Recently I spoke to two different well known hobby shops about selling some MTH RailKing locos and cars. I was told that the RailKing line was worthless and MTH was Junk. The offer of penny's on the dollar offended me. Has this happened to any one else here?
Thanks, Toasty
Toasty -
You wouldn't by any chance be in So. Cal. would you? If so I have been in the same shop. As a matter of fact a little story:
In the mid 70's I worked at this company and had a avid interest in trains. Only MPC or used post war was available. There were 2 other guys that were also interested in trains, 1 ultimately ended up owning his own shop. I ended up on a 17 year hiatius due to family obligations. About 1 1/2 years ago that interes became alive again. I subsequently went to HIS shop and renewed the acquaintance and asked him what was new. I ended up spending a LOT of money at that shop, I was jubilent! Within a month I went to another shop about 20 miles away and was curious about the MTH stuff. The owner of the 2nd shop carried both products. He let me analyize 2 passenger cars of equal value. The comparison was unbeliveable! I really didn't buy a lot from the 2nd guy, but was really thinking.
I went back to the 1st guy awhile latter, and mentioned MTH. You would think I made a verbal attack on his mother and wife. He couldn't carry on a rationale conversation. I hardly ever go into his shop, and it is unfortunate cause I really wanted to support him. The 2nd guy has been extremely helpful and very open minded about all the various manufacturers. He has earned and receives all my business. Occasionally I have stopped at the first shop, just to boast about my latest acquisition, and maybe buy a magazine or some little miscellaneous item. My devilish objective is to flaunt how much of MY business he has lost. And from what I have found out from various people in the train club I belong to he has demonstrated on more than one occassion less than professional practices.
Overall, I have found that MTH is not really well accepted on the West Coast. And, that is very unfortunate. I now have both DCS and TMCC and am having a BLAST! I like trains! And, its nice to have a selection and not be limited to one brand.
Don
Trains are like steak, you can get a good one, a bad one, or one that's OK, not really mentionable. Many things in life are like that, not just trains and steaks! Jake
I have an MTH Shay that pulls 17 log cars fully loaded, never a problem.
Bob Keller
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Last week, while the "boss" was shopping at an out of area Mall, I wandered off (instead of waiting on one of those "hubby" chairs) and went into a Hobby Shop that displayed a lot of trains in the window. They had both Lionel and MTH products. Acting (as I often do) like I didn't know too much about trains (which I don't), I asked an opinion of MTH and Lionel. The sales person was only to glad to point out the "best" stuff. They were all MTH.
Interesting! Could it be that there was an incentive?
(NO, I didn't but anything - - as I needed a ride home )
Bob has it right. Everyone of these guys put out their share of lemons. I used to deal with a shop that turned sour towards Lionel. Lionel could not do right. I proceeded to buy my Lionel elsewhere. I still buy MTH from them. If I had to offer an opinion on who's doing a better job right now though at least from the product end I would have to say MTH. I don't know if this has to do with the lawsuits or what but they seem, at least to me, to be putting out a more consistant product with less posted issues. That being siad I would hope Lionel would come out of the funk that I precieve them to be in. Perhaps once legacy hits the streets. Unfortunately with it's delay we are being held back with what could be Lionel's best stuff.
Anyone that thinks that MW being directly involved in the train process doesn't give MTH some sort of edge is blinded by brand loyalty. It makes a difference when the bottom line directly effects you. BTW I consider myself a Lionel first guy but this is the way I see it.
Trying to update my avatar since 2020
MartyE and Kodi the Husky Dog! ( 3/31/90-9/28/04 ) www.MartyE.com My O Gauge Web Page and Home of Kodiak Junction!
I buy both Lionel and MTH. I like a lot of the different features that both have. Both seem to back there products, when having problems called up both companies and was told to send in for repair. Did so, and got back product rightly fixed. Only problem was the length of time needed to fix product about 6-8 weeks. I will continue to purchase whatever blows up my skirt.
laz57
I also buy whatever catches my attention- MTH, Lionel, Atlas,etc. IMO, MTH puts out a very detailed product (Premier line). I have only a half dozen PS-1 engines, bought back in the 90's, but all still run well and do the track from time to time. Eventually I will break down and go with the PS-2 and DCS, since the latest offerings from MTH are too nice to pass up.
And as to the notion that MTH doesen't sell over here on the west coast, come to a typical operating day at Angel's Gate Hi-railers in San Pedro, CA- you will see plenty of MTH motive power and rolling stock. Admittedly, most of us at the club buy from mail order guys back east, as few of the local LHS are willing to even meet us halfway on pricing- too bad for them.Geno
Frank (our forever postwar guy), that was great! You gave me first laugh of the morning! I personally like the MTH products when they were run by General Mills! The MTH/MPC period gets no respect!
