Attracting newcomers

[Kelly Shaw]

Attracting newcomers

[clinchfieldfan]

People today are "visual". If the general public sees how far O gauge has come forward over the years that should attract new blood into the hobby.
I believe that displays in public places such as malls, librarys, etc... would expose the hobby to new people. With all the varity available and the reasonable pricing on entry level sets visibility of the product is the best bet for O gauge's future.

[brianel027]

Well it's certainly been a topic of debate over the years why train sets aren't in bigger chain discount stores. There certainly must be some reason, whether on the fault of the train makers, their distributors and dealers or the retailers themselves. Certainly with places like Wal-Mart, Target, K-Mart, etc. being the places people shop at the holidays - if folks don't see trains in places like those, then they assume the trains aren't being made. I'm sure the dealer networks don't want more competition by having train sets for sale in department stores. But they already have competition with the big mail order train places.
There's also a perception from those who realize Lionel is still in business, that anything with that name on the box is expensive and collectible. The VFW here in Corning is having a raffle for a Lionel Pennsy Flyer Set. The guy said to me "Yeah, this set is worth over $400!" I assured the guy I know my Lionel trains and the list price is $179.99. I had to tell him that a couple times before conveniently pulling out the current catalog which I had with me, and showing him the list price.
The word needs to get out that these are still toys. But I don't know how you get folks to believe that when 90% of all train catalogs are NOT toys, but scale detailed and sized models, and priced accordingly. Go ahead, here's a test for you all. Take the Lionel, K-Line or MTH catalog and show it to a parent with young kids and see what that parent's reaction is. I've done this, and the results are less than pleasing. "Gee this stuff is expensive." "Most of this stuff are toys for adults, not kids." "We can take a vacation for the price of one train engine." Parents with kids are far more concerned with price, quality, play value and durability than prototypical detail, accurate sound systems and computer control. Yet the the train importers are in a do-or-die struggle to be number one and out do each other by attempting to satisfy an increasingly demanding adult audience that insists on more detail, realism and nothing less than total prototypical accuracy, down to the smallest details. This product development is expensive - even being done in China (though far less than stateside). All the expensive new tooling in recent years is aimed at adults. There's no new tooling being aimed at the starter market. Obviously there's no money to be made at it. Or more than likely any revenue is being aimed at the demanding adult market. Even the Kid's Club Lionel once had was dropped for whatever reason, lack of interest or financial.
First off, the hobby has to WANT newcomers and make them feel welcome. Then it has to act accordingly. The last Lionel catalog to feature starter items on the cover was Vol. 2, 1998 (though the current Vol. 2 does show Santa with the Santa Fe Super Freight Set). Take a look at Vol 2, 2000... you see an adult handing a child a Lionel steam engine with a listed on pages 12-13 at $1,249.95. Or Vol. 2, 2001... illustrated are some kids happlily looking at one boy holding a Lionel steam engine. One might assume the engine is a gift from the smile on the boy's face. It's just that engine on page 14 of that catalog cost $1,399.95!!! It's a JOKE! What kid gets a train engine costing over $1,000? Lionel minority owner Neil Young has stated that trains are a "great family hobby." Neil's right... they are... but families have to be able to find the trains and then afford them! Think about it this way.... I'm sure far more kids with trains in the 1940's and 1950's started off with a scout steamer or a simple Alco than a Trainmaster or a Hudson.
The whole hobby is bent on nostalgia. Constant product reissues of items made 50 years ago (but priced as instant collectibles). Nostalgia is fine in the sense that this is a fine family hobby. I find that people considering a train set for their child are not as concerned as we think with sophisticated computer control and digital sound... they're looking for something reminiscent of a simpler time. There's already enough computer this and that in our everyday lives, and much of that doesn't work either!!! The computer control should be transformer based, not locomotive based - so that people can step up to the system with out spending hundreds of dollars to do it. MTH kind of has the idea with the IR control system. And on the subject of technology, in the February 2003 'O' Gauge Railroading magazine, pages 7-8 and I quote, Lionel's "studies indicate that less than 25% of the market is currently buying and using command control." Reading further on "Lionel's research showed a lot of people were reluctant to accept this new technology and have stayed away from it." Yet the bulk of new locomotive offerings in the Lionel catalog are TMCC ready engines.

