Upgrading Conventional Locos with Sound

[Anonymous]

     I started using the lionel command remote and all of the features are working fine. I like the whistle better than the new lionel.

[BobbyDing]

JMSIV,

Sorry, I hadn't gone back and read this post after your last comments. Did you get your whistle working? It occured to me that the 1033 might be connected backwards if your getting a bell but no whistle. As the 1033 has no bell control (I don't think). Or maybe the sound commander wires are backwards???

Bobby

[Anonymous]

I did the install on my post war 2046 tender which is hooked up to my 736 lionel berk. I removed a wheel from the tender and on my drill press I drilled a 5/32 hole 1/16 deep. that left the magnet just proud of the surface of the wheel giving me the clearance I needed for the bar end truck. I used a tiny speck of polyurethane glue (gorilla glue) in the hole and placed the magnet, this will never come out. for the reed switch I used a blob of black silicone, placed the reed switch in it and adjusted the position and let it cure. so far the install works well, but still having whistle problems. the chuffing sounds are great. I may get another reed switch and magnet and set it up tp the smoke piston so the puffs syncronize with chuffs. I emailed electric train with my problem and am waiting for a reply.

[mpzpw3]

jmsiv,

I'm curious how you drilled into the wheel of the Williams berkshire. I ordered and installed a sound kit from Electric RR. about a year ago, and never did find a good way to attach the magnet. Also, no glue I tried would stick the reed switch to the Williams tender truck. It would be nice to read how others have done this, as adding the sound unit made my berk. run rather poorly, probably due to the magnet/glue problem. I sure could use some help with this!

[Anonymous]

hooked up my 1033 and got the bell but no whistle. still not the switch response I was looking for.  must be a slightly different frequency response.

[BobbyDing]

Hmmm. Sounds more like a Williams sound board if it has pre programmed toots. All the upgrades I've done thus far from ERR have full control of the toot duration. That is to say, while I hold the button, the toot plays, and only stops after I let go. The bell and whistle works if I use my 1033. Whistle only with the CW-80.

Bobby

 

[Anonymous]

Finished my install on 2046 tender. went well after I put on my glasses and found all the parts. sounds terrific. my unit is the steam with pensy whistle, but for some reason no bell. I am using a ZW. I wonder if I use my 1033 will the bell work?  when you blow your horn does it stay on as long as you hold the control? my whistle seems to have a programmed set of toots, won't stay on if I hold the control on.

[anjdevil2]

My package arrived yesterday, and I installed the board and speaker.  Just like Bobby said, 15 minutes, tops.  What a difference!!  It has a horn and the bell works.  It does ramp up speed, but my layout is a little noisy, so you really can't hear it too well.  Works with th CW80 (horn only) and my KW (bell only...strange but true).  That's my only complaint.

Thanks, Bobby.  Works like you said and took just as long to install!!

[USNRol]

...the instructions say to use "Zap-A-Gap" adhesive or similar. never heard of it, what kind of adhesive is it?

Zap a Gap is a well respected Cyanoacrylate (Super Glue) used very successfully throughout the R/C Airplane hobby...in which I've also been heavily involved!

Roland 

[BobbyDing]

Not sure about zap-a-gap. I'll have to look into that. Here are more details on my sound upgrade to the Docksider. I'll post a PE tender picture too, ASAP. May be a couple days.

I've left these pics at 640x480 so that details can be seen better. So they may take time to download for some. I'm hoping the pics won't load automatically, as they are all big.

First, the Docksider assembled (minus a couple details and the engineers).

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/Docksider.jpg

 

Here are closer views of the cab and the only exposed part of the Sound Commander.

The main capacitors can be seen inside the cab. Some flat black paint should help them disappear.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/RightSideCab.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/LeftSideCab.jpg

 

Here is a view with the shell off. The area that I had to trim off can be seen (silver metal inside the shell).