Ok, in all seriousness it's been awhile since I was involved in the retail end of the hobby. But from my last knowledge, MTH was always more small-shop friendly in that there were no special price breaks whether you were a large or small dealer. MTH had a 3-tiered wholesale system that allowed potentially higher profits to be made on certain product lines.
On the downside, MTH always required a pretty hefty minimum pre-order with immediate payment expected. Mike has always been pretty upfront about demanding payment in a very timely fashion and has taken some criticism for it. MTH products are not available from the large wholesale network that other products are available from. At one tiime it was only direct, but I've heard there's at least one distributor carrying MTH.
So some of these negative dealer comments could potentially be aimed at MTH as a company and not the products. It might be out of some small degree of spite, not being able to afford or justify carrying MTH. Some dealers might have a desire to stock some MTH products, but not as many as required. but wholesale/distribution rules don't justify knocking the entire product line. MTH has their dealer rules, as did K-Line as does Lionel.
I've heard some dealers complain about repairs and parts for MTH. But in all honesty, there are many higher end parts that are not available from Lionel either. Many dealers cannot do the repairs they once might have. With the low wholesale margins, it isn't always worth it for them financially (at least in the short-term.... in the long-term, there's a satisfied customer).
As Allan pointed out, any dealer will promote the products they carry. I personally have no allegiance to MTH, but no axe to grind either. I never have bought much MTH because they make very little product that would appeal to an 027 operator like me. I think the last Railking (now Rugged Rails) SD90MAC is by far the very best proportioned smaller modern loco anyone has ever made. It's a super looking little loco. But they made it horn only, raised the price $30 for dropping the additional electronics and then cancelled them. Oh well. But that's business.
The legal battles and lawsuits certainly don't contribute to MTH's image. Boy, you think we 3-railer's have hard feelings, talk to some HO scale guys. I've have never heard such harsh angry words for MTH as I have from HO guys. One guy I work with told me if someone gave him an MTH HO loco, he wouldn't even waste the ammunition to shoot it.... he'd run it over with his truck! Whoa! Ouch!
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
All the MTH products that I have bought have very good quality. Can't say the same for modern Lionel, 6-23011 switches and the brand new 022 switches.
Atlas is a bit more expensive so I have stayed away for that reason.
Any more I am sticking with Williams as I don't need all the sounds and speed control features and remote uncoupling anywhere on the layout that Lionel and MTH seem to think that we must have.
Lee F.
there are two shops within 20 minutes of me. one likes mth due to the product locator and the entry level price of the rtr sets. the other likes them both but prefers people to buy the lionel starter sets because at last christmas over 50% of the mth rtr sets he sold were returned with problems(of course some of these problems might have been the operators not the train).
Don't know why shops keep badmouthing MTH other than the owner is jealous of MTH's inovation. MTH has a catanery system for use with model electric locomotives, don't see anybody else have that!
Marty,
I sent you an email concerning your post. I am curious who you are refering to, and I do not feel that it would be right to mention a name here.
In the end, like brianel suggests, I think it has more to do with the propieter's business dealings than with product quality. While I don't like MTH's issues with the batteries, I really have no problems with the products. I think they have a fine set of accessories and some nice looking rolling stock. I have heard and seen both Lionel and MTH demonized by individuals. Personally, my big problem with MTH is Mike Wolf and the personal vendetta against Lionel. It has gone on long enough and hurts the hobby. So, my bias really has nothing to do with the product line. And honestly, while I do buy mostly lionel, I will buy MTH if they have something I like. I hope this doesn't evolve into a flame war, been too much of that.
As to HO and Scale guys, I have a "scale" magazine that had some nice feature articles in it. When I read the people's responses to the prior issue's photo essay on a 3 rail layout, that even they had to admit was done well, I was totally turned off of "scale". You had to see the comments, some saying that if they ever see another 3 rail layout, they were cancelling the subscription....etc. This was all over one article! Some folks really need to get out of the house sometimes!
Personally, I think this is a great hobby, and better when folks don't get their panties in a bundle, but just enjoy it. I will continue to buy from whoever has what I want. I really have been looking more at Atlas and Weaver. And you can't rule out RMT, all have nice pieces at reasonable prices (especially as Lionel and MTH seem to keep going up).
dennis
TCA#09-63805
One of the biggest problems LHS have with MTH or Lionel is the huge amount of product the manufacturers put out. Even fairly large LHS can't stock all of it and must cherry pick, hoping they get their customers wants right when they place their orders.