Some of the suggestions in the above survey are happening done now:
•There are more public train displays (though there can always be more). But those displays need to show starter items that folks can afford - not top level scale command engines.
•There are some quality entry level products...Lionel does have a decent selection of starter sets in a variety of pricxe ranges, which is good.
•But national media advertising is very very expensive. As are celebrity endorsements... Neil Young seldom hawks his own albums on the TV talk shows, much less trains. Do the train importers even provide co-op advertising for their dealers?
- So for starters, since there's already a established delaer network, the smaller local dealers should be able to discount product as easily as the mailorder places. We live in a Wal-Mart society... people WANT low prices. When was the last time you paid LIST price for ANYTHING? You go to buy a automobile, and you pull the dealer aside and ask for a better price. Small train dealers don't have the margins to do this. Nevermind that they're the ones that deal with the "sticker shock" when folks first walk into a train shop and see the prices.
- Train sets should have some road names that kids today might see, not kids from 50 years ago. Current roads may not help sell the set, but they will help to build a bond and foster interest when the kid see's the name on his toy train rolling down the real rails today.
- Every train set should have some kind of operating car, even a manual one. The Lionel Soo Line Dump Car from 1995 can be no more expensive to make than a tank car. But having a dump car like the Soo Line one in the current Great Northern Glacier Route Set would be more fun for a kid than a tank car. (And the spring mounted dump cars have long needed a simple design modification to prevent the tabs on the car frame from breaking so easily, especially on the dump cars with bins.)
- Advertising always costs money. Therefore you aim the advertising at your market. Every train set should have a button that says something like "I run Lionel Trains." Kids love buttons like that. Or there should be a coupon with the warranty card for a free book cover or a notebook. Maybe a kid-size T-Shirt, all saying something like above. You get the buzz going on trains by getting the kids to talk about trains. Or some type of promotional discount... buy some track and get X-amount off a train car purchase. Sure this costs money, but far less than a prime-time TV spot. I know K-Line did this with their Free Barrel Loader promotion. But that barrel loader looked a tad on the cheap side, and besides - Lionel is a much more recognized name than K-Line.
-Again, on marketing... Lionel's merchandising campaign seems to be successful. I've seen the Lionel logo on clocks, decorative tins and containers, key chains, watches, etc. This does put the name back in the public eye, and helps to get folks to think about Lionel again. Maybe to even look for the trains. Now if the same promotional drive could happen for kid related things... parents do tend to buy the items their kids ask for. Those tend to be items kids have seen and know about
- I've always felt one of the train mags should do a special additional issue at the holidays (September or October) totally devoted to newcomers, stater-type product and related articles. Though there are already books on this, a magazine gets better exposure and distribution. I've seen Classic Toy Trains for sale at newstands, but not books on building train layouts. I know that infomercials are annoying sometimes, but they're everywhere. They must be cost-effective, as there seem to be quite a few of them. Maybe the train importers could cooperate on just one joint venture that would benefit all of them.
- Uniformity. Of course, since the companies are in such a serious competition, I doubt this will happen. But now Lionel, MTH and K-Line all have track systems in their starter sets that are completely incompatible. This makes it all the more confusing and expensive for dealers who end up having to stock inventory or completely drop one line, not to mention the confusion for the newcomer. At least K-Line's snap-track can adapt with regular tubular "0" and allows a small layout to be built on a hollow-core door (which is very convenient and moveable for a young family).

Also keep in mind that it has been reported that American's now move more than ever before due to the economy. And that houses are smaller. Meanwhile the trains keep getting bigger. FasTrack will offer little more than an oval on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. I'm sure that new FasTrack offerings will include larger radius curves, not smaller. And while the molded roadbed is convenient for floor layouts and handles easily, it does take up a lot of space on a train board. I know everyone (except me and a scant few others) seems to hate 027 track. But there was a time when several lines of trains came with it, so it was easy to mix and match.