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/Openedunit.jpg

 

A closer view of the trimmed area, and the piece that was trimmer off so the Sound Commander would fit. This peice is normally not visible anyway.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/RemovedShellArea.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/RemovedChunk.jpg

 

Three views of the Sound Commander mounted on the back.

IMPORTANT: Notice that there is a plastic board (brown) siliconed (silicone rubber) to the bottom of the Sound Commander to insulate the Sound Commander from the frame of the Docksider. Also, all the pins on the board have been bent inwards, and have silicon rubber added over them (after the connectors are installed) to keep them from toucking the installed shell.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/SCRightSideView.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/SCRearView.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/SCLeftSideView.jpg

 

A close up of the motor with two diode pairs (under the clear heat shrink) added to up the voltage so the Sound Commander stays running, even when the Docksider is still. Only one pair was needed for this, but it helps increase the smoke too, so I added two pairs (HOO-HAAAA!!!). Diodes are Mouser part# 512-1N4004.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/AddedDiodeView.jpg

 

The underside showing the two reed switches used to trigger the chuffs. If you don't care about the chuffs, these can be left off. Or if you only want two chuffs per revolution, only one switch is needed. I mounted the two brass channels that the reed switches fit into, to avoid glueing the switches directly to the frame. In case one needs replacing in the future. Note that two holes were drilled to run the wires up into the loco. Also, contact Jon in advance and inquire about the cost for extra reed switches and magnets. Get one more of each than you need.... Just in case. You can always use them in a later project.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/ViewofReedSwitches.jpg

 

And here is a shot showing one of the magnets (little moon rock looking thing) mounted inside a back wheel. I did have to file the magnets JUST A BIT so that they cleared the frame of the Docksider when the wheel turned.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/Magnet.jpg

 

Lastly....The stock Docksider speaker is 16 ohms (orange wires). While it works, it does cause the audio to be lower. I purchased two new 8 ohm speakers from Mouser Electronics (www.mouser.com). I got two because I will be doing another Docksider soon. The part# is 253-5363. I think they were less than $5 each. Also, Mouser sells tiny reed relays too if your interested, part# 816-RI-02A (also pictured). Though I ended up using Jon's reed switches for this project, as they seem to work best. If your ordering from Mouser, get 100 1N4004 diodes. They're always useful, and they're cheap. 100 for about $4. Part# 512-1N4004. In the picture you can see the stock speaker (orange wires) pulled away from the speaker baffle. I found that it sounds better in this case without THIS baffle (on most other projects, Jon's baffle is the best choice). Your choice, but if you do not use their, you must insulate the speaker from shorting out (more silicone rubber).

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i119/BobbyDing/Speakers.jpg

 

The most importand thing is to keep the Sound Commander insulated from all areas of the frame and shell. I cannot stress this enough, as a short can blow the Sound Commander and/or the Docksider circuit boards. I used clear silicone rubber (Home Depot) all around the board to assist with this goal. Also, if I muffed it up, the silicone rubber can be removed without too much difficulty. Oh, yeah, and you'll definetely be voiding the Docksiders warrenty. Bending the pins and gooping with silicone may also void the Sound Commanders warrenty (not sure).

Hope this helps!

Bobby

[Anonymous]

I just received  the kit I ordered the other day. Put on my glasses and found all the parts. had to drill a 3/16 hole in the tender wheel(bar end truck) for clearance to set the magnet into. otherwise installation is going smooth. the instructions say to use "Zap-A-Gap" adhesive or similar. never heard of it, what kind of adhesive is it?

[norseman47]

The big secret is to really take your time. Plan every step like the old measure-twice-cut-once rule of thumb.

A client asked me to switch a MTH Doodlebug, with Proto 1, to an ERR setup. I chose the AC/DC Commander & Alco sound. Things went fine until I tested it it. All the MTH marker lights blew out in a flash! Jon suggested I use higher voltage LEDs. I got both grain-of-wheat & grain-of-rice bulbs. Of course neither would fit correctly without modifying the shell, which I wouldn't do. I found out that MTH makes their own constant volte boards, so I ordered exact fit MTH 6v LEDs, $6, a MTH 6v constant voltage board, $10 & was still able to fit the ERR commander, sound & voltage board in the same space as the original Proto setup. The MTH voltage board input is the programable strobe output from Jon's board. Works fine!