MY local shop carries mostly Lionel with a sprinkling of MTH and Williams. He orders roadnames from this section of the country for the most part, and if you want something from another area (out west, for instance) you have to special order it when the new catalog comes out. He only orders enough to cover what he has advance orders on for that stuff. A big part of the problem is that the manufacturers make the LHS buy multiple items -- they can't get just one or two of a particular car. Only with some engines can they order individually. So the dealer may sell 3 or 4 boxcars and still be stuck with the other 3 for a long time.
LHS owners are having a rough go because of this phenomenon PLUS trying to compete with internet and mail order sellers who can really discount their products. For LHS to match internet prices (as a general rule) would be swift death for their business.
I've sat at my LHS while the owner and store manager went through the Lionel and K-Lionel catalogs marking what they wanted to order. Three of these, six of these, four of these - so and so will want this and we'll get a couple of extras, etc, etc, etc.
They will order from MTH if a customer asks for something, but no MTH in inventory. Likewise no Williams. They won't even order Williams for you.
I think part of teh MTH issue is that they don't want to get bogged down fixing them, particularly the Proto-1 stuff, which comes in regularly.
You went to the store to sell your trains.. Of course they will lowball you, send a buddy in to buy an MTH and watch the story they give him.
Hi, I work partime in a hobby shop where the owner acts the same way. He thinks that he should be able to make a 100% profit on everything. Plus he hates MTH for when they cut out the smaller distributors specifically one he is really good friends with. For that reason he orders alot of Lionel. Which I think Lionel is getting a little ridicouls on there prices on their products and the dealer discounts are getting shorter. For instance alot of new LIonel cars are close to $70 to where as MTH is still around $50, personally I like MTH better.
This was my first year at TCA York. And I have to say that it means alot to me when the owner of a company like MTH will talk to you and shake your hand and answer any questions you have or just talk trains. Lionel seemed a little cold.
The important thing that hobby shop owners should remember. Is that if a customer wants it you sell it to them no matter if you like the product or not. This will keep people coming back to your store because you gave them what they wanted. Simple economics supply and demand.
So in review as long as people are willing to buy it sell it.
Ralph
Frank53 -- exactly how it is at my LHS. They know their regular customers pretty well if they've been in business for a while and try to psych out what to order to keep those folks happy. It's never 100%, either, and often they only get the one chance to place an order from a new catalog. Being a LHS owner in today's train market with all the choices is not easy. And then they have to compete against the mailorder and internet guys who slice their profit to the bone and make their money on volume.
I think over the next 5 to 10 years, LHS are an endangered species.
While it's possible your dealer thought you wanted to sell him PS1 equipment and reacted negatively because of PS1's poor resale value, it's altogether likely he has some other reasons or biases. There are lots people in this hobby---hobbiests, dealers and manufacturers who are all too eager to tell you what to think and what to buy and it's not a very pleasant hobby in some ways for newcomers coming up against zealots. I don't much like MTH in some respects, as a company, but I wouldn't dream of trying to convince others not to look at what MTH has to offer in the way of products, which is considerable. Please yourself rather than anyone else:).
If you're comfortable with eBay, you might try selling your stuff there, or join TCA, LCCA, TTOS or LOTS and sell your stuff through their publications. You'll get much better prices than through a dealer who has to buy from you at roughly half what they will realize to cover their expenses and risk. Good luck.
jimtrumpie wrote:Marty, I sent you an email concerning your post. I am curious who you are refering to, and I do not feel that it would be right to mention a name here.
Jim
The owner or any of the employees of the shop never to my knowledge had badmouthed Lionel. They did however have a falling out of some sort. I never asked. I just buy my Lionel items elsewhere to support other local shops. Most of my MTH at their shop. I buy all over PGH. I don't want to make more of this than it is. I' sorry if it sounded like it was more.
BTW my email account has been down most of the day.
I have been into several of the hobby shops here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. Most are MTH dealers, but have low inventory of MTH products and favor Lionel. The owner of one hobby shop I like was to check on the availability of a MTH locomotive for me, but never called me back. Thats poor customer service or maybe I should say no customer service.
He complained to me about how expensive the locomotives are and how he could not afford to stock any of them.
What model train enthusiast wants to stand and listen to a hobby store owner whine and complain when your in his store to enjoy looking and to possibly buy?
Wayray
fifedog wrote:Laz57 - I like that short plaid number...
FIFE, I see you like the RED and black plaid. I 'm particular with the Blue, white and a touch of black. Short of course.
I have talked to a couple of owners of local hobby shops and one told me that Lionel made him buy $5000.00 of merchandise at a time & would not guarenty what they shipped to him, could be a UP Big Boy or a Lionel Docksider. Another told me that GarGraves Track made him buy at least $250.00 to get a dealer discount. Other smaller hobby shops in south Florida use vendors that buy from Lionel or MTH and sell the items that the owner requests, but this takes longer and is no guarenty either that something will be shipped.
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