Now while I'm blabbing, I have never talked about this before. I was hired at K-Line to be in their engineering department a couple years ago, just before Bob Grubba came aboard there. Things didn't work out for a couple of reasons, and to some degree, I do have some regrets. I absolutely believe I belong in this hobby somewhere. But whether I would have made the cut after Grubba was hired, I'll never know. I suspect not. I also strongly suspect, having seen the direction K-Line (and the whole hobby is going) that management and I would not have seen eye-to-eye on many, many things. In the time I was preparing to make the big move, I was also excitedly working on new ideas: design mock-ups of new engines using the MP-15 and S-2 diesel frames, operating box cars, improvements to existing items, etc. I had built a universal operating Icing Station that I thought would be a sure winner. I had a notebook full of new ideas and drawings, wondering "have these things ever been thought of before?" They certainly haven't been done. But my whole thinking is based on simplicity... how to make things that not only are affordable, but will make the trains more fun for KIDS and adults. What good is some nifty-neato accessory that costs more than a family can reasonably afford. Besides, I figure once you get a family to buy a train set, and the kid shows interest because he's having fun, then the parents may be willing to spend a little more money on more expensive items as they see their child has a growing interest - just as they did a generation ago. I had my first Lionel set before I was a week old... trains have been in my blood ever since. I've never forgotten the fun I had as a kid with my trains, which is why I have trains today. I know train sets will never be the big item they once were. There is far more competition for entertainment and toy dollars than ever before. The toy industry is BIG business. But I also firmly believe there is still interest - I've seen it. When I used to sell train sets, single mothers were some of my best customers because they abhored the violence and isolation behavior of video games and wanted something for their boys they they could do together. This is a key point. I'm not against the technology or prototypical trains for adults. Aside from the drive for K-Line, Lionel and MTH to outdo eachother, obviously this is where the market seems to be because this is what is being made. If I had the financial means and backing, I think I'd start my own company. Yeah, we need another company making trains right? But I see so many things that aren't being done, so many simple design improvements, I have to wonder, could I do it? I've seen the excitement when kids would view my portable door layout and have a chance to run the trains and operate some of the simple things I made. Kids would say "that is so cool" because they never get to see simple toys that work and allow imagination. We stiffle imagination with digital toys that make noise and flash lights and don't work much beyond the holiday season.
Well, my humble opinion, long winded as it is. Wonder if I can get a book deal out of this?
brianel

[Anonymous]

WOW! I seriously think that you should become Lionel's new president! With your ideas you could probably be successful starting up a whole new company of your own in the O gauge market!

As far as having department stores being competition to hobby stores if they sold trains, I actually think that they could boost hobby stores business. Newcomers to the hobby would get involved because they saw a set at Wal-Mart and bought it and then when they decided to expand and build a layout, they would go to a hobby store to get everything they need. If it wasn't for that set in Wal-Mart, the hobby store wouldn't have had their business.

Having ads for trains on TV would be a HUGE help. Just think of how many toys are promoted to kids on TV. Kids see something on TV and they want it and will do anything to get it because it looked so cool on TV. I actually do remember once seeing a commercial for Lionel starter sets on TV once a very long time ago. t wasn't during children's programming, though. Recently a Lionel layout with a NYC Flyer set and a Port of Lionel City Dive Team set with accessories was a prize on the Price is Right. It actually was featured twice. The first time it was in a showcase and nobody won it. In the credits at the end of the show when it listed the companies that provided the prizes, Lionel was in there. That was a good publicity idea for Lionel, but there's so much more they ought to do.

I imagine that your accessory ideas would be great. I'd try getting patents for them and offerign them to the manufacturers. You could be like Richard G. Smith that created all those Lionel and American Flyer accessories on his own and sold the ideas to them(remember that CTT article about the AF barrel loader prototype?). While we're on the subject of accessory ideas, something I've thought of is combining Lionel's operating milk car and operating ice depot into one accessory. Have a refrigerator car that gets ice put into it and unloads milk cans (or fruit crates, if the PFE car from the ice depot was used). I'm surprised no one's thought of that before.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Those are both excellent responses, and I can only add one twist to all that.

Real railroads are no longer glamorous! Kids don't say they want to be engineers anymore. The average person has no connection to a train, except that they may have had to wait for one at a grade crossing once. Railroads used to be this country's lifeblood, passing through every small town. Now everywhere you look, right of ways are being abandoned, and turned into trails. It seems to be an uphill battle, and the grade gets steeper every day!

How do we reach the next generation when all they want to do is play video games?
If we can't make it interesting, we are dinosaurs, and don't look for help from the real railroads.

[Anonymous]

How true you are! The real railroads still are the lifeblood of the country and we'd be lost without them. However, most people don't know or realise that. The majority of products you buy were probably once shipped by rail. Amtrak should do more to promote passenger trains as an alternative to air travel. There's been several topics on the Trains Magazine forums about what needs to be done to help passenger rail. North America is behind other parts of the world when it comes to passenger trains. Did you know that in France and Germany the governments have plans for high-speed rail to completely eliminate domestic air travel within the next few years? We need to get Amtrak (and the railroad industry in general) back into the public eye.

[Anonymous]

Been to a train show lately. Look around. It's easy to notice the gray hair and the beer bellies. There is no youth to be found. People that go to train shows are just reliving their childhood and having fun. Just a guess, but the average age of a train collector has to be 50+.
Electric Trains are no longer the high tech toy of the century. The youth of today wants to play with their computer or video games and not build anything like a model railroad. One visit to Toy's r Us will show you that things have changed sharply- no trains, plastic models, chemistry sets, erector sets or anything that requires assembly.
In general, modeling as a whole is a dead hobby for the new generation.
As more cities expand futher into surburbia, we should see a slow reassurgence of the railroad industry primarily in the commuter area. However, I do not believe that even this will spark an interest in model railroading ever again.
Give Lionel 20 more years max and they will disappear, because their customers will be passing on. The best thing that we as collections, hobbiests and modelers can do is build large portable layouts that hopefully will pass on to the next generation and be displayed, so that the hobby and an era is not forgotten. Model railroading like car collecting will always be with us, but unfortunately I see it as a very small community of people in times ahead.

[brianel027]

Good comments here... there is a difference though between "negativity" and being realistic. Now Big Boy, I don't know know if "glamorous" is the right word. Railroading at one time was dirty and dangerous work. Camelback steamers were called "widow-makers" with good reason. Certainly railroads today are more streamlined in purpose, function and equipment. Not as many roads, not as much variety, and not as much a part of people's daily lives. In nearby Sayre, Pa., the whole town once revolved around the Lehigh Valley railroad. Railroads were big employers. In any given town, folks must have known a few people that worked for the railroad, or directly benefited economically from railroad jobs.
As I said above, I don't think those glory days of toy trains (or real trains) will ever be repeated. BUT, kids still like trains. My neighbor brought his 8-month old son over to see my layout... the boy was in wide-eyed amazement! Another neighbor kid was over and he couldn't stop talking about it. He ran to get his dad, talking so fast, all about these trains he had never seen before!
Dlagrua is right on unfortunately when he metioned train shows. I like the smaller shows though, and those are the ones where you tend to see families and kids. I used to have a traveling door layout I took to shows. At one show, I was right next to this very large modular Lionel layout featuring all the latest SCALE items with all the latest digital sound and operating electronics. And there I am with my 027 trains on my door layout. But people were telling me all weekend they liked my layout more - especially the folks with kids. I think this is because they saw my layout as "a possibility" for them. No way were they going to be able to afford to build that other layout. My layout didn't scare them off... instead it planted a seed. Dads and especially moms asked a lot of questions. I think because moms tend to manage the family finances, they were impressed with what I did: the cost, the creativity, the play value, the imagination. These are things that are sorely missing from the hobby today. Railsounds may be cool, but it also stifles a child's imagination. If you ever watch a kid play with Lionel trains, they like making their own noises. Of course the "kids" playing with trains today are in their 40's, 50's and 60's... I think their wives would have them committed if they were going "woooo, wooooo, chuggga chuggga" while running their trains. Of course, we don't let the REAL kids play with trains because they're valuable collectibles or cost $500+ for the engine alone. When I had my door layout, EVERY kid that was good and waited a turn got the chance to actually RUN the trains! EVERY KID!! The same cannot be said for that other layout where there was a rope around it! Oh, I forgot to mention, I didn't have a rope.
The editors of both 3-rail train mags say otherwise, but in this sense, yes, the hobby is slowly heading downhill. Not only do we currently have the big 3 - Lionel, MTH and K-Line - but there's a host of others: Weaver, Williams, Atlas, 3rd Rail Models, Industrial Rail and so on (and lets not forget the new S-scale companies). No way will the current market sustain all these companies... that's not negativity.... that's being real. The front-line offensive should have been directed at the youth market years ago with the same exact vigor (if not MORE) that the companies have put into courting the scale-sized adult market. Even before Railking came around, I made the suggestion that Lionel or K-Line should come out with an "027"-ized Dash-8 or SD90-Mac... some kind of representation of modern motive power in a 13-14 inch length and a top 3-1/2 inch height. BUT all the money for new tooling is being thrown into the adult market. And look how quick the adults turn: a few years ago, MTH could do no wrong - Lionel was lagging behind. K-Line was junk: rehashed Marx. NOW Lionel has raised the bar and folks are saying MTH lacks the scale detail of the new Lionel product. And K-Line is also keeping the pace if not raising the "scale" bar themselves.
As dlagrua mentioned train shows above, here's another thing to notice... the blowouts. Looking through both train mags, I see more and more full page ads with drastically reduced prices. WHY? I don't think the prices would be getting cut so much if the stuff was selling. We all know there's just too much product in an already saturated market (with the economy and job picture in the U.S. looking none-too-good). Many adults already have too many trains. I know many, including myself, who have become more discriminating and selective with train purchases.
So one might think it might just be worth the creativity, effort, time and investment to try and grow the market right?
Another thing that is imperative today - starter sets are the business card to the future and MUST be made with that thought in mind. Since national advertising is prohibitively expensive, the quality of the starter set BECOMES the SOLE advertisement. With all the competition for a family's discretionary dollars, that first train set had better speak well of the company that made it. It had better not look cheap, or not work right out of the box. Otherwise a potential customer maybe lost forever. We look back on the glory days of Lionel today and think of the F-3, the Trainmaster, the Hudson and we forget about the dreaded Scout steamers and the single axle drive Alcos that could barely pull themselves. Newcomers do this too. They hear the name Lionel and equate it with rugged diecast, all metal, high quality, durable paint jobs - when in fact it hasn't always been that way.
Just a few more thoughts.... brianel

