0 yesterday, got a response this morning... Your 0-8-0 is operating correctly. The engine has 4 chuffs perrevolution and due to the small wheel diameter, it does have anaccelerated chuff rate at higher speeds.Now I'm no dummy and I know what this thing sounds like and it isn't even CLOSE to a chuffing steam engine. So looks like I have to call tech support tomorrow and go through this all again. There is no way this should sound like it does. I'm not backing down on this one!
I don't have this engine. I do have the command version. It has a very pleasing chuff when opperated at switcher speeds say below 20 smph. It does feature 4 chuffs. This is done by a micro switch and cam so that the chuffs are in time with the wheel revolution. I'm not that sure how the Trainsounds work. But in theory it should feature the same setup to give you 4 chuffs.
What you are describing sounds more like an increase in voltage speeds up the chuff. The early QSI units used this method. Not sure what the actual rate was but it worked and sounded well. I had some engines years ago with them and they did have a different or faster chuff rate if I used an Al Trol Throttle to run them. Running on an old ZW they sounded perfect. They seemed to like running on a pure sine wave transformer.
What you are describing sounds an awful lot like the recent K-Line Tank engines running in command with 4 chuffs. Sounds perfect until you activate the smoke unit. Then all hell breaks loose as far as chuff rate. Sounds exactly like what you are describing. A simple diode or resistor inserted in one wire to the smoke unit solved the issue. Sorry I can't remember all the details of the fix. This was the command version with Railsounds.
You may want to try another transformer or even try running with the smoke off. I realize non of the above pertains to your particular engine but it may be worth a shot. These are great looking engines and it's a shame yours aren't performing well.
Dave Connolly wrote: I don't have this engine. I do have the command version. It has a very pleasing chuff when opperated at switcher speeds say below 20 smph. It does feature 4 chuffs. This is done by a micro switch and cam so that the chuffs are in time with the wheel revolution. I'm not that sure how the Trainsounds work. But in theory it should feature the same setup to give you 4 chuffs. What you are describing sounds more like an increase in voltage speeds up the chuff. The early QSI units used this method. Not sure what the actual rate was but it worked and sounded well. I had some engines years ago with them and they did have a different or faster chuff rate if I used an Al Trol Throttle to run them. Running on an old ZW they sounded perfect. They seemed to like running on a pure sine wave transformer. What you are describing sounds an awful lot like the recent K-Line Tank engines running in command with 4 chuffs. Sounds perfect until you activate the smoke unit. Then all hell breaks loose as far as chuff rate. Sounds exactly like what you are describing. A simple diode or resistor inserted in one wire to the smoke unit solved the issue. Sorry I can't remember all the details of the fix. This was the command version with Railsounds. You may want to try another transformer or even try running with the smoke off. I realize non of the above pertains to your particular engine but it may be worth a shot. These are great looking engines and it's a shame yours aren't performing well.
Well, since the last time I posted on this mine has been at Todd's Trains awaiting a new speaker from Lionel.
Growing somewhat frustrated that it was taking eight or more weeks to deliver a simple replacement part to my friends at Todd's, I sent a rather stiff email to Lionel noting that (a) this was a an engine bought new, and (b) I understood that quality control mishaps happen, I (c) was not pleased with the lack of reasonably prompt shipping on the replacement part.
I received a rather curt note back claiming that a new speaker had been shipped 7/25. No, "sorry about the delay," or "our apologies that we peddled a defective product." Can't say they win the gold star for customer service, these folks. I hasten to add that I mean Lionel, not my friends at Todd's, who are great people.
Please post again and let us know if the speaker actually fixes the problem.
Earl
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
ChiefEagles wrote:If I remember correctly, I've heard this engine run on Todd's layout. The guys are trying to fix it. I really think Lionel goofed on this sounds [maybe not defective but poor quality sounds]. We'll let Jerry, Steve and Terry give the verdict when the part[s] come in. If fixable, they will get it done.
This is true. It's frustrating to see their efforts held up by Lionel's slowness. The good news is that when I get it back it will be like getting a new engine again, given it's been out of commission for so long!
I have the Southern 0-8-0. I had a problem where the engine would skip chuffs. It got pretty annoying so I decided to fix it. The problem was the switch that triggers the chuff. That engine is an absolute nightmare to work on and the engine has to be almost completely disassembled to gain access to the switch. After removing the switch, I found that the switch itself could be disassembled. I took the switch apart and cleaned it thoroughly. The parts are quite tiny so you have to be careful not to loose them. I reassembled the engine after a lot of grief trying to get the shell back on. The engine is jam-packed with wiring and electronics so getting the shell on is quite difficult. I hope that engine electronics will eventually become smaller so that maintenance will be easier. Anyway, the 4 chuffs/rev now works properly.