The nicest thing about the ERR setup, is it's hard to tell from full Protosound, unless you see the controller being used.

Rick

[Anonymous]

very nice, I just went to the website and ordered a steam sound unit for my berk. can't wait to install it.

[BobbyDing]

Thanks for the correction Bob. I had a feeling it was wrong when I was typing it. Figured somebody would correct me if it was.

Bobby

[lionelsoni]

Actually to 70 percent, not half.  That's a good way to drop voltage without making heat somewhere else.  However, it does draw some DC current, which may be hard on a small transformer.  I do it all the time with my Zs, but they're pretty big.  I added a full-wave option to my half-wave-rectifier-equipped locomotives so that they wouldn't shut down modern "transformers" on other folks' layouts.

[BobbyDing]

anjdevil2 - Just follow Jon's instructions. They're pretty good. If you have any questions, Jon is available via email and has helped me in the past with some questions, no problem.

Jaabat - I'd be happy to upgrade all your locos, however once here they may fall under eminent domain for this railroad!

Oh, by the way, the K-Lines answer to the smoking caboose TMCC/DCS problem was to add a switch that engages at single 1N4004 diode in series with the smoke resistor. Thereby cutting the voltage in half when in command mode.

Bobby

[Jumijo]

A heat sink would need to be installed as well, to protect the plastic from the heat of the smoke unit.

Geez...didn't they have that already in there???

Nope. There's a kitchen sink. Different animal all together.

Bobby. I have all my locomotives packed up and ready to ship to you. Please install sound boards in them and send back to me with a bill. Can you have them all done by next Friday? 

[anjdevil2]

Hey Bobby, I just ordered the BEEP kit, soooo....we'll see how it works inna couple of days.

I WAS brave enough to pop the top off my BEEP (geez, that was easy...), and saw the control board.  I see no reason to panick(yet!!).

Thanks Bob, I'll post when I get it updated. 

[Deputy]

A heat sink would need to be installed as well, to protect the plastic from the heat of the smoke unit.

Geez...didn't they have that already in there???

[Jumijo]

A heat sink would need to be installed as well, to protect the plastic from the heat of the smoke unit.

[Deputy]

Dep,
I was running in TMCC...  So they come out with TMCC, which requires a higher voltage, and they build their stuff for conventional running ONLY?    I'll repeat my earlier sentiment 'Why can't Lionel get this right?' Sounds like I need to open it up and take a gander again... maybe another purchase from ERR?

Brent:I think maybe they built some "smokers" before the TMCC came out. So they ended up not being compatible with the high voltage of TMCC. Or maybe they built them after TMCC, but they were "intended" for conventional operation. I think the fix is to install heavier gauge wiring in the caboose for both lights and smoke unit. I agree, though. Lionel should have at least come out with some kind of service bulletin on their website warning owners of rolling stock that has this problem to take them in to be upgraded or to upgrade them themselves. Can't have kids running a train that is a fire/burn hazard.

Dep 

[Anonymous]

Bobby,
Let me know what you do to your Lionel Caboose to get it to smoke... mine doesn't do anything either and I have taken the shell off and dried out all the smoke fluid and then rewetted the wick... still no smoke... Don't know why Lionel can't get this right...

Brent: Are you running the caboose in conventional mode or TMCC/DCS mode? There have been posts about the Lionel smoking cabooses and the problems they had running in TMCC/DCS mode. Some of the heating elements got so hot they melted parts of the caboose. Wiring fried too. Some of the older smoking cabooses were wired to run in conventional mode and can't take the high voltage of TMCC mode. just a heads-up

Dep

Dep,
I was running in TMCC...  So they come out with TMCC, which requires a higher voltage, and they build their stuff for conventional running ONLY?    I'll repeat my earlier sentiment 'Why can't Lionel get this right?' Sounds like I need to open it up and take a gander again... maybe another purchase from ERR?