[Anonymous]

Perhaps my post was a bit negative but I'm trying to be realistic about the hobby. The local train/hobby shop in my town seems busy at times but the owners of the store and the customer base appear near retirement age. I've never seen a child or adolescent in the store looking at the merchandise.
I do agree that small children do tend to like trains though. Perhaps it is because they are yet computer savy and at an age when looks of a toy means more play value than something which requires thought. I believe that there may be a small chance that we can bring youth into this hobby but it will require giving a train set to a young child and playing with the set with him/her. However in my heart I still believe that toy trains will one day soon go the way of the dinosaur. That is why I intend to build a large working portable (break apart) layout before my time is up. Perhaps by leaving a finished working layout for my sons (and future grandchildren), one of them will pick up and carry the torch into the mid 2000's. It would be really sad if my lifelong collection disappears after all that I've put into it .Perhaps the next genration of LaGruas at middle age ( my age group) will start collecting again. Maybe it's just a hobby for old folks who want to remember the " good old days" but they certainly were. I have fond memories of the Lionel Showroom on 26th street, Madison Hardware, Julies toys on 23 rd street, The Macy's layout and the Gilbert Hall of Fame that were all within a few blocks of each other. The kids of today have no idea what fun they've missed.

[Lafondue]

well, lots of good idea in those post so not much to ad except one point the fact that model railroading offer very good value. If you buy a set /locomotive/rolling stock today it will still be enjoyable 10 years and more down the road and will be still compatible with item selling then. Probably not looking as great as the latest model and not have all the new feature, but how far can we go to recreate the perfect boxcar. Not like today PC game, video game or most other toys. And don't forget once you turn the power off the train still here, Pc game and video game disapear.

[Anonymous]

Interesting topic. I, and my kids are the people you are talking about. I never owned a train set as a kid. I have a 6 year old girl and 3 boys (5,3 2). When my 5 year old boy was 3 years old, a freind (maried to a british lady) introduced me to Thomas the Tank Engine video nrated by Ringo Star. I then found about Thomas, Percy, Gordon etc. and bought my kid the wooden trains and tracks. He liked them so much and preferred to any other high teck toy. His younger brothers got into the Thomas train set craze too and now we have more than 100 wooden trains and all kinds of accesoriies and the kids build an entire city with bridges, tunnels, airports, fire stations etc. on the carpet in the basement. I got them some Lionel battery powered trains that also run on Thomas train tracks (and some Brio trains) and they loved them. I showed them a Lionel catalogue and an MTH one I got from a local train shop (and yes, all I saw was grey haired men with beer bellies in the shop) and my kids now want the trains without the faces that make sound and smoke.
What I am saying is that the Thomas the Tank Engine and Brio generation might progress to the Lionel etc. train systems and save the hobby. The obstacle is my wife and the labeling of these trains for kids 8 and older. Wife argues that trains are expensive without much educational value. She said they have enough Thomas trains. Buy something else like Legos for modeling and creativity etc. The kids have a computer and all sort of PC games but stick with Thomas Trains computer games.
So how could I convince my wife about the value of a Lionel set for the kids development and where to go from here. I am sure a lot of potential hobbiest are in my shoes especially around Christmas time.

[brianel027]

Dear fmuakkassa, I had my first Lionel set before I was even ONE WEEK old. The interest stayed. While friends got into drugs and drinking, my interest in trains (and the real ones too) continued all through high school. Aside from the expense, this is a WONDERFUL FAMILY HOBBY where kids can have the chance to not only play, but learn about planning, building, wiring and maintenance. I've known single mother's who bought trains for their son's... they might not have know as much about the trains - but they really got into painting the little people and making scenery and buildings together.
I have been building a train set with a nephew. It pleases me to no end to have watched his interest increase. I planned his first track plan, then he came up with new ideas for it. He helped build the layout, and the pride he takes in telling his friends "I did this" is worth every cent I've invested. I worry sometimes when I find something real cheap - I found a Lionel steam engine at the Salvation Army for 95¢!!!! HE LOVED THAT! He knows a deal by now. Sure it's a bottom line 8700 Rock Island engine but it's red (his favorite color) and it's his favorite engine. I did some work on it - added a headlight and a lot of weight, improved the traction and now it pulls 12-15 cars no sweat!! We design our own operating accessories, like an manually operating convery belt which we cobbed from a kid's toy. We took another kid's toy crane, fixed it up, strung it up through the layout and now it operates manually from the front of the layout. I took a used MPC Alco FA and repainted it to Conrail for him since he likes Conrail. But the important thing is I listen to him - he comes up with ideas, and I try to translate them to reality. And I look for ways that he can participate in the process. He bugs me now to use the power drill and the handsaw. One time he got a small shock from the power drill just after I got one (an old one drill which has since been replaced). I smiled, shook his hand and said "congratulations my boy - you're on your way to being a man - you got your first shock." He laughed and told his friends. It's natural for kids to want to "think" they're being a grownup, even though they're not.
Now I'm NOT saying you want your kids to get a shock from a power tool. No, but I am saying if you and your wife choose, it can be a fun and educational process that the kids will never forget.
And as far as prices, just keep your eyes peeled at yard sales, used toy places, e-bay, train shows, ads in the train magazines and so on... deals can be found, but you have to look for them. Which is also part of the fun for my nephew. And he'll keep his eyes open at toy stores too for things we can use on the layout... which makes him THINK and be CREATIVE!
Not many kids today have trains, and he takes pride in telling other kids he has a train set. PS: I also got him wood trains when he was younger and he liked them too.

And yes, he likes video games too. But he still enjoys the trains and the bond that him and his Uncle Brian share with the trains. Come to think of it, at one time, that theory was the backbone of Lionel's marketing.

brianel - still a kid at heart when it comes to trains!

[Anonymous]

Yes! I think our hobby needs nore exposure. Along with the manufacturers of ALL scales and the local hobby shop we need to open our layouts to the public. Don't get frightened!!!!
What I'm talking about is inviting a co-worker with kids to see your layout, a neighbors kids or a family member. How many of us never do this. Well, ya to our buddies but I'm 51 and yes I've interested one who was never in the hobby but I try to invite kids with there parents, even teenagers that I know are safe(pardon the expresion) to drop by watch and even get their hands dirty. Shockingly my own kids friends who are in their late teens and early twenties are getting interested. (Scared the crap outta me). One is now making plans to get into HO (oh God). His family had a large layout years ago and dumped it. But now he wants into the hobby. Another two work on my layout every few weeks. I even got a call from a parent saying thanks (Scared again). Basically what I'm saying is the almost old geezers like myself are a lot of fun and certainly enjoyable but watch the faces of the younger folk (eek, i sound old) and watch for the joy, you might just be helping make the future enjoyable for yourself in the next 30 or so years.

[aiireland]

great stuff, but i have to make a comment on the collectors vs. the operators. A few years ago will visiting relatives out of town we stop by a co-worker of my brother-in-laws for a christmas open house. I noticed the nice O-gauge train around the christmas tree a started up a conversation about Lionel trains. He informed me that the train around the tree was a Williams model and that he would never think of running one of his Lionels on the floor and with all these people around. After talking with him for awhile i realized this guy has some stuff and i wanted to see it. More or less i begged him to let me see his lionel collection. Reluctantly he gives in and takes me down to his basement den. Expecting to see a over the top layout, i see nothing. "wheres your layout i ask?" Turns out he is only a collector. Says it will be his retirement savings. I'd guess about $50,000+ all neatly packed away, all in the boxes all stored in big plastic bins in a built-in cabinat. (all late 1980's -now )He wouldn't even open any of the boxes for me to take a look (i guess the elements may damage the paint) The only track he had was the small oval around the tree.

Not quit sure what my point is, but i think there are too many people who think they are more a collectable then a toy train or model train, and thus not interested. This guys attidude was the more people who ran, played and operated the better for him. Someday he was going to cash-in. And he could be right. But he had no interest in railroading at all. He thought i was the crazy guy and couldn't believe at times i would actually highball my trains around my modest (very modest) layout.

I told his as far as his retirement, Mutual funds, CDs and the stock market. PLAY WITH YOUR TRAINS. they are way too cool. share the joy!
ai

[brianel027]

aiireland, that fellow is going to be real disappointed, and I agree with your attitude. The stuff he's collecting isn't not going to appreciate in value that much. The reason the postwar trains have been collectible is because kids had them, played with them, dreamed about having more, and now those kids (adults) have a frame of reference and are buying back their memories. But even many postwar prices are down on things that are not in pristine condition. When I got back into the hobby, MPC boxcars were going for on average $25-$50. The 9223 Reading Box Car had a book value of $45. I wasn't paying that nor did I. I got one for $12 mint in the box at a sale where the guy needed surgery, his insurance wouldn't cover it, and he was desperate for fast cash. So he had to sell many of his "retirement" trains.
The collectors and the collector mentality certainly did help this hobby through some lean times. But it has also hurt this hobby. Especially when folks are afraid to let kids play with the trains for fear of ruining their value! It's a darn good thing that our dad's didn't feel that way years ago. Hard to believe but there was a time when a young boy could play with a Lionel F-3 engine with loads of operating cars... I know... that kid was me. And many others like me.
I dare say most collectors would have a fit to see a young boy playing with those kinds of trains today! Yet they FAIL to realize the REASON these trains are collectible now is because kids WERE allowed to play with them.
Whenever I see the words "collectible" printed on the box of something I laugh. Manufacturers don't determine what is collectible... the market does. And if the market has no frame of reference (ie: how many kids have train sets today?) then the product isn't collectible because no one has any appreciation or a bond with that product.
And this is what the future holds for this hobby unfortunately.

brianel

[Anonymous]

Well, I myself am a full-blown collector. I'm one of those guys who's out looking for rare variations and trying to find the best pieces and everything. However, I can't stand to see these trains just packed away and sitting. I run all of my trains, including my rare and valuable collectors' items. Now, I'm very careful with them and don't have big crashes or anything like that, but I do run them. They've lasted for decades having been run. Running them more isn't going to hurt their condition. I have a layout with many trains and operating accessories on it and I get great pleasure out of using it. It's just everything layed out on green carpeting, but that's the way I like it. It reminds me of the kind of layout that somebody might have had 50 or so years ago and that's what I like about it. Now, my collection is too large to all fit on the layout, so I have shelves on all the walls around it. I can't stand to have my trains packed away in boxes where no one can see them. What's the point then? I could have some Rubbermaid containers with bricks in them and say they're filled with Blue Comets and no one would know the difference. If you're collecting toy trains just for the money-don't. I have no intention of selling any of the pieces in my collection unless I come across another identical piece in better condition. The point of collecting trains should be a love for these beautiful old toy trains. One of the things that brings me the most joy is showing people my layout and collection. I take a great deal of pride in it and really love to see others take an interest it-especially kids. Oh, by the way, I'm not a middle-aged guy with grey hair and a beer belley. I'm 17 years old, so there are young people out there who love toy trains too and have an appreciation for all those great trains that were made years ago. Also, for anyone who's interested, there are some pictures of pieces from my collection and layout on www.geocities.com/tintracks .

[Anonymous]