The engine is a very nice engine when it is working.
EIS2 wrote: I have the Southern 0-8-0. I had a problem where the engine would skip chuffs. It got pretty annoying so I decided to fix it. The problem was the switch that triggers the chuff. That engine is an absolute nightmare to work on and the engine has to be almost completely disassembled to gain access to the switch. After removing the switch, I found that the switch itself could be disassembled. I took the switch apart and cleaned it thoroughly. The parts are quite tiny so you have to be careful not to loose them. I reassembled the engine after a lot of grief trying to get the shell back on. The engine is jam-packed with wiring and electronics so getting the shell on is quite difficult. I hope that engine electronics will eventually become smaller so that maintenance will be easier. Anyway, the 4 chuffs/rev now works properly. The engine is a very nice engine when it is working. Earl
Thanks Earl. I will let the guys at Todd's know about your fix. If I tried to do it the engine would be in tiny pieces and I would be in the corner in the fetal position.
One question on this engine. Is there a tether that connects the engine and tender ?
The command version that EIS mentions does feature 4 chuffs. These are activated by the mentioned switch in the engine. These engines will run on there own minus the tender. The wireless tether basically tells the tender which sounds to activate. Including the chuff. The engine features 2 pickup rollers as well as the tender for track power. If the engine in question has no connection to the tender. I'm afraid whats called Trainsounds is no more than the boxcar they feature with steam sounds. This has no idea what the engine is doing as far as wheel revolutions to activate the correct chuffing. I'm guessing the tender is simply track powered and is using the ammount of voltage to create the speed of the chuff. The 0-8-0 is a real crawler at least the command version. Even with ODYSSEY disabled. The fact that it has small drivers and low gearing probably make it run at a little higher voltage than a larger drivered engine. I'm hope I'm way off base with this and yours gets resolved. But I've read many reports of dissapointed owners of the Steam Trainsounds boxcar that trails a non sound engine. Not sure but it may be the same problem your describing.
I could swear the thing featured a wireless tether, but it's been so long since I've seen it now that I cannot be sure.
That makes sense, though, that the tender is actually a Trainsounds boxcar for all practical purposes.
Thought I would jump on board here regarding this conversational beast.
I purchased my C&O conventional 0-8-0 two weeks ago, and just love the detailed look, the crew talk dialogue, the bell & whistle sounds ...., but the chuffing sounds are unlike any other chuff sound I have heard before.
The tender slide-switch in the foward position shows "RailSounds", and the rear position shows "SignalSounds". I'm not sure where "TrainSounds" fits in, but the so-called chuff ... sounds like a machine gun, or playing card deflecting off bicycle spokes.
The new conventional control Berkshire with "TrainSounds" has an appealing chuff sound. Perhaps Lionel has gone to a different sound board which is proprietary to this unit.
I am hesitating in sending my unit back to Lionel if they standing by their opinion that the engine is operating correctly. I'm anxious to hear updates on how the forum members, and how Todds's make out with this "unconventional chuff" issue.
Looking at a Trainsounds tender in the new catalog. No connection other than the drawbar to the engine. Has all the features mentioned in the above posts including the chuff sound.
One more question. If you put the tender on a powered section of track minus the engine. As you cycle the transformer from forward , neutral and reverse do you get the same sounds ? If you get no chuffing whatsoever. Can you push the tender by hand to get the chuff effect ?
Really just trying to establish if there is any connection between the engine and tender to trigger the chuff.
Old King Coal wrote: Thought I would jump on board here regarding this conversational beast.I purchased my C&O conventional 0-8-0 two weeks ago, and just love the detailed look, the crew talk dialogue, the bell & whistle sounds ...., but the chuffing sounds are unlike any other chuff sound I have heard before. The tender slide-switch in the foward position shows "RailSounds", and the rear position shows "SignalSounds". I'm not sure where "TrainSounds" fits in, but the so-called chuff ... sounds like a machine gun, or playing card deflecting off bicycle spokes.The new conventional control Berkshire with "TrainSounds" has an appealing chuff sound. Perhaps Lionel has gone to a different sound board which is proprietary to this unit. I am hesitating in sending my unit back to Lionel if they standing by their opinion that the engine is operating correctly. I'm anxious to hear updates on how the forum members, and how Todds's make out with this "unconventional chuff" issue.
I am beginning to worry that ALL of them are messed up like this, as your description is fairly consistent with mine except that I'd describe mine as also having a blown speaker sound.
And I too was (am) baffled that an engine with "Trainsounds" has a switch to select between "Railsounds" and "Signalsounds."