[BobbyDing]

Paul - I'm not sure where the Sound Commander would go in a PE TMCC install, as it needs to be wired to the TMCC board to take advantage of the extra sound stuff under TMCC (can't get to those in conventional). I suppose there's no room for a speaker inside the loco shell. So there would probably need to be a tether of some type to the tender in any case. That would be a question for Jon at ERR I think. I'll try to include a photo of the inside of the PE Tender when I post some Docksider info next week. It was a tight fit, and not very pretty underneath. But it works.

anjdevil2 - If you download the manual for the Sound Commander (available at Jon's web site) I think it contains the basic Beep instructions. Basically... Remove shell, install speaker and circuit card under shell with 2 sided tape. Connect wires. Re install shell. Your done.

Bobby

[anjdevil2]

That upgrade in the PE is just too sweet!!  What a great difference!!!  I'd like more info on that BEEP.  15 minutes is about right for my attention span.....

[pmilazzo]

Wow, the Sound Commander in the Polar Express sounds great.  Like the fact you can flip a switch and have the air whistle or the digital one.  I take it all the sound commander kit fit inside the tender?

I planning on converting my Polar Express to TMCC with Jon's Cruise Commander for the PE but I also want sounds.  If the Sound Commander can be self contained in the tender, I think that would work out great.

Can you post a picture of the inside of the tender assuming that's where the speaker, original whistle and electronics are.  I think it would be a very tight fit.

Paul 

[Deputy]

Bobby,
Let me know what you do to your Lionel Caboose to get it to smoke... mine doesn't do anything either and I have taken the shell off and dried out all the smoke fluid and then rewetted the wick... still no smoke... Don't know why Lionel can't get this right...

 

Brent: Are you running the caboose in conventional mode or TMCC/DCS mode? There have been posts about the Lionel smoking cabooses and the problems they had running in TMCC/DCS mode. Some of the heating elements got so hot they melted parts of the caboose. Wiring fried too. Some of the older smoking cabooses were wired to run in conventional mode and can't take the high voltage of TMCC mode. just a heads-up

Dep

[Anonymous]

Bobby,
Let me know what you do to your Lionel Caboose to get it to smoke... mine doesn't do anything either and I have taken the shell off and dried out all the smoke fluid and then rewetted the wick... still no smoke... Don't know why Lionel can't get this right...

[BobbyDing]

John (jefelectric) - This link shows the video of the Docksider without the shell, and you can see the Sound Commander board hanging on the back for dear life .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrwbFMCAqrA

The shell fits rite over the Sound Commander just as you see it, AFTER I removed the bottom half of the backhead (is my terminology correct) that normally goes down to the frame in this area. This is no biggie, since the bottom half is not visible anyway. I did have to remove the plastic deck inside the back of the cab to make room for the capacitors, so the caps can be seen in the cab rite now. At least until I get around to painting them flat black. Then they should disappear. There were a few other things I had to do which are important. I'll try to get that info posted here ASAP. Probably not till Sunday or Monday night though (my weekend) in case anybody is interested in doing the same to their Docksider.

Deputy - That caboose is a K-Line Wood Sided Smoking Caboose that unfortunately I had to modify to get it to smoke. Previous to that the smoke was abismal at best. But I must say that K-Line did a fantastic job with it detail wise. Lots of details. It blows my Lionel smoking Caboose away completely (which also does not smoke....YET).

Wes, Yeah, that speaker is way too big of course. But always keep your eyes open for deals on small speakers if you plan on adding sound down the line (in locos or stationary). I've accumulated a shoebox load of them (all different) so I'm covered for the next ten years worth of projects!

Thanks to all who have commented. Just a couple more locos to go and then I can turn my attentions to the mess in my garage I call a layout. It's been held together with bubble gum and bandaids for over a year now. It needs attention badly!

Bobby

[Dr. John]

Great thread! Thanks for the info and videos, Bobby!