As a Conductor with New Jersey Transit, I get an opportunity to talk with ALOT of people. Almost invariably, when a family with young children boards and I'm punching tickets, the talk turns to toy trains. "He's ALWAYS liked trains", the mom will say about her 6 year old. THAT's my 'in'. It's really easy to talk about trains then; ask if they went to the hobby store recently, if they KNOW where a hobby store is, what kind of trains they like, and just generally talk up the hobby. In a Conductor's uniform, talking about toy trains, I know that I can make a great impression, not only on the children, but the parents as well. I can speak of my experiences with real trains and the ones in my basement. I can let them know where the nearest hobby store is to them. I can let them know about local train shows and exhibits. I can talk about new, old, big, small ~ whatever will get that gleam in the eye!
After that, it's up to the manufacturers to KEEP them in the hobby. Therein lies MY question ~ What are the manufacturers doing to KEEP those newcomers? Offering 700 dollar engines? That'll attract some, maybe, but probably turn off alot more. My 10 year old knows a wheel arrangement on a steam loco, but he doesn't know whether it has a feedwater heater to be prototypically correct. All he knows is that it's black and it runs and he can blow the whistle and watch it come out of the tunnel. He knows he can make a new layout with switches and operate a barrel loader or a milk car. He knows a frieght train doesn't always need a caboose but it sure is fun when a lighted one is on the back as it goes through that tunnel again! Do those trains and accessories need to be more detailed to keep his interest? No. They have to WORK RELIABLY. They have to be within the average budget for TOYS.
Kids will stay with the hobby if adults allow the hobby to grow within the family. Parents who think nothing of driving their precious cargo to soccer games or volunteer to be coaches or Scout leaders should spend as much time with their children developing creativity. What better way than an evening , or even ONE hour during the week, with the family layout? Even when it's not being worked on, the family can talk about it, plan it, dream a little. The kids walk by the train table, and they WANT to get going with it. That feeling of anticipation, seeing the silent trains, knowing the smiles and laughter that it brings when they all get together again ~ THAT was the vision so many years ago.
How to attract newcomers? Talk about trains. Keep the enthusiasm high. And don't worry if something is 'collectible'. Childhood memories are priceless. You know. You're thinking about them right now.

[brianel027]

SASK TINPLATER, I really like your attitude. There is a difference - a BIG difference - between a collector like yourself and the collector who stashes stuff away thinking those orange boxes each have a VanGogh in them. For a 17 year old you have a real positive outlook on the hobby and the fun you can have. Collectors like you are A-OK in my book.

TRAINBUD, thank you. Well said. You summed up the whole reason why so many of us still buy trains after all these years. There are others like you and I who do everything we can to promote the hobby. The MANUFACTURERS have to step up to the station platform and do their part. Really, it shouldn't be up to us at all... it's up to them.

The other thing I find interesting is that right now "Public Train Diplays" is the lead suggestion. I wonder, who will do these displays? And what kind of diplays will they be? I know I did it for 8 years. With a small layout that ANY parent could look at and believe they could do the same thing with their kids. But after a while I got tired of doing all the work for free while helping some dealer down the aisle sell trains because he doesn't bother to have a display. I know, because dealers actually thanked me many times for helping them to sell train sets. The year I didn't show up with my layout some TCA collector guy said to me "This is a shame, what are the kids going to see? There's nothing here for them!" Exactly. I mean, doing it did bring me a lot of joy and I learned an lot from listening to parents and kids. Which is why I am so VOCAL about this topic because I don't believe that K-Line, Lionel or MTH listen to the people I talked with... they listen to full blown collectors who are TCA members at YORK. Why is why 90% of today's product is expensive (unreliable) rolling computers on wheels and scale sized rolling stock that NO kid is EVER going to get as a gift.... unless his dad is a rock star.
brianel

[mackb4]

Amazing how people think alike.This has been an idea that alot of toy train collectors have pondered for several years.But are the manufacturers listening ?I sent e-mails to the "O" gauge manufacturers some time ago addressing this same issue.With the "cheap" labor from the oversea's factories from "communist" countries such as China,why can't Lionel,MTH,and the others put out cheap,but not junk low-end starter sets.Heck Marx years ago put out goobs of dime store trains that had to be made pretty darn good,cause their still everywhere,so why can't the crazy money hungry outfits do the same ? WHEW..got that off my shoulders.Hey I got two young boys that put down the Playstation2 to help set up a small layout cause they thought the "ole" trains from my youth were just the coolest thing since command control <or is that sliced bread...ah command control >.These toy train companies just can't figure out how to go out of business.I can...,the way their doing business.All these replies should be sent to all the manufacturers to give them a idea on how to run a business .And it comes from those how know.The people who have supported their stupid butts !Folks who will be able to buy their trains when we are all gone.Or will the be gone before us ?Just my thoghts.

[Anonymous]

The little kids (several different families) who drop by my house want to PLAY WITH THE TRAINS. They want to run the 027, build the Playskool track all over the floor, are dying to touch the HO (not yet, they can't!). They beg their folks to come back to see the trains. We need stuff kids can have fun with. The Lego layouts are "covered" with kids at train shows. DCC can be a way for the tech savvy generation to get in and have fun. I agree that there is little connection between trains and real life for too many people, but there still seems to be something about them with universal appeal.