Dave Connolly wrote: Looking at a Trainsounds tender in the new catalog. No connection other than the drawbar to the engine. Has all the features mentioned in the above posts including the chuff sound. One more question. If you put the tender on a powered section of track minus the engine. As you cycle the transformer from forward , neutral and reverse do you get the same sounds ? If you get no chuffing whatsoever. Can you push the tender by hand to get the chuff effect ? Really just trying to establish if there is any connection between the engine and tender to trigger the chuff.
I don't know. That's a good idea, though. But as pointed out I am pretty sure there is a wireless tether, and one has to assume it serves some kind of purpose.
Dave: Great questions. Cycling the transformer (F-N-R) without the engine on the track, or with the engine on the track but unattached to the tender, does not engage any train sound dialogue. The un-teathered engine will cycle F-N-R, however there are no chuff sounds coming from the tender.
When the whistle is activated from the transformer (modern ZW), this engages the various train sound dialogues. The bell cycles on or off when engaged. Moving the tender forward or reverse by hand without the engine attached does not engage the chuff sounds.
Chuff sounds only occur when the engine is attached to the tender, and the train is in forward or reverse motion.
Included are a couple of pictures of the wireless teather. Hope this helps.
All the best .... Dave / OKC
After looking at the pics and reading Old King Coals test results. Looks to work exactly like the command version. A simple switch closing with a cam that enables the chuffs. Should be 4 chuffs for each wheel revolution. I have the B&A command version and the chuffs are exactly in sync with the drive wheels rotation. One chuff every quarter turn. This engine runs very slow even with the ODYSSEY speed control disabled. Can't imagine anything would be different in the conventional only version unless the flywheel is notably smaller. You should be able to distiunquish and even count the chuffs at a slow crawl. It does have a fast chuff rate at speed given the small diameter of the drive wheels. Still should be a very pleasing sound at switching type speeds.
The photo shows 3 wires going to the tether. The command version has 4. Wiring looks the same colorwise except an added black wire. The only thing left is the difference between Trainsounds and Railsounds. The catalog doesn't state the differences between the 2. Although they seem to feature the same sound effects. The Tender only you can buy features no connection between the engine and tender other than the drawbar as it's universal in nature. I'm guessing some sort of cam and switch arrangement is used on the tenders axle to trigger the chuff.
You must remember that since cataloged years ago. This was the only Lionel steamer to feature 4 chuffs per rev. . With very small drivers. Other models seem to work fine with the Trainsounds board as reported but probably only featured 2 with much larger drivers. Most recently cataloged Railsounds engines now have 4. In fact they seem to note it now in the catalog.
The only thing I can come up with that there is a difference between the Railsounds board and the Trainsounds one. Perhaps the Railsounds board can distinguish the rapid chuffing better and provides a better sound. No idea what the extra wire provides on the command version. Perhaps only for the Electrocoupler. It would be interesting if you had a command version of this engine at your local shop to run that and note the sound quality. Not sure if this will work but no harm in trying. See if that tender when swapped to the conventional engine solves the problem. Although Railsounds is featured in all the command engines it will still function with conventional control.
I think a total command upgrade is doable. But probably very costly. Especially on this particular engine which features very little working room. If the Railsounds tender from the command model seems to cure it. You would probably have to buy just the Railsounds boards.
Brent, I was going to suggest buying a TMCC engine and switching shells and selling off what you don't want to get the roadname of your choice. I believe both the C&O, Southern as well as the NYC were done in the first run about 5 years ago. Even if you opted with the newer version roadnames with Railsounds 5 and did the swap it would end up costing quite a bit. The only problem you might encounter would be the antenna portion for TMCC. It's in the engine shells handrails. These are insulated from the boiler and have a wire lead that attaches to the TMCC board in the engine. I would assume at least the handrail portion with the insulators would be the same. I would hope the lighting portions feature the same leads in both versions.
I'm a fan of Lionel. But looking at the new catalog. You really have to read the specs closely on each engine. Some feature Legacy, some have Odyssey ommited, some have Railsounds and are upgradeable to TMCC, and some feature Trainsounds. These are 0-8-0's are great looking switch engines. I never heard anything other than great comments on the TMCC versions. Very well detailed and even air between the chassis and boiler. A few complaints on the earlier European sounding whistle but never one on the chuff. This engine was the first Lionel with 4 chuffs and after a lot of lobbying by many train runners many newer offerings have 4 as well. Hopefully the local dealers as well as Lionel will get these resolved as they are a great small engine.
RaleighTrainFan wrote: Well, since the last time I posted on this mine has been at Todd's Trains awaiting a new speaker from Lionel